Why no parsh genocide between Desolations

[Alcatur]

So, it is something that makes me wonder.

 

In the times of Heraldic Epochs, between Desolations, how did the Parsh people survive? Once the Fused ceased to return, they were quite vulnerable and weaker than humans. I would expect that humans would notice how they serve as a source for new Desolation and some would decide to nip the problem in the bud by killing them off once they are weaker. In this particular situation utilitarian arguments could certainly be raised to justify such activity, of pre-emptive strike (those guys will try to kill us or our descendants in the future, let us strike before they have the chance). Before the Radiants were founded the spren were clearly less discerning about whom they bounded to. 

To be clear I argue not about the morality of solution - but why no one did it; certainly it should occur to at least some people who would be willing to adopt it regardless of how we judge the act. One could expect at least a severe diminish of parsh numbers.

 

Also anyone who answers with Doylist arguments shall be slowly fed by me to small cremlings. 

 

[Inquisitor #5]

Well, humanity is known to have suffered immense losses in the Desolations, sometimes to the tune of nine out of every ten in a kingdom, so they probably didn't have the manpower.

Add to that that even in the present there are largely unmapped and, de facto, unclaimed bits of Roshar, like the Shattered Plains before the Alethi got there.

You have populations that have just survived a brutal war, seemingly catapulted back to the stone age if Taln's mantra is anything to go by, the first order of business isn't to spend all energy and resources to hunt down your enemies here.

Given the surviving population they probably didn't have the manpower and resources to find them all, even if they wanted to.

 

¤_¤

[bmcclure7]

1 hour ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Well, humanity is known to have suffered immense losses in the Desolations, sometimes to the tune of nine out of every ten in a kingdom, so they probably didn't have the manpower.

Add to that that even in the present there are largely unmapped and, de facto, unclaimed bits of Roshar, like the Shattered Plains before the Alethi got there.

You have populations that have just survived a brutal war, seemingly catapulted back to the stone age if Taln's mantra is anything to go by, the first order of business isn't to spend all energy and resources to hunt down your enemies here.

Given the surviving population they probably didn't have the manpower and resources to find them all, even if they wanted to.

 

¤_¤

Yea that pretty much sums it up.

[RedBlue]

Many of the surviving humans probably tried to wipe out the Parsh entirely, but failed due to logistical problems. Roshar’s a big place, and small groups of Parsh could be hiding anywhere. You’d never find them all, especially if you’re short on manpower.

Later, when the Knights Radiant were established, the Radiants would be held to ethical standards that prevent them from going after the Parsh.

[ShardPug]

Are singers actually weaker than human in the past?

Before BAM was captured, I assume singers can always kept their rhythms and forms (at least non-powered ones) between Desolations.

Which means they have warform, nimbleform and many other form, there will not be that much disadvantage unless they are significantly out-numbered.

I don't think human is capable to complete wipe them out, and obviously some orders of Radiants will not agree on genocide. 

[Alcatur]

On 9/22/2021 at 10:28 AM, ShardPug said:

Are singers actually weaker than human in the past?

Before BAM was captured, I assume singers can always kept their rhythms and forms (at least non-powered ones) between Desolations.

Well, they were defeated each time, so obviously they had to be weaker. Heralds went back, as per RoW, once they were certain humanity can prevail; so if victory was possible then its continuation should be possible as well. Besides, with forms, while singers have a very high mobilization rate, casualties they would have to suffer before defeat would be very significant in the first place, so it would be more of finishing the job. 

There doesn't seem to be any singer polity in the era of silver kingdoms, so they were probably scattered and vulnerable to concentrated effort.

On 9/22/2021 at 10:28 AM, ShardPug said:

Which means they have warform, nimbleform and many other form, there will not be that much disadvantage unless they are significantly out-numbered.

I don't think human is capable to complete wipe them out, and obviously some orders of Radiants will not agree on genocide. 

I was thinking mostly in pre - Radiant era. Spren were clearly not as discerning. If Nohadon could go on a conquering spree in the aftermath of a Desolation,  then his successor or predecessor should be able to go for a Singer killing one just as easily.

[Master Silver]

On the topic of wiping out the Singers, I think the Singers must repopulate faster than the humans and also not have infighting. The reason for me thinking this is that before each Desolation, the Heralds come back and find humanity worse off than last time the left it. This will be due in part to losing generational knowledge because so many people die in the desolations. But something more has to be going on. This is from Oathbringer, and I pulled it from the wiki, "she elaborates by saying that songs tell of how the losses compounded upon one another, causing humankind to to slide farther each time, until the Heralds left a people with swords and fabrials and returned to find them wielding sticks and stone axes." From this, it seems like mankind loses knowledge in between desolations, so I'm not sure what is going on. 

But I also wanted to comment on the end of RoW. 

Spoiler

Why not execute all of the Fused (now that they can) and Regals that fall unconscious at the end, when the Tower is taken back. I suppose it could lead to retaliation, but the Fused were going to do that to all the Radiants. It just seems like letting a huge strategic advantage go for no reason. 

 

[Frustration]

16 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

But I also wanted to comment on the end of RoW. 

  Hide contents

Why not execute all of the Fused (now that they can) and Regals that fall unconscious at the end, when the Tower is taken back. I suppose it could lead to retaliation, but the Fused were going to do that to all the Radiants. It just seems like letting a huge strategic advantage go for no reason. 

 

Life before Death.

[Master Silver]

17 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Life before Death.

Good point, the Radiants wouldn't be able to bring themselves to do that. This is why you need Amaran and Saedius around to take care of the uglier and inhumane parts of winning a war, but again just talking about strategy and not morality here. Also, I am kidding about wanting Amaran and Saedius back. 

[Inquisitor #5]

36 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

On the topic of wiping out the Singers, I think the Singers must repopulate faster than the humans and also not have infighting.

Well, the Listeners at least had some infighting, but IIRC it's more ceremonial warfare and less all out killing.

Other than that, seeing as the Singers are physically mature at like age seven, I'd say that they have the capability to replace losses far quicker than humans.

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

But I also wanted to comment on the end of RoW. 

  Hide contents

Why not execute all of the Fused (now that they can) and Regals that fall unconscious at the end, when the Tower is taken back. I suppose it could lead to retaliation, but the Fused were going to do that to all the Radiants. It just seems like letting a huge strategic advantage go for no reason. 

I mean, do they have the proper coordination and resources to get that done?

They'd need to use a limited supply of a resource they can't renew to do so.

They also might not be able to safely identify which are which, given the events leading up to it.

2 hours ago, Master Silver said:

2 hours ago, Frustration said:

Life before Death.

Good point, the Radiants wouldn't be able to bring themselves to do that.

Huh...

I definitely think there can be Radiants who'd do the dirty work, they aren't definitionally moral.

Jasnah had the idea of killing all the Singers, did she not?

Life before Death can't unilaterally mean that life is sacred, Kaladin kills so many for one.

Also, even a Windrunner can rationalise, look at Kaladin when someone tries to argue that he can't do anything as long as they're not a threat.

 

¤_¤

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/4/2021 at 2:52 AM, Alcatur said:

I was thinking mostly in pre - Radiant era. Spren were clearly not as discerning. If Nohadon could go on a conquering spree in the aftermath of a Desolation,  then his successor or predecessor should be able to go for a Singer killing one just as easily.

I mean even now the Stormfather looks at Rathalas and just goes "yeah that's cool makes sense", lol.