Spaceships in Shadesmar!

[Steeldancer]

Spaceships in Shadesmar! I asked Brandon at FanX about how FTL could be achieved on minor shardworlds, without the help of major investiture systems. And he actually gave me a straightforward answer, talking about using spaceships through shadesmar.

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[suggestion]

Steeldancer

A while back, you mentioned that if certain circumstances hadn't happened on Taldain, that Taldainians... the people on Taldain probably would've been the first to space. Which interests me greatly, because they don't really have a magic system that is very conducive to faster than light travel.

Brandon Sanderson

I didn't say--did I say FTL?

Steeldancer

You didn't, that's true, but that doesn't change my question. So my question is, is there a method, other than Allomantic ways and Surgebinding ways, for faster than light, that could be achieved on any minor Shardworld, as long as they have access to Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, there is, but it depends on if you could get in Shadesmar. You could travel FTL in the Physical Realm through Shadesmar. Basically, just take a spaceship in Shadesmar and travel between Shardpools and you've achieved FTL. Because travel through Shadesmar, you could walk between planets in Shadesmar. So anyone who can get in and out of Shadesmar reliably can FTL. Ways in and out of Shadesmar are very rare, which is extremely limiting, but it is possible.

FanX 2021 (Sept. 16, 2021)

In that way, they can go faster than light, because the cognitive realm is more compressed than the physical realm. I am still fairly certain allomantic and fabrial FTL will involve primarily interacting with the physical realm, but this opens up a whole new world of FTL that I had never thought about before.

To those who might seem a bit confused by this idea, all we have to do is look at Star Wars and Star Trek, which utilize the idea of hyperspace and warpspace, a version of space that is much more compressed than normal, physical space. So, basically Shadesmar. I honestly am shocked I never thought about this before.
It’s even possible allomantic drives and gravitational drives will simply be means of propulsion, and the primary route will be through Shadesmar. So now we have a much clearer idea of what Space Cosmere will look like.

So, that brings me to the point of my discussion, and the other thing Brandon brought up in relation to this. That the main issue with achieving this is getting easy access to the Cognitive Realm. So let’s go ahead and dive into some Realmatics, and some ways that I can forsee the future of the cosmere going based on this wonderful WoB.

In the current era of the cosmere, there are only 4 ways into the cognitive realm that we are aware of. Dying, Elsecalling, Oathgates, and the perpendicularities of the Shards, (plus some other weird perpendicularities we don’t really know all the details about, like on Threnody). Death is (usually) permanent, Elsecalling seems to struggle with returning to the physical realm for reasons we don’t fully understand, and perpendicularities aren’t exactly placed conveniently, and most of them aren’t even safe, and are under the watch of fickle shards. Oathgates are honestly the most convenient method, but as of RoW last we heard not all of the Oathgate spren were even willing to allow travel into the Cognitive Realm. So in other words, travel between realms is not convenient at the moment. So putting aside methods of propulsion, I think solving the problem of easy travel to the cognitive realm is probably the most relevant issue to figuring out the future of the Cosmere, and that’s pretty much what Brandon said as well.

So, how do we get easy access to and from the cognitive realm? Probably the best comparisons to make would be to Elsecalling. As I mentioned earlier, the only Radiant we’ve actually seen is Jasnah, and Brandon has stated that while she should be able to get back to the physical realm without finding a perpendicularity, she hasn’t figured out how to do it yet.

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Questioner

Can you tell me anything about the Elsecallers we don't know yet?

Brandon Sanderson

They should be able to get back out of Shadesmar without having to find a perpendicularity, but Jasnah doesn't know how to do it yet. She should be able to do that, she just hasn't figured it out.

Prague Signing (Oct. 26, 2019)

He also says that it’s more difficult to do than getting in, even if you do have Stormlight.
 

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(Really long WoB, here's the link https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5758 )

On the other hand we have the Oathgates, but those are fabrials likely directly created by spren (although I have to wonder what kind of spren the oathgate spren are). The oathgates seem to be fairly easy to operate, but it requires willing spren, it stays in one place, and it can require quite a bit of stormlight. Oh, and it requires you to have a Knight Radiant. Pretty inconvenient. Additionally, spren are connected to Roshar, so that could be an issue as well.

