kaellok

Most of my friends have very long to-read lists already, without dumping a 1000 page novel on them, so it's been slow going. I've been sneakily tricking them into reading Mistborn, without telling them it's a trilogy until it's too late for them to stop reading. I currently have two that have started Mistborn, one that's starting WoK when she has time to read instead of listen to it at work (apparently fluff-type books work well for that, but there's too much in WoK that missing a page or so is a rather big deal haha), and one that's halfway through WoR. The spread of influence is accelerating, as more and more friends bring their recommendations to bear, so I'm guessing we'll all (about 8 or 9 of us) will have read basically everything Sanderson by the time Book 3 is out

Well, you could take it from the Stormfather's mouth: We've seen the Stormfather be wrong before, so this isn't necessarily the final word, but I think that exploring whether Jezrien is the drunk at the party in the Prologue of WoK would be more fruitful at this point.

1. Short-term, the nobility of Alethkar will never have been more united--you're dead-on here, I think. Mid- and long-term remains to be seen. This will absolutely not apply to home-province people at all, though; they're in open revolve in Kholinar it seems, after all. 2. Amaram will become the new highprince in Sadeas's place, and will be head of a minority of leaders opposed to Dalinar. They'll likely still work together on the field of battle, but that is it. Remember, Dalinar had the chance to stop Amaram cold, but let him go. There is no evidence to present to others regarding Amaram's guilt rather than Dalinar's word and the word of men sworn to him. No chance of that holding up in a formal court. 3. Not sure on this one, maybe. Pre-WoR, I would have assumed he'd be capable of doing something like that, but I have serious doubts about him taking any large-scale leadership of anything now. He's likely to be working with whoever is in charge, and helping to keep them honest, though. Maybe Laral will have a role to play, as well, by the end. 4. People are dumb. They will not believe, and will attempt to profit from the end of the world itself. It should be the end of division between men and nations, but it won't be. 5. I'm very curious where Jasnah will show up. And if Wit will be with her, or take off on his own. Possibly the single thing I am most curious about which is impossibly fruitless to ponder regarding Book 3. 6. Agreed. 7. I really freaking hope that they maintain communication. BAD THINGS happening because of lack of communication that could have been avoided upsets me a lot. I'm counting on Sanderson to remember that in Book 2 Adolin and Shallan were essentially texting each other using those fabrials, and so Kaladin will be forced to take one with him. Especially since he can fly, and travel farther/faster than anyone else. Letting him wander around without an easy way to stay in touch is just stupid (from the PoV of anyone trying to save the world, that is). 8. Agreed. And I'm going to add one! 9. When Szeth shows up at Urithiru as a KR, it's going to rock the Alethi nobility nearly to the point of rebellion. Edit: I basically agree with most of what you've said, though! Wish I didn't have to wait years to be able to see how it all plays out.

"The king frowned. 'Then who...? Restares? Sadeas I never thought...'" (The Way of Kings, Prologue, p.34 hardcover). There were three people that Gavilar thought would have him assassinated: Thaidakar being likely, Restares and Sadeas only possibilities. So, Gavilar clearly thought that the potential for betrayal was there. If we take the Sadeas PoV scenes in WoR, it doesn't really seem that strange. The only strangeness is taking what we have seen from someone else's perspective (Dalinar) and applying it to the newly added Sadeas PoV. I do, however, very strongly believe that he was corrupted by Nergaoul along the way. All that talk of the Thrill, and missing it; likely, if it had continued to affect him as strongly as it had in his youth, then he would not have engineered plans that would result in escalating conflict and confrontations.

If you know someone is spying on you, and you know who the spy is, the absolute best way to deal with them is to feed them the information you want them to have. To let them believe that you don't know there's a spy, give them correct information until you are able to set them up for a disastrous confrontation in your favor. Sanderson is aware of this, and has used it before. Taravangian can be seen as 'spying' on Odium through Moelach; trusting what information you get from it implicitly is foolhardy at best. T himself refers to it as evil and powerful. Until we know what causes the Death Rattles (yes, yes, Moelach does; but not everyone Rattles--why do they occur at all? Does Moelach have any control at all over this? Is it a byproduct that happens because of some power that Moelach is hesitant to do without? Did the Nightmother Curse Moelach this way while granting the Boon of being Unmade? <Insert random other theories here>) then we should analyze them, yes, and look at them as a possible truth that Odium doesn't mind being shared, rather than the truth and secrets to defeating Odium.

