Moridin and Rand

[TypicalShard]

Just a thought I had, but it was mentioned that Rand's mind was more corrupted by the taint than any other Nynaeve had seen and Rand body switches with Moridin at the end. But wouldn't Moridin's brain be in an even worse state than Rand's given how liberally he used the True Power. Or is the poisoning done to the soul then manifests within the mind. But then wouldn't Rand's mind still be tainted? I don't remember but it isn't ever explained what the light stuff within Rand's head was either. I kind of remember his mentioning that the protection on his mind wouldn't last forever, but then again it has been awhile and my brain might be making up things. 

Ok so this is a little messy but essentially, why is Rand's soul/brain ok after the body switch? 

[Infinity Sliver]

I think the corruption is of the mind,not the actual brain. And i think I read that the taint wasnt there for those who served under the...Dark Lord? I'd have to go back and check

[HSuperLee]

To my understanding (which means everything I'm about to say could be wrong), Rand's madness was hearing and gaining the memories of Lews Therrin. When he achieved some form of enlightenment on the Dragonmount and embraced his identity as both Rand and Lews Therrin, the madness essentially stopped having a negative consequence, but didn't technically go away. Thus, I assume the light stuff in his mind was the thing that made his madness factual and therefore useful. Basically, I think Rand's madness was delusions of being Lews Therrin and hallucinating memories, but then the light stuff was making it so that the delusions and hallucinations were completely accurate. Where did that light stuff come from? I'm not sure, but it probably has to do with whatever that weird ability Rand has at the end where he can just imagine things into existence is. I assume that had to affect his soul going forward, and thus it also affected him retroactively (gosh I love how that makes sense in the Wheel of Time.)

But again, that's all just my theories. Maybe he just imagined the taint away after switching bodies.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

Moridin would have been protected from the taint because of his bond to the dark one. Rand severed Asmodean's link to the Dark One, at which point Asmodean was subject to the taint. 

Moridin never experienced the taint, but used the dark one's power directly when he channeled the true power which probably had an even worse effect upon his mind then the taint, going by dark Rand's food spoiling effect and his visible dark aura after accessing it just once.

Rand's epiphany on Dragonmount is the moment he became the true champion of the light, the matrix of light overlaying the barbed hooks of the taint piercing his mind negated his madness, and was a gift of his enlightened state.

When Moridin's body awoke, the mind inside that body was Rand's. This is where you get into the metaphysical gray area about what actually happened, but I think we have enough to go on to make an informed guess. Each individual is a thread in the age lace, when Moridin and Rand's balefire crossed at Shadar Logoth, their threads became interwoven. Moridin could draw Rand into his dreamshard even though Rand's dreams were warded. Rand saw Moridin's face, similar to how he would see Perrin and Mat's faces when he thought of them because they were ta'veren. But as proved by Rand's ability to access the true power, his affinity for Moridin was much stronger than with either Mat or Perrin, almost as if their threads had been spliced together. Another interesting bit is that at Shayol Ghul, the barrier between the world and world of dreams was weak enough that Perrin could talk to Nynaeve, implying that in that place thought had a truly creative capacity. Moridin was captured in the trap of Calindor, Rand was wielding Saidar, Saidin, the true power and possibly the force of creation itself (the light, as evidenced by the blinding flash of light). At that moment, and with the power of thought as creation (which he possessed in Moridin's body as seen by his ability to light his pipe just by thinking of it lit) , it is well with the realm of possibility that Rand merely had to will his mind to be swapped with Moridin's. 

Just having read the entire WOT again, one thing that bothers me is that Moridin/Ishamael/Elan's stated goal of wanting to be freed from the wheel of time and to cease to exist could have easily been achieved without championing the shadow, tormenting Rand, etc. He could have just shot himself in the foot with balefire and the problem is solved, Poof, no more Moridin. Oh well, it wouldn't have been a good story that way, but just goes to show he didn't think his position all the way through. 