Another relevant point is the shardpools, or perpendicularities of the shards. When a shard invests in a planet, they (usually) create a perpendicularity. Some are stable, and some are not. Even dead and shattered shards retain their perpendicularities. But shards are fickle and die sometimes, and sometimes they are placed REALLY inconveniently. Like on First of the Sun. And sometimes shards say nope to having one, like Autonomy (or Bavadin?) on Taldain, cutting it off from the rest of the cosmere. The reason they form is due to a large amount of investiture pooling in one place. I’m going to call this a brute force method, because no matter what, if you pool enough investiture into one place, you can make a perpendicularity to cross realms. But that amount of investiture is highly unusual to have access to, and I doubt every spaceship will be able to do that. So we need a more efficient method. Therefore, Oathgates and Elsecalling are a better example of efficient travel between realms. Oathgates, we honestly don’t know as much about they work, but I’d assume they function on the surge of Transportation, like Elsecalling. I feel like there’s a lot more to this surge than what we’ve been told, because right now it feels really underpowered, compared to how the Pursuer uses it. I was hoping we would learn more about it in the Willshapers book… but it looks like we might need to wait until Jasnah’s book to learn about it.
And last time I heard about when Jasnah’s book was placed, it was 9 or 10. *sigh*

Point of the matter is, elsecalling is in essence puncturing through the realms, making a very small perpendicularity that you can pass through. This, compared to the Brute Force method, utilizes a magic system in order to be a lot more efficient with investiture. Incidentally, I’d like to briefly point out that Dalinar uses the brute force method, I’m pretty sure. Being connected to the broken pieces of Honor has its benefits.
After all this discussion of surgebinding, it is time to tear ourselves away from what we know from the books, into the realm of speculation and theories.

The essence of my question was to address the fact that most shardworlds do not have magic systems that seem inclined towards FTL tech, or easy transportation between realms. Obviously all investiture draws the realms closer together, but using just pure investiture to accomplish it is a brute force method, and is not efficient enough. Additionally, only Roshar features the surge of Transportation, so minor shardworlds need to be able to develop a technology similar to it, without actually utilizing rosharian (or allomantic) tech.
Honestly I’m not sure how allomancy will allow for travel between realms, but that’s beside the point at the moment.
So our requirements for this technology are as such:

1. It is efficient in terms of investiture

2. It is possible even on minor shardworlds, without a need for allomantic or rosharian tech.

3. It is mechanizable.

4. It needs to be capable of both entering and exiting the cognitive realm. 

5. It needs to be able to store investiture, so as to be able to make it portable and useful over long periods of time.
Let’s get to it.

The last one is easiest to understand if we look at Taldain. Despite their lack of high-investiture system, they do have one wonderful substance: the white sand. It stores investiture. (or at least the stuff that grows on it does). This, properly utilized, could probably act as an investiture battery. I’d assume many worlds have flora or fauna that absorb investiture, but the sand is really easy to transport. Because, well, it’s sand, and there’s a lot of it. The problem then, lies in where would they get their investiture? I think that answer will come from when they solve the “how do we get stormlight off of Roshar” issue. Stormlight is by far the easiest to access free investiture in the cosmere. It is not at all hard to imagine it being used to refuel ships.

Another battery method would be nicrosil. I’m pretty sure Nicrosil investiture batteries are really easy to make.
Now as you are reading this, you may be thinking, but all of these technologies are inherent to their own shardworld. How would it be possible for a minor shardworld to independently develop this kind of technology?

Somehow, this kind of technology has to become universal. And so, it’s time for my crazy speculation of the day. A speculation that takes into account how Taldain could still achieve FTL, and how they would definitely develop it faster if they were connected to the rest of the cosmere. Something that loops all my crazy spiritual realm speculation together.

What if a world could design their own investiture keys?

Context. The reason magic systems exist is due to certain applications of investiture, usually set up by the resident Shard. In regards to allomancy and feruchemy, and probably surgebinding too, there is a key in the spirit web, that once you fulfill certain conditions and run investiture through it, you get an effect. It’s a bit more complicated than just that, but my point is, particular spirit web “genes,” or “shapes” allow you to purpose investiture to do particular things. Now, usually that would be achieved through inheritance on Scadrial, or through spren bonds on Roshar. But what if you could alter, or even design an independent spirit web to have these keys without said inheritance or spren bond? If the shape of the web is what determines it, it should work no matter what form it takes in the physical realm.