Or, they talked and realized that everyone couldn't go on anymore. They knew that Taln was dead, and were unsure regarding Kalak. Ishar proposed that one going back may be enough. We don't know when Ishar proposed this; it is equally likely to have happened after the battle than before. Based on the description of Jezrien and Kalak at this time, it seems even more likely to me that Ishar was desperate to propose any theory that means they don't have to go back. Communication failures in war; sometimes you get 8 reports of one thing, and none of another (see Kaladin's PoV of the battle where Tien died. Now imagine that, instead of some tiny border dispute, it's the final battle for the preservation of all of humanity on the planet.) You added emphasis to this line. At no point does Jezrien indicate that he wouldn't call only one of the Heralds dying a miracle. As Argent stated above, it's a common saying, too. Kaladin's surviving the Highstorm was also referred to as a miracle. Too, Jezrien might consider that he lived, instead of dying, to be a miracle. Kalak thinks to himself that "Had the other eight all died? It was possible. The battle had been so furious this time, one of the worst." By adding your own emphasis, you are disregarding what Jezrien actually said--it's a miracle. Once you've decided to make an unpleasant decision, such as betraying an Oath that you have held to for thousands of years, it's best to be done with it quickly, I'd imagine. And if Kalak disagreed with their decision, what could he have done against it? Die? You're saying that they murdered one Herald, but were too cowardly to murder two? And that in the case that Kalak would need to be killed, they let Jezrien stay behind to do it by himself, rather than all facing him as they presumably did against Taln? No, it's an intriguing theory, and an interesting one. However, I don't see any actual evidence to suggest that Taln being the lone casualty was anything short of a miracle, which left the rest a chance to seize the opportunity to be free of millennial torture.

The second paragraph unarguably contains great insights, particularly "I am a stick" found in the second line. However, it is mostly forming the foundation of the question, rather than the answer and confirmation of what follows.

Here's what I've been able to find: And also this:

I'm less and less certain there is anything big here, rather than Sanderson occasionally having fun. "To kill the glory of ignorance [is] a work of art. Death wears white recorded in blood," is from Szeth's chapter titles in WoK. Eshonai's chapter titles in WoR are "Narak last legion. The rider of the storms [is] a form of power. New rhythms [have] a part to play." If we look just at Kaladin, just the chapter titles from each part, we can sorta kinda maybe get some kind of a coherent thought; some more than others. "Bridge Four Ideals, Walking the Grave Hero." "Swordmaster bruises lights in the storm, assassin monsters, the one who hates burdens." "Scars [are] one form of justice. Patriots into the sky. The rules of the game: Whitespine uncaged, to kill the wind never again." "Fleet the one who killed promises. Stormblessings from a nightmare vigil striding the storm." "The hidden blade to fight the rain for glory lit the one who saves." Really, only the last one makes much sense (and it does, but in a 'oh, hey, that just happened' kind of way). So, I'm likely to keep playing around with these for the next few days, but I am having serious doubts as to whether there's anything real here.

I've seen the single chapter names that almost definitely refer to something inside of it or something else, but I'm trying to see if there's a connection on a larger scale. The Excel spreadsheet is coming along nicely, but nothing is immediately obvious yet, half done with transcribing the pertinents from WoR.

