On Shardpools

[lordofsoup]

There are 16 types of allomancers, 1 type of mistborn, just like there are 16 feruchemical powers and 1 feruchemist. Just like there are 16 Shards and 1 Adonalsium

[ulyssessword]

There are 16 types of allomancers, 1 type of mistborn, just like there are 16 feruchemical powers and 1 feruchemist. Just like there are 16 Shards and 1 Adonalsium

Allomancer is a more general term, referring to anyone that can use allomancy. There are 16 types of mistings, 1 type of mistborn for a total of 17 types of allomancers. I'm not sure about the term feruchemist here though, it could refer to either someone with all of the powers (equivalent to mistborn), or anyone that can use feruchemy (equivalent to allomancer).

As for the 1024 year refill, I'm tempted to think that it was done for plot reasons (instead of 256 or 4096 years) because two hundred years is too short for the formation of an empire, and its enduring stability to be noticeable. On the other hand, 4000 years seems too long for artifacts and memories to survive.

One interesting thing about 1024 is that it is halfway between 256 (16^2) and 4096 (16^3) on a logarithmic scale. I'm not sure how/if it is significant, but it is something.

Edited October 27, 2011 by ulyssessword

[happyman]

Does Brandon ever do anything in the most simple way?

Also, since he has said 16 is an extremely important number I thought that would be the way to go. And to get really nitpicky(because that is what I do ) it would be 16(16*4).

This is purely a matter of aesthetics, so I'm not going to say too much more about it. I will say, though, that the most brilliant twists and theories are the ones that are simple in their basics and complex in their realizations. Because I'm looking for the basics, I stick with simplicity.

And for the nitpickyness, I can one-up you. It's not just 16*(16*4). It's also 16*(4*16). Three different ways!

[darniil]

Allomancer is a more general term, referring to anyone that can use allomancy. There are 16 types of mistings, 1 type of mistborn for a total of 17 types of allomancers. I'm not sure about the term feruchemist here though, it could refer to either someone with all of the powers (equivalent to mistborn), or anyone that can use feruchemy (equivalent to allomancer).

You could say "16 types of ferrings, 1 type of feruchemist". That would be analogous.

[dj26792]

This is more on the original topic than the current discussion, but haven't all the shardpools we've seen belonged to shards that were at the time in some way out of action, preservation was tied up restraining ruin, ruin was trapped with his power massively restricted (by preservation) Aona was shattered, somewhere I read a theory that mentioned the tears of Egli being related to Endowment's shardpool, if thats true, well we know that Endowment was shattered as well. If this is right it would make sense that there is an honour shardpool somewhere, but we've only seen the first book in a 10 book series, its unlikely that we'd have seen everything thats important yet.

[darniil]

Well, you're right about Preservation, Ruin, and Aona's, but Endowment hasn't been shattered.

It could be coincidence for those three, or not. I imagine Brandon might have to do a little behind-the-scenes retconning for Aona's pool, since (if I remember the annotations correctly) that pool was put there more as a reason to get Raoden out of Elantris than as a Realmatic thing. But if he wanted to set it up that way, yes, Realmatic Rules could prevent pools from forming when a Shard is fully active. (Or, perhaps, a Shard that is fully active can actively choose not to have a pool manifest, which could be why we haven't seen pools for Endowment, Preservation 2.0, Ruin 2.0, Cultivation, or Odium.)

[Cromptj]

To get back to the main topic, I 've always thought that the shardpools were the cognitive representation of splintered shards. To my knowledge, shardpools are only found on planets where the shard has been splintered. And the one example we have of a living shardholder who has been connected to the shard for a length of time (Sazed) has no shardpool.

The counter argument to this is that Ati was imprisoned by Leras but both were still alive and they had Shardpools. However, both of the shards were effectively on autopilot on the spiritual and physical levels. The one level that requires a mind to guide it is the cognitive. I think this is one of the reasons why shard pools are formed and more specifically, why the Well of Ascension sat there doing nothing until Vin came along.

[CrazyRioter]

This is more on the original topic than the current discussion, but haven't all the shardpools we've seen belonged to shards that were at the time in some way out of action, preservation was tied up restraining ruin, ruin was trapped with his power massively restricted (by preservation) Aona was shattered, somewhere I read a theory that mentioned the tears of Egli being related to Endowment's shardpool, if thats true, well we know that Endowment was shattered as well. If this is right it would make sense that there is an honour shardpool somewhere, but we've only seen the first book in a 10 book series, its unlikely that we'd have seen everything thats important yet.

this was my theory, about the Shardpools forming naturally when a shard is unable to function fully, on the first page, which everybody ignored, because I am apparently chopped liver.

Edited November 2, 2011 by CrazyRioter

[dj26792]

Really? Hows being a chopped liver work out for you, seems like it would be painful

umm, So I completely missed your theory when I read through it again before posting, obviously you're just more intelligent than everyone else, cause you came up with your theory before I did, and now apparently Cromptj also agrees.

[Sunblesser]

To get back to the main topic, I 've always thought that the shardpools were the cognitive representation of splintered shards. To my knowledge, shardpools are only found on planets where the shard has been splintered. And the one example we have of a living shardholder who has been connected to the shard for a length of time (Sazed) has no shardpool.