This would be distinctly a mechanical use of investiture. This makes sense in a couple ways; with enough cosmere knowledge to know about the various applications of investiture, and the associated spirit web types that produce the investiture effects, as long as you have a viable way to construct or alter spirit webs, you should then be able to make technology that can do the exact same thing. (Actually, if you think about it, once this… I’m going to call it “Spiritual CRISPR” exists, it would probably be able to alter living people’s spirit webs as well. I bet that would create a massive ethical debate, but as a scientist type, I’m not as concerned about that).

Now, it could still be developed without access to the cosmere, as I’m assuming these shapes are totally universal, but it would be a LOT more difficult. It would require independent discovery of “Spiritual CRISPR” and then a lot of trial and error. And intent. So based on that… I’m going to take a leap and say that Taldain will not be the first to figure this out. I’d place my money on Scadrial, but who knows. Roshar and Nalthis are also viable options as well. Scadrial, because they already have some identity and universal metalmind shenangians going on, which seem to point towards that sort of eventual end. 

All this to say, you then design a machine that can Elsecall, stick it in a super slick spaceship, run some investiture through it, and pop into the cognitive realm. Whee.
Well, that’s all the speculation I have on that subject. I have no idea what this Spiritual CRISPR could be (maybe breath?), and it’s very likely brandon just won’t tell us about how this could be accomplished until at least Era 3 Mistborn, more likely Era 4. 

I could also be totally wrong. But the fundamental principle remains: the key to universal FTL is figuring out a way to easily slip in between realms. I just came up with one way it might possibly occur. Feel free to provide any further insights that I might not have thought about as to how this could be achieved. 

[mathiau]

Brandon was probably just talking about bringing material through a Perpendicularity and building planes in the CR.

[Steeldancer]

25 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Brandon was probably just talking about bringing material through a Perpendicularity and building planes in the CR.

I'm quite confused as to how you came to that conclusion. We know Era 4 is space ships, and planes would not be nearly fast enough to qualify as "Faster than Light," even in the Cognitive Realm. I could see air travel possibly being a thing in the cognitive realm (maybe era 3?), but once technology becomes sufficiently advanced to go faster than a plane can, it makes no sense to use planes. 
And Brandon specifically said spaceships. I confirmed that with him right after the recorded WoB, I said "So basically, Spaceships in Shadesmar?" and he said "Yes." So, no planes. Just spaceships. And building planes wouldn't even address the main issue I discussed in my post, that being accessability of the Cognitive Realm. If they're reliant on existing perpendicularities, free travel throughout the cosmere at FTL will never be possible. They need to be able to get into the cognitive realm at will, and a plane ain't gonna do that. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Steeldancer

[mathiau]

9 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

planes would not be nearly fast enough to qualify as "Faster than Light," even in the Cognitive Realm.

You can walk faster than light in the CR

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I could see air travel possibly being a thing in the cognitive realm (maybe era 3?), but once technology becomes sufficiently advanced to go faster than a plane can, it makes no sense to use planes. 

Of course. What I meant was that the "planes" technology is enough to allow people from Taldain and minor worlds to very easily reach other worlds.

Though I doubt minor shardwords will ever get much better than planes as far as worldhopping is concerned unless they steal some Major World magictech.

[Steeldancer]

1 hour ago, mathiau said:

You can walk faster than light in the CR

Of course. What I meant was that the "planes" technology is enough to allow people from Taldain and minor worlds to very easily reach other worlds.

Though I doubt minor shardwords will ever get much better than planes as far as worldhopping is concerned unless they steal some Major World magictech.

...I really don't want to argue too much, but the first point... yeah no that's explicitly untrue. Relativity (although altered) is still a thing in the cosmere, and if people in the cognitive realm were going at faster than light comparatively to the physical realm... Adolin and Shallan and Kaladin would have been in Shadesmar for literally seconds in Oathbringer. And that clearly does not match the narrative of the story. Now, it is true that space is compressed, but that doesn't mean you're moving faster than light just by walking. Now, if you were to go fast enough, the space compression would mean that relative to light in the physical realm, they are going faster than the speed of light. But that's a lot faster than anything in the cosmere is currently capable of going. 
And, I literally addressed that very thing in my post, and my question. The entire point is how the minor shardworlds can get FTL without needing to steal rosharian or allomantic tech, which is why brandon gave the response he did. I was hoping for some alternate thoughts about how easy access to the cognitive realm could be achieved, so please at least read my whole post. 