So, I never pay attention chapter titles at the time of reading, because all too often they give hints of what is to come, and I prefer to be absolutely surprised as much as possible. Recently, however, I read Part titles in the table of contents--and realized that the chapter titles in WoK and WoR both are the keteks that are featured in the book. "Above silence. The illuminating storms. Dying. Storm's Illumination. The silence above." from WoK and "Alight. Winds' approach. Deadly. The approach. Winds alight." from WoR. I thought this was neat, but not particularly special, but it got me looking at other titles in the book. For instance, the prologue/epilogue titles also seem to form a sentence or idea, and may be the beginning of a super-ketek (although doubtful). "To kill of most worth" is a concept that Kaladin struggles with in WoK. "To question art and expectation" could be seen as a large part of Shallan's arc in WoR. I then started looking into chapter titles themselves, broken down by where they appear (either as an interlude, or where they fall into a Part. There seem to be messages already, but before I invest a significant amount of time deciphering something that may be coincidence or not, has work like this already been done by anyone? Messages that I’ve seen are things like: A burning world treasures the one who deserves it. The one who hates burdens. To kill the glory of ignorance [is] a work of art. Death wears white recorded in blood. I got those simply by taking chapter titles that correspond to the character symbols and smooshing them together. I imagine that if there is a larger pattern at work, it’s more complicated than that; likely has to do with the pictures of the faces (Heralds?), combined with the changing symbol of Shallan in WoR.

Fear not, Lady Radagu. It is impossible to have strong convictions if they have never been questioned. It is by asking questions such as "Do I exist?" that we learn about the meaning of existence. So, too, by asking "I am a stick?" do we learn what it is to be a stick. I found the entire sixth paragraph to be particularly enlightening regarding this subject, and so shall quote it below: "I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick. I am a stick."

What is honorable, and not, is an issue that Kaladin struggles with; it seems to be based entirely on perspective. From the perspective of humans, the Stormfather's actions aren't honorable. However, from his point of view, they are; he is acting to protect his 'children' in the best, most effective way that he can. His ability to affect the Physical realm seems limited to the Highstorms, so he is using the only tool at his disposal to eliminate a very clear and imminent threat, rather than waiting until far too late to act to see if the humans (who have failed him time and time again, including very recently in the form of Kaladin killing Syl) actually come through this time around. Harsh, yes, but not if his primary goal is to protect the spren, his 'children.'

I think you're clearly right on one count, regarding why spren chose humans. However, I think that there's some other event that occurred that is the 'betrayal.' The mention of I-5, The Rider of Storms, p.395 of hardcover, says, "This one, the soul of the storm, was the one the humans called Stormfather--and he was not one of her people's gods. in fact, the songs named him a traitor--a spren who had chosen to protect humans instead of the listeners." Presumably, this is the voidspren--after all, when Eshonai transforms into stormform, the Stormfather says "I CANNOT STOP THIS. I WOULD SHELTER YOU, LITTLE ONE, IF I WERE GIVEN THAT POWER. I AM SORRY" (next page of same section.) We know that the Stormfather is bound in certain ways beyond his control (he cannot stop the highstorms from coming, he cannot help but give visions to Dalinar, etc.) I think that the betrayal of the spren is something that left the Listeners vulnerable to voidspren (perhaps the spren's actions 'taught' voidspren how to create a bond?)

3. There's WoB that KR can bond multiple spren at once, although there is an unspecified limit. Abandoning one bond would likely kill the spren, but it wouldn't necessarily be required.

So, what if whosit that revives Szeth is a Herald. Heralds are of Honor. There is WoB that the Oathpact isn't nearly as broken as the Heralds may think, so they could still be of Honor. Further, if he's still following his various ideals, even if they don't make sense to us at the time, it could still be seen as honorable. Szeth gets Nightblood at the end, and it seems like it's going to be capable of doing some quite remarkable things...perhaps dominating on such a level as to be considered 'reign'ing. So, Heraldguy chose to save Szeth, and Nightblood's reign of terror begins in Book 3.

Strong disagreement. I'm fine with GRRM never publishing another book. Maybe I'm disappointed that he lost his way and then lied to fans about it for 6 years, but that's ok. The fact is that he had a few pretty good books (I mentioned that the first three were good already), but 4 and 5 straight up prove he's not 'great.' If his world-building were as superior as you claim, then more people would like parts of the world that aren't Westeros; even my friends that still enjoy the books hate the east and the desert. His prose isn't particularly stellar either; it's definitely not bad, but is more what you might call functional. It's not beautiful like Rothfuss or invisible like Sanderson's. The story is less and less engaging as it stall as sputters and the initial sympathetic characters are killed off and replaced by new cast members to await their own turn to die; it takes great glee in 'faking out' readers, leaving it a long, boring guessing game of "who is going to die next?" While such a game may be entertaining, it has little lasting appeal to me. I don't find enjoyment in reading about boring characters being bad people just because they're bad people, especially if they remain virtually unchanged throughout until they eventually die--with Jaime Lannister being apparently the one exception. It's fine if you like the books, or love them; there is a lot to like in the first three. But using a variation of the formula from the Friday the 13th or Nightmare on Elm Street movies is hardly worthy of the descriptor 'great'--and after five books, he has proven that that's his forte. Edit: GRRM is, without a doubt, not superior at world-building or story-telling than everyone else mentioned, as you claim, and led to me writing this snarly diatribe in response.