The counter argument to this is that Ati was imprisoned by Leras but both were still alive and they had Shardpools. However, both of the shards were effectively on autopilot on the spiritual and physical levels. The one level that requires a mind to guide it is the cognitive. I think this is one of the reasons why shard pools are formed and more specifically, why the Well of Ascension sat there doing nothing until Vin came along.

i think you're right to say the pools are the cognitive representation of shards, but you're argument falls apart a bit after that.

preservation was not splintered, yet we still had the well of ascension on scadrial, because preservation chose to create it. i think it's even explicitly stated by sazed in the HoA chapter headings that preservation sacrificed his mind to make a prison for ruin. this doesn't mean that preservation was splintered though, as both vin and sazed (and presumably kelsier, for the short time he held it) were able to seize the full power of the shard.

so i personally am angling more toward shardpools being a choice made by the shard, usually for a specific purpose. if we look at aona's pool on sel, we can see that this is true as well, as the pool seems to act as an assisted suicide centre for elantrians. what's uncertain is why the pool still exists, if aona has been killed, since that should presumably remove the cognitive aspect which gave shape to the pool. it could be something simple: that the power concentrated in the pool by aona was potent enough to persist beyond the direction of a guiding mind, and that the voice Raoden hears is just an imprint left behind by aona. or it could be incredibly complex. brandon has said himself that the pool was originally just a reason to get raoden out of elantris, so he may be having to retcon the reason for it's persistence.

[dj26792]

i think you're right to say the pools are the cognitive representation of shards, but you're argument falls apart a bit after that.

preservation was not splintered, yet we still had the well of ascension on scadrial, because preservation chose to create it. i think it's even explicitly stated by sazed in the HoA chapter headings that preservation sacrificed his mind to make a prison for ruin. this doesn't mean that preservation was splintered though, as both vin and sazed (and presumably kelsier, for the short time he held it) were able to seize the full power of the shard.

so i personally am angling more toward shardpools being a choice made by the shard, usually for a specific purpose. if we look at aona's pool on sel, we can see that this is true as well, as the pool seems to act as an assisted suicide centre for elantrians. what's uncertain is why the pool still exists, if aona has been killed, since that should presumably remove the cognitive aspect which gave shape to the pool. it could be something simple: that the power concentrated in the pool by aona was potent enough to persist beyond the direction of a guiding mind, and that the voice Raoden hears is just an imprint left behind by aona. or it could be incredibly complex. brandon has said himself that the pool was originally just a reason to get raoden out of elantris, so he may be having to retcon the reason for it's persistence.

(emphasis mine)

Thats why I, and presumably also why CrazyRioter both said incapacitated rather than shattered, neither Ruin nor Preservation were shattered but both had pools, however they were both largely incapacitated. I personally now like Darniil's idea that the pools can be formed by active shards, but when the shard is incapacitated one aspect (which we assume is the cognitive aspect) of its power just sort of oozes out and gathers in a pool (at least I think thats what you're saying)

[darniil]

I personally now like Darniil's idea that the pools can be formed by active shards, but when the shard is incapacitated one aspect (which we assume is the cognitive aspect) of its power just sort of oozes out and gathers in a pool (at least I think thats what you're saying)

Um, yeah. Sure. ;;

I hadn't decided on any specifics - the cognitive aspect oozing out into a pool, for example - but yeah, that's pretty much what I was suggesting. (Just in generalities rather than specifics. I like the idea, but I'm still reserved regarding it, since we haven't seen a definitive yea or nay regarding pools and fully active Shards.)

[Cromptj]

But the cognitive aspect of preservation was effectively splintered when he imprisoned ruin. Also, the Well of Ascension is not Preservation's shardpool, it is that metallic lake that we see in Alendi's journal.

[darniil]

But the cognitive aspect of preservation was effectively splintered when he imprisoned ruin. Also, the Well of Ascension is not Preservation's shardpool, it is that metallic lake that we see in Alendi's journal.

What do you mean by "it"? Do you mean the WoA is the metallic lake, or do you mean Preservation's shardpool is the lake?

Either way, all three are the same thing. The Well of Ascension is a shallow pool of metallic-looking liquid, and it is the physical-liquid form of Preservation's power.

[Chaos]

But the cognitive aspect of preservation was effectively splintered when he imprisoned ruin. Also, the Well of Ascension is not Preservation's shardpool, it is that metallic lake that we see in Alendi's journal.

The metallic lake is actually Ruin. The Well of Ascension has to be Preservation's.

[darniil]

The metallic lake is actually Ruin. The Well of Ascension has to be Preservation's.

So, after reading this, I had to go back and try to re-refresh my memory. (I posted my earlier comment based upon info in the wiki.)

TFE Epigraph 33 does mention a lake, and considering the distance they had to be at, it certainly is a lake. Certainly not the small pool that the WoA is described as. (Plus, the lake sounds like it's outside, whereas Alendi's destination was in a cave.)

I wonder, could this large lake have been transformed by Rashek into the Pits of Hathsin when he remade the world? Could this one large well have been broken into the many small wells of the Pits that Brandon mentioned?

[Sunblesser]

But the cognitive aspect of preservation was effectively splintered when he imprisoned ruin. Also, the Well of Ascension is not Preservation's shardpool, it is that metallic lake that we see in Alendi's journal.

i still object to this splintering idea. effectively splintered? what do you mean by that? preservation made a prison for ruin out of his cognitive aspect. he simply shaped power in line with the intent of his shard. he splintered nothing. the mist-spirit is a shadow, a finite shred of left-over power, barely able to retain form, and is certainly not a splinter.

in my mind, the definitive proof that preservation was not splintered is the fact that three separate people hold the shard over the course of HoA, and if a shard is splintered, nobody can hold it (this is based on the assumption that hoid knows what he's talking about in the letter).

[darniil]

I think I kind of know what Cromptj means, but "splinter" is the wrong term to use - doubly so since that word has a very specific meaning in the cosmere.

I would suggest "not operating at full capacity" as a substitute, but we already knew that.