[Raboniel]

I really like your post, but am kind of bothered by the way you've responded to the first reply/discussion point.

You said in the post that you "don't like to argue too much," but the entire point of theory and these discussions is exactly that--an argument over the potential mechanics or future happenings in the Cosmere. 

You also state that you were "...hoping for some alternate thoughts about how easy access to the cognitive realm could be achieved, so please at least read my whole post." Unfortunately, when you post something that amounts to a small essay--5+ pages of Times New Roman, size-12 font, and single-spacing--you must accept that people will address more than just one facet of your argument, and not just the specific discussion you were aiming to generate. 

Finally, you've stated that your "...entire point [of the post] is how the minor shardworlds can get FTL without needing to steal rosharian or allomantic tech, which is why Brandon gave the response he did". Mathiau is trying to participate in your discussion, and it seems like you're just attacking him when he is simply participating in the conversation that you generated. 

You aren't wrong in saying that access to Shadesmar is vital in achieving "FTL", but you're also failing to interpret what Brandon said to you at face value, which is that he believes "walking" between planets through Shadesmar is a form of FTL travel, since you're able to cover distances in this compressed space much more quickly that you would in the Physical Realm. 

Brandon says that, "Basically, just take a spaceship in Shadesmar and travel between Shardpools and you've achieved FTL. Because travel through Shadesmar, you could walk between planets in Shadesmar. So anyone who can get in and out of Shadesmar reliably can FTL." He insinuates that whichever method of travel you employ in getting from point A to point B (in this case, different solar systems--either through walking, plane travel, etc.) in Shadesmar it can be considered FTL travel, because you really are moving faster than light can travel in the Physical Realm between those two points. 

You might think a person isn't "at least [reading your] whole post," but I have and it feels like you just aren't getting the exact answers you're looking for, and are lashing out at an individual who is addressing other parts of your proposition. 

Cheers.

[VeryNiceName]

48 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

...I really don't want to argue too much, but the first point... yeah no that's explicitly untrue. Relativity (although altered) is still a thing in the cosmere, and if people in the cognitive realm were going at faster than light comparatively to the physical realm... Adolin and Shallan and Kaladin would have been in Shadesmar for literally seconds in Oathbringer. And that clearly does not match the narrative of the story. Now, it is true that space is compressed, but that doesn't mean you're moving faster than light just by walking. Now, if you were to go fast enough, the space compression would mean that relative to light in the physical realm, they are going faster than the speed of light. But that's a lot faster than anything in the cosmere is currently capable of going. 
And, I literally addressed that very thing in my post, and my question. The entire point is how the minor shardworlds can get FTL without needing to steal rosharian or allomantic tech, which is why brandon gave the response he did. I was hoping for some alternate thoughts about how easy access to the cognitive realm could be achieved, so please at least read my whole post. 

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Because travel through Shadesmar, you could walk between planets in Shadesmar. So anyone who can get in and out of Shadesmar reliably can FTL.

This pretty strongly implies to me that walking in Shadesmar is FTL. The reason Adolin, Shallan and Kaladin don't go FTL is because not all of Shadesmar is compressed the same amount, and even a space ship travelling the path they took wouldn't have reached FTL, because they were moving the exact same distance that a person in the Physical would. 
 

[AquaRegia]

Agreed.  We already know multiple characters - Hoid, Iyatil, Khriss, Nazh, Zahel and Azure, just to name a few off the top of my head - who have traveled from one star system to another by, as far as we know, walking through Shadesmar.  Clearly, walking CAN be FTL, no spaceships, planes, or other tech required, as long as you know how to get into and out of the CR.

This, of course, does not rule out vehicles ALSO moving FTL through the CR.

Edited September 22, 2021 by AquaRegia
grammar

[VeryNiceName]

There's been some debate as to if weird time dilation stuff would mess with Shadesmar travel going FTL, and even if they experienced it as a few weeks it would actually be years, but moving faster in the Cognitive wouldn't actually solve that issue, so if you can break FTL one way you could break it the other imo.

[Steeldancer]

21 minutes ago, Raboniel said:

I really like your post, but am kind of bothered by the way you've responded to the first reply/discussion point.

You said in the post that you "don't like to argue too much," but the entire point of theory and these discussions is exactly that--an argument over the potential mechanics or future happenings in the Cosmere. 