There's a few times in the books where it's mentioned that a spren's ability to think in the Physical realm is different than in Shadesmar. Comparing them in the two realms to try and determine damage is thus not going to produce useful or accurate results. We would have to compare Pattern in the Physical realm pre- and post-drawing, but there is very little to go on. Personally, I think that if Shallan injured him, it was 6 years in the past and all of the lies she told herself and the world, not when she drew him. I would be curious to know if she ever actually summoned him as a Shardblade during that intervening time; I am inclined to say that Pattern was not able to manifest on the Physical realm at all until she drew him, establishing a stronger link between them again (belief, renewed vows, etc.) Of course, there's not really any evidence to suggest that.

An interesting idea. The biggest flaw I see in it right away is that Surgebinders existed before KRs did, and the unifying Ideal for all of the orders is based on the book by Nahodan. So, I think your theory on why they only have access to two Surges is wrong, but may be on the right track--we know that there's a strong connection between spren and what happens when they are recorded. It seems logical to me that the KR spren 'started off' as something different. Syl seemed exactly like a windspren until she didn't. Windspren gather around Kaladin whenever he is flying; Windrunners fly; presumably anyone who is flying will gather windspren. Shallan gathers creationspren when she is drawing, hundreds of them when she draws Pattern. I remember a WoB that Lightweavers tend to have strong creative gifts usually, so they would tend to draw creationspren. It thus seems that Pattern is a changed creationspren (even to the point that both seem to have the ability to constantly change their shapes, and don't necessarily know how what they see fits into the real world.) The biggest question that I would have, if this were the case, is when and why did the conscious spren start creating homes for themselves in Shadesmar? Edit: Also, I think it's in WoR that we learn that what the spren did was not intended, possibly WoK. Almost definitely not WoB.

Snippy snip snip snip! So, Nalan is definitely insane in WoR. Maybe he was insane before he became a Herald; I don't know. But he currently seems to meet the criteria for the WHO's ICD-10 diagnosis of dissocial personality disorder (similar to but not the same as the APA's DSM-IV-TR's antisocial personality disorder. Both of these diagnostic measures draw upon historical psychopathy and sociopathy. To qualify, the person must demonstrate 3 of the below conditions (pasted from wikipedia, the most trustworthy of all sites, so taken with a huge grain of salt). I've taken the liberty of marking the ones that Nalan demonstrates in bold: Callous unconcern for the feelings of others; Gross and persistent attitude of irresponsibility and disregard for social norms, rules, and obligations; Incapacity to maintain enduring relationships, though having no difficulty in establishing them; Very low tolerance to frustration and a low threshold for discharge of aggression, including violence; Incapacity to experience guilt or to profit from experience, particularly punishment; Marked readiness to blame others or to offer plausible rationalizations for the behavior that has brought the person into conflict with society. Obviously, I'm no psychiatrist, and there's more to a diagnosis than simply reading second-hand accounts of someone's actions. But, he seems really close to criminally insane (if not already past the edge), not someone in perfect mental health. Further, there is increasing confidence that emotions are a necessary and critical component of decision-making (both literally and figuratively). If Nalan had come to the decision to eliminate Surgebinders before they could become full KR, and then had his ability to feel emotions ripped out of him, it is then highly likely that he would never be able to make the decision to stop. Is he sane? No. Is he the most sane just because he's not a gibbering wreck, and is still capable of functioning? Well, you might have me there, but an irrational urge to destroy anything that depicts an image of you seems far more sane than a compunction to kill humans without mercy or remorse. I do really like the idea of extended use of an Honorblade forcing too much Stormlight through you too quickly and having adverse affects, likely depending on the type of Spren you're bonded to. Just like a Tineyes savant would be different than a Pewter savant. Assuming, of course, that the Spren is the Roshar 'equivalent' to the metals. I was reading a very good thread about this the other day, but I seem to have misplaced the link for now.