[cometaryorbit]

On 12/20/2021 at 1:53 AM, Hoiditthroughthegrapevine said:

Just having read the entire WOT again, one thing that bothers me is that Moridin/Ishamael/Elan's stated goal of wanting to be freed from the wheel of time and to cease to exist could have easily been achieved without championing the shadow, tormenting Rand, etc. He could have just shot himself in the foot with balefire and the problem is solved, Poof, no more Moridin. Oh well, it wouldn't have been a good story that way, but just goes to show he didn't think his position all the way through. 

I believe balefire does not actually permanently destroy the soul, it just keeps the Dark One from transferring Forsaken souls since it kills them "back in time" so by the time the Dark One knows to look, the soul has already passed on.

So if Moridin balefired himself he'd still reincarnate, I think.

[+Hoiditthroughthegrapevine]

8 hours ago, cometaryorbit said:

I believe balefire does not actually permanently destroy the soul, it just keeps the Dark One from transferring Forsaken souls since it kills them "back in time" so by the time the Dark One knows to look, the soul has already passed on.

So if Moridin balefired himself he'd still reincarnate, I think.

Very interesting, you are right about that, balefire doesn't burn someone out of the pattern it just makes it impossible for the Dark One to capture their soul after they die in time to transmigrate their soul into a new body.  But there is possibly another way, and given Elan's preoccupation with finding a way out, maybe he'll give it a go on the next turning of the wheel. Quote from Theory land spoilered below:

Spoiler

Apr 24th, 2010

• JordanCon 2010 - blindillusion (Paraphrased)

  BLINDILLUSION

  Is there any way for someone to be removed completely from the Pattern?

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  (Sorry I cannot put out his precise words, but here is the gist)—Jordan started by having balefire do this, but he later debunked this theory by saying someone killed by balefire can be reborn at some point. We currently know of nothing/no method that will completely remove someone from the Pattern.

  BLINDILLUSION

  I thanked him and turned to walk away at this point, so that he could continue with the signing. But he called me back and commented that:

  BRANDON SANDERSON

  The wolves in the Wolf Dream. We know that in the Wolf Dream something can be completely removed from the Pattern.

  BLINDILLUSION

  (Again, not his exact words, but this pretty close. Perhaps J.D can back me up here. He was there.)

  FOOTNOTE

  Birgitte also said that death for the dead heroes in Tel'aran'rhiod is permanent, but Brandon was writing Towers of Midnight at the time and he probably had Hopper on the brain

Seems like all he would have to do is enter Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh and then Balefire himself to join in true oblivion the dead Heroes of Legend who are killed in the Dream and the wolves who are killed in the Wolf Dream. 

[cometaryorbit]

Maybe, but I am honestly not sure. Apparently the Wolf Dream thing is only permanent for wolves*, so I am not sure that we can necessarily assume that a Hero of the Horn between reincarnations is on the same metaphysical situation as a living human entering Tel'aran'rhiod in the flesh.

Interview: Apr 15th, 2013

Reddit AMA 2013 (Verbatim)

ShakaUVM ()

If people can be removed from the Wheel by dying in the Wolf Dream or the Dream World when they're there in person, how is it that there are any people left, if there's been an infinite number of turns of the Wheel?

Brandon Sanderson

They actually can't. That only works on wolves, regardless of what some people think in-world. I thought like you do, but Maria was quite firm that RJ said it couldn't happen, even in the World of Dreams. (Or even with balefire—which I thought would also remove people. Maria explained that I was wrong, and RJ was firm on this one too.)

Tags

balefire, tel'aran'rhiod, wolves, souls, the wheel,

 

If there is any way at all to permanently remove souls, then there must be new ones added, if the cycle can repeat infinitely.

 

*and even then there may be a way out:

Interview: Feb 22nd, 2013

AMOL Signing Report - J. Dauro (Verbatim)

Question

Can the anti-balefire weave restore threads to the Pattern?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, it repairs threads to the Pattern. The threads may not be exactly the same, but it does repair them.

Question

So does that mean Hopper could the next time in this cycle?

Brandon Sanderson

I can't speak for Hopper, other than, I have hope.

Tags

balefire, weaves, the pattern, a memory of light, threads, hopper,