You also state that you were "...hoping for some alternate thoughts about how easy access to the cognitive realm could be achieved, so please at least read my whole post." Unfortunately, when you post something that amounts to a small essay--5+ pages of Times New Roman, size-12 font, and single-spacing--you must accept that people will address more than just one facet of your argument, and not just the specific discussion you were aiming to generate. 

Finally, you've stated that your "...entire point [of the post] is how the minor shardworlds can get FTL without needing to steal rosharian or allomantic tech, which is why Brandon gave the response he did". Mathiau is trying to participate in your discussion, and it seems like you're just attacking him when he is simply participating in the conversation that you generated. 

You aren't wrong in saying that access to Shadesmar is vital in achieving "FTL", but you're also failing to interpret what Brandon said to you at face value, which is that he believes "walking" between planets through Shadesmar is a form of FTL travel, since you're able to cover distances in this compressed space much more quickly that you would in the Physical Realm. 

Brandon says that, "Basically, just take a spaceship in Shadesmar and travel between Shardpools and you've achieved FTL. Because travel through Shadesmar, you could walk between planets in Shadesmar. So anyone who can get in and out of Shadesmar reliably can FTL." He insinuates that whichever method of travel you employ in getting from point A to point B (in this case, different solar systems--either through walking, plane travel, etc.) in Shadesmar it can be considered FTL travel, because you really are moving faster than light can travel in the Physical Realm between those two points. 

You might think a person isn't "at least [reading your] whole post," but I have and it feels like you just aren't getting the exact answers you're looking for, and are lashing out at an individual who is addressing other parts of your proposition. 

Cheers.

If I had wanted to lash out, I would have been a lot harsher. But... walking isn't faster than light. I define worldhopping, which we know plenty of characters do, (heck there's even a whole city of humans just chilling somewhere in the cognitive realm!) very differently than I do FTL tech. I'll admit, I didn't think about the degree of compression, but I'd be hard pressed to believe worldhopping currently occurs faster than light can travel from one star system to another. 
I got overly frustrated about this because I spent the past 4 days thinking really, really hard about this. The spirit realm and FTL is a passion project of mine that I care very much about. I genuinely don't want to attack anyone's ideas, but I disagree that worldhopping is inherently the same as going faster than light. 
Edit. And additionally, whether or not walking is defined as FTL, which... I guess the response he gave could be interpreted that way, that still doesn't change the point of most of my post: the fact that in order to make "FTL" viable, whether walking or not, you need to be able to mechanize a way into the cognitive realm, because there just isn't a way to do that currently. That's what I was hoping to inspire discussion about. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Steeldancer

[Raboniel]

Ah, OK. I appreciate this reply and I understand your frustration a bit more!

9 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

I define worldhopping, which we know plenty of characters do, (heck there's even a whole city of humans just chilling somewhere in the cognitive realm!) very differently than I do FTL tech.

...I disagree that worldhopping is inherently the same as going faster than light. 

I feel like it's important to have a discussion on what exactly Brandon said to you, as it functions sort as the catalyst for your post. Does Worldhopping = FTL Travel? I would argue that Brandon's answer is yes--in a way--but that there still does exist Physical Realm methods of achieving FTL travel, and that Cognitive Realm travel is perhaps a weak analog to it in the Cosmere.

Edited September 22, 2021 by Raboniel
typo

[CalaCrisp88]

I mean, FTL isn't the same as worldhopping, but it can be a natural consequence of it, depending on the method you use to worldhop. If you're going between planets in the CR, where there is empty space and no cognition at all, it'll be super compressed. Per this wob: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/87/#e5671 (it's long, so I won't paste it) you can literally "pass lightyears in steps" once you get far away from centers of perception and thought.

Of course, using ships will be significantly faster than walking, and more effective in other ways. That's probably the direction things are going to move for most peoples in the cosmere. But it's certainly not the only way it can happen.

Edited September 22, 2021 by CalaCrisp88

[AquaRegia]

2 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

 I disagree that worldhopping is inherently the same as going faster than light. 

We don't know how far apart the systems involved are, so let's assume something typical from what we know about our real galaxy - say, 10 light years.  Distances between inhabited systems are unlikely to be much less than this, and could be FAR more.