Yes, but taverns are made out of wood (sticks). And drunk people congregate in taverns. And drunk people make typos. So it made me happy to imagine you being a tavern so drunk you typoed your own name, all while being a literal part of Stick in a way that living people can only imagine.

Lift is obviously the Champion of Cultivation. That still leaves Honor and Odium open. I'd be seriously disappointed if Kaladin was the Champion of Honor, for two reasons. First, it's the logical, obvious pick. In fact, Kaladin is as obviously the Champion of Honor as Mistborn Spoiler Second, I'm really, really annoyed at him after book 2, and so I find it hard to root for him. I'm instead going to vote that Szeth ends up being the Champion of Honor, because although I am also annoyed at him, I like to be contrary.

no you're not, you're a tavern. who misspelled his name (probably because you were drunk at the time--but that's ok, we forgive you )

First, I keep responding to you because it's clear you have your position, and are defending it intelligently; I've also read a large number of your other, unrelated posts over the past few days, and find them to be equally intelligent and/or insightful. I just disagree with you completely on this issue Second, I doubt that Dalinar deliberately withholding the information of a second investigation is intended to bring Kaladin anguish. If anything, it's designed to prevent Dalinar from feeling anguish of going to such lengths to investigate the one Brightlord still alive that he calls friend. To acknowledge what he is doing to someone else, especially the accuser, would be to legitimize the possibility that Amaram is a terrible person and make Dalinar have to deal with that. It's behavior that would be more in-character for Shallan, but still didn't read false to me to come from Dalinar. The danger of letting Kaladin know that Dalinar is conducting a second, more sneaky investigation is that the reason for it is the emotionally-charged way that Kaladin completely wrecked the plan to eliminate Sadeas--the man that most agreed was the most dangerous threat to Alethkar, the king, and Dalinar. If a child throws a tantrum because you won't buy them a brand new bicycle, so you send them to their room, and then you buy the bike anyway--that's a very bad message to be sending. (A flawed analogy, of course, but the principle is the same--don't let an irrational person know you are changing your behavior because of their irrational behavior or else they will always be irrational in order to get their way). I do firmly believe that Dalinar initiated the sting swaparoo investigation after Kaladin's actions in the arena; I can't remember now where everyone else is on that issue, so if you think it started at the same time as the initial one, where Dalinar has 17 witnesses saying the same basic story, then that would explain why we feel so very differently about the incident--at that point, I would absolutely agree with this causing unnecessary pain and angst to Kaladin, especially since Dalinar specifically says that the issue is closed.

@Moogle: After re-reading the exchange, what Dalinar did was far more than getting on hands and knees to beg: Dalinar actively threatens to refuse the king's order, publicly if needed, and to act against the king. He was willing to do the very thing he spent most of the first book fighting against, as well as large parts of the second! As far as Dalinar causing Kaladin unnecessary pain and anguish by not giving him the specifics of his investigation plan, Dalinar just saw what happened the last time he did that! Kaladin's anger and hate against lighteyes (while justified) makes him a liability in any delicate work against lighteyes--even when the 'delicacy' is fighting a bloody duel. If Dalinar had told Kaladin about the long-term sting plan he had going on against Amaram, then I would have found it incredible for Kaladin to not find some way to screw it up; his hate and anger against the lighteyes and Amaram was just too great for him to sit back and do nothing if he knew something was going on. I find it almost unbelievable that Kaladin wasn't doing something on his own as it is. The more time I spend on this subject, the more convinced I become that Dalinar has done almost nothing to warrant the demand of an apology to Kaladin--and if he does, then Kaladin is equally on the hook for an equally heart-felt apology. They have both been acting in ways that are logical and rational from their own experiences, and they are each doing the best that they can to help the other--even when they have cause to let them fail or die. Maybe they owe each other the words, but as I've said before, the actions they have taken speak so very, very much louder to me.