Do you really think it took Vasher and Vivenna longer than 10 years to get from Nalthis to Roshar?  He may be effectively immortal, but she isn't!

Either way, I do understand that your point is to explore ways a VEHICLE could carry passengers through the CR; I just don't have any speculation to share on that right now.

[VeryNiceName]

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He may be effectively immortal, but she isn't!

She probably is, given that Warbreaker happened several generations before Stormlight and she looks about the same (though the Royal Locks can let her alter her apparent age so she could be 90 and healthy because of Breath I guess)

[Steeldancer]

6 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

We don't know how far apart the systems involved are, so let's assume something typical from what we know about our real galaxy - say, 10 light years.  Distances between inhabited systems are unlikely to be much less than this, and could be FAR more.

Do you really think it took Vasher and Vivenna longer than 10 years to get from Nalthis to Roshar?  He may be effectively immortal, but she isn't!

Either way, I do understand that your point is to explore ways a VEHICLE could carry passengers through the CR; I just don't have any speculation to share on that right now.

it's actually quite possible Vivenna might be immortal... a lot of worldhoppers gain some form of immortality
But that's beside the point you're making, and I see your point. While we don't actually know how much the compression is, I'd agree that most likely it is compressed more than the distance of 10 light years for sure. 
But worldhopping still doesn't solve the primary issue, being that you can't control where you end up. You're very limited in your number of destinations (unless you're willing to get ripped to shreds by First of the Sun or whatever the heck is going on in Sel's cognitive realm). To make worldhopping into what I'd define as "FTL tech", youre going to need a reliable method of piercing the realms, without needing the help of an elsecaller or a shard. 
Edit: I wonder if a vehicle would even help with the whole Sel thing... just how violent is that storm anyway?

Edited September 22, 2021 by Steeldancer

[VeryNiceName]

On how you would transition between Realms easily, I think in most cases it's going to be very difficult, and planets will just steal stuff. For Taldain specifically, we know that when you put water on charged sand there is Realmic transition, and also Sand Masters control this with a Cognitive bond (I have no clue what that means because all Connection is Spiritual), so maybe if you sustain that transition for a long time with enough power you can open a perpendicularity? 

[Raboniel]

3 minutes ago, VeryNiceName said:

maybe if you sustain that transition for a long time with enough power you can open a perpendicularity?

Huh. Since Elsecallers + Bondsmiths are the two orders with the deepest links to all three realms, perhaps that's the secret to the Perpendicularity monopoly (and why those two orders can apparently gain access to the Cognitive Realm from the Physical one).

Does that transition tap into the Spiritual, Cognitive, and Physical simultaneously? 

[Steeldancer]

1 minute ago, VeryNiceName said:

On how you would transition between Realms easily, I think in most cases it's going to be very difficult, and planets will just steal stuff. For Taldain specifically, we know that when you put water on charged sand there is Realmic transition, and also Sand Masters control this with a Cognitive bond (I have no clue what that means because all Connection is Spiritual), so maybe if you sustain that transition for a long time with enough power you can open a perpendicularity? 

There's not a lot of investiture going on with sand mastery, so you'd need a LOT of sand masters. Because, it seems the size of investiture you need is comparable to... at least a large chunk of a shard? The smallest perpendicularity that isn't directly tied to a magic system is Honor's perpendicularity which is run by the Stormfather, who is a shadow of Honor and has a large chunk of his power. That's what I'd refer to as a brute force method, and that seems like way too much of a hassle to be reliable. And then, what would you do once you got in? They'd be stuck. They wouldn't have any sand. 
Actually, that's quite an amusing image.
The main problem with stealing things, is that without the magic system being native to your planet, it's going to be REALLY difficult to replicate. 
Take fabrials for example. Hypothetically, a scadrian steals a FTL fabrial. Now what? They'd need to go to Roshar and collect a bunch of spren every time they want to make a new fabrial. Same with copying allomancy (although, I'm a bit more unsure of this one, do they need to be Scadrian to use unkeyed metalminds? I'm honestly unsure). Heck, even Aons, which are really powerful, require a connection to the land they come from. And all of this is just... more hassle. If you want to make a fleet of ships, you want replicable technology. 

[VeryNiceName]

1 minute ago, Steeldancer said:

There's not a lot of investiture going on with sand mastery, so you'd need a LOT of sand masters. Because, it seems the size of investiture you need is comparable to... at least a large chunk of a shard? 

I’m not suggesting a full long term perpendicularity, but something small for a very short time like Elsecallers use seems plausible to me. Also, though most Sand Masters aren’t going to be NEAR enough for this, Baon with a very small amount of sand made a huge amount of light compared to anything else Sand Masters have done, so multiple people in that level with significantly more control and sand might be able to do it.

[drunkenbotanist]

Just want to say that spiritual CRISPR implies the existence of spiritual bacteria and spiritual bacteriophages fighting each other endlessly

[Steeldancer]

15 minutes ago, VeryNiceName said:

I’m not suggesting a full long term perpendicularity, but something small for a very short time like Elsecallers use seems plausible to me. Also, though most Sand Masters aren’t going to be NEAR enough for this, Baon with a very small amount of sand made a huge amount of light compared to anything else Sand Masters have done, so multiple people in that level with significantly more control and sand might be able to do it.

Ok quick disclaimer: I've only read prose White Sand, I haven't read the last 2 graphic novels (the third one I think came out on my mission? I'm not sure). 
As for Baon...
I have no idea what to make of that situation. Literally none. From what I know, there's no context given for his ability to Master. What even qualifies a person to be able to Sand Master anyway? Idk. 
So in other words, when it comes to Sand Mastery, I'm not sure if there is an application that could eventually lead to that. My one hunch is that Autonomy probably wouldn't design that into the magic system, given their isolationist policy regarding Taldain. But I can't prove that, so I'll leave that at that. 

 

9 minutes ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Just want to say that spiritual CRISPR implies the existence of spiritual bacteria and spiritual bacteriophages fighting each other endlessly

This is my main career path, so that would bring me great joy if that came out to be true. I mainly used spiritual CRISPR as a stand in term, since brandon sometimes refers to spirit webs as Spiritual DNA.  I have no idea what form it would actually take. 

Edit: In regards to my earlier tangent, I did some brief research. Brandon describes the investiture storm over Sel as "Plasma". And plasma is well known for cutting metal. 
I'm fairly certain nobody is going to want to fly a fancy spaceship into that. 
One additional tangent. It's something I've thought about for a long time, but what's going to happen to the cognitive realm when people start thinking about the space inbetween worlds? If it becomes common knowledge, I'd say the space compression will probably decrease. Not all the way obviously, but it could affect how viable just walking (or whatever people do in the cognitive realm to get from place to place) could be. Like, what about when people start to understand what a black hole is? 
I'm 99% sure I wouldn't want to mess with a black hole in the cognitive realm, much less the physical realm.
Just putting it out there that as perception changes over time, the cognitive realm will change too, and that could increase the danger in the cognitive realm. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Steeldancer

[drunkenbotanist]

7 minutes ago, Steeldancer said:

 

This is my main career path, so that would bring me great joy if that came out to be true. I mainly used spiritual CRISPR as a stand in term, since brandon sometimes refers to spirit webs as Spiritual DNA.  I have no idea what form it would actually take. 

Hi there, plant biologist that makes CRISPR tools

I was joking though about the spirit realm viruses 

But that being said hemalurgy and/or (depending on if they're the same thing) the Excisor from the Southern Scadrians does the actual probably CRISPR analog

 

Designing/programming a new use of investiture sounds like Sel magic which is supposed to also be one of the important Era 4 civilizations?

 

 

[Steeldancer]

1 minute ago, drunkenbotanist said:

Hi there, plant biologist that makes CRISPR tools

I was joking though about the spirit realm viruses 

But that being said hemalurgy and/or (depending on if they're the same thing) the Excisor from the Southern Scadrians does the actual probably CRISPR analog

 

Designing/programming a new use of investiture sounds like Sel magic which is supposed to also be one of the important Era 4 civilizations?

 

 

Nice to meet ya, fellow biologist. I'm more of a phage guy myself, but CRISPR is fantastic stuff. 
I've actually asked about hemalurgic surgery before... 
the main problem with it is that it has the unfortunate side effect of death. 
Breath also gets used to mess with spirit webs, thus my thoughts currently lean in that direction. 
But programming... honestly, I don't think about Sel as much as I should. It has some stupidly powerful magic, and once they figure out how to use it anywhere (actually they probably already have at this point in the timeline), it's going to be very, very useful stuff. Both Awakening and the AonDor are very analogous to code. 
I want to stew on this. Thank you for the very interesting thought. 

[Honorless]

Shadesmar is faster than light only when crossing between planets, as the empty space without any minds tends to get crunched. So you can traverse vast interstellar spaces in a few footsteps but a neighborhood would be roughly the same size.

The Oathgate spren seem to be Inkspren and Reachers in appearance but made gigantic, which makes sense since they're the ones that grant the Surge of Transportation. We know from RoW that the Parent that they were referring to was the Sibling, so presumably the Sibling altered them to create the Oathgates, which also makes sense because of the ten central Oathgates of Urithiru.

 

The White Sand lichen, I'm not sure using those as batteries would be efficient. They seem very low-Investiture. Remember in OB, the screamer Voidspren could detect Kaladin's use of Gravitation but not Shallan's Lightweaving and how on Shadesmar they saw that Shallan's Lightweaving (and the strange making beads imitate things in the Physical, which seems like a manifestation of the Surge of Transformation that isn't Soulcasting) were more economical uses of Stormlight. And then we see Hoid's White Sand getting charged by Shallan using Lightweaving near him. Yeah, they're a bit too low capacity, I think. Wonder how Khrissala got off-world. Darkside magic is supposed to be more on the down-low but assuming the Darkside emperor's Violet Skycolours opened up something new, stuff might be possible there.

I wonder how this stuff might be usable on Threnody. Is their original Invested Art (assuming they had one) still accessible? Ambition seemingly did not leave behind a Perpendicularity and is now located elsewhere, but the Investiture from "the Evil" might be usable, if it's a Splinter and not like Fainlife (which it could be because the Vessel of Ambition, Uli Da was a Sho Del, Fainlife). Or perhaps we should be looking at the temporary macabre Perpendicularities, which are likely to be a gathering of Shades, as Khriss seems to imply in the AU; and we know from Mistborn era 2 broadsheets, courtesy of Nikki Savage, that Nazh has a gun that uses Shades somehow! So Shade tech might be a go!

First of the Sun already has a Perpendicularity on Patji, if a bit inconvenient. The other planets in the system probably don't, Khriss didn't mention them beyond giving a single comment on their life, but given the peculiar nature of having a Perpendicularity without a Shard present that she commented on for First of the Sun, she would've mentioned any other Perpendicularities.

On Sel, Devotion's Perpendicularity still exists, and it is near Elantris, which I imagine will become a hub in the future. Dominion's Perpendicularity also presumably still exists.

Scadrial era 2 seems to have a Perpendicularity on the southern mountains of the Elendel Basin, as per the Broadsheets, and South Scadrial already has airships and is using their godmetal. Some people have theorized that the original Well and Pits might also reform.

Roshar is starting on airships already, and Raysium sounds like a very interesting godmetal as it's an Investiture conductor, oh boy, that opens up magi tech nicely!

That leaves Nalthis, they also have a Perpendicularity and many people in-world seem capable of discovering and using it, and it already has officials.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Honorless
edited for clarity

[Steeldancer]

24 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Wonder how Khrissala got off-world.

Iirc, she got off world before autonomy shut Taldain off from the rest of the cosmere. White sand is pretty early in the timeline, and Khriss notes that she hasn't been able to go back. 
I looked through some WoBs, and can't find any direct notation about when Khriss got off world, but I remember hearing from somewhere that she got off before Autonomy shut it off, so if anyone has a source on that, that would be lovely. 
Yeah, you're probably right about the sand. It's probably better as a litmus test for investiture, whereas Nicrosilminds are more suited for actually storing investiture. Although... honestly I'm not even sure how those work. Brandon RAFOs pretty much everything about them. 
You did also miss that there is also the perpendicularity on Threnody, but we basically know jack about that one, besides the fact that it's super unreliable. 
Edit: huh. I did some reading on Threnody... and Brandon says there isn't a perpendicularity. I'm... not sure what to make of that, other than perhaps it just indicates that what's going on there isn't necessarily a permanent piercing of realms, but rather something on a smaller scale due to the death of Ambition? A more recent WoB talks about it being more a circumstance... so I'm not sure. I guess if we're defining a perpendicularity as a mark of a shard having invested there, it makes sense, because no shard ever invested in Threnody, so it wouldn't make sense for a permanent perpendicularity to be there. Weird. 

Edited September 22, 2021 by Steeldancer