Sapient Spren in Gems

[AllHailStick]

Apologies if it has been discussed or I've forgotten something.

What would happen to a sapient spren if it was captured in a gem? We've obviously seen lower spren be captured and we've seen Unmade like the Thrill and Ba-Ado-Mishram (kinda seen) be captured, but what about the in-between? 

Could you manifest some effect from a fabrial made with a Sapient spren? What would happen if the gem was broken and the spren escaped (would the spren experience a loss of function, cognition, etc.). (I think this has been somewhat discussed in some Shardcasts about Ba-Ado-Mishram.) Does this affect bonds (thinking Nahel) in strange ways?

[AllHailStick]

Potential crack theory with little real backing:

If you captured a spren that was bonded with a Radiant, would you would turn the radiant into the Rosharan form of a drab (Nalthis)?

[AllHailStick]

And another theory: 

Say you get a Honorspren in a fabrial, could you use it to elicit more honor as an area of effect sort of buff?

Think flamespren putting off heat, but in a DND buff type of way. Ex) you keep some Honor-rials (patent pending) around your war camp to help keep your soldiers in check.

[Inquisitor #5]

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

Could you manifest some effect from a fabrial made with a Sapient spren?

My personal standpoint is yes. 

If it goes in a gemheart, Nahel bond or Fabrial, it goes in all three, theoretically.

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

What would happen if the gem was broken and the spren escaped (would the spren experience a loss of function, cognition, etc.).

Spren would escape, possibly being somewhat traumatised, otherwise fine, I think.

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

Does this affect bonds (thinking Nahel) in strange ways?

Possibly forcibly severing it, at least de-powering the Radiant if they got too far away, but I think option one or something close to it most likely.

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

If you captured a spren that was bonded with a Radiant, would you would turn the radiant into the Rosharan form of a drab (Nalthis)?

No, bonded spren don't provide extra investiture in the same way as a Breath and barring potential Fifth Ideal shenanigans nothing should be lost by the Radiant in that way, were the bond removed.

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

Say you get a Honorspren in a fabrial, could you use it to elicit more honor as an area of effect sort of buff?

Ehh, I'd guess an honorial would primarily deal with direct expressions of the Windrunner Surges.

We do however need more information, we don't know if emotionspren (or conceptspren) can be made to manifest their corresponding emotion like a phenomenonspren like a flamespren can.

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

Think flamespren putting off heat, but in a DND buff type of way. Ex) you keep some Honor-rials (patent pending) around your war camp to help keep your soldiers in check.

I don't think that'd work, again, we need to see if emotionspren even work like that and I'd think something like "calmspren" would serve such a purpose much better.

Add to that that even if all your soldiers were nudged to be more hounorable, it'd depend in their personal concept of honour, so some might be more likely to cause trouble out of their personal sense of honour.

And it would presumably be a lot like emotional allomancy, you can make people more amenable to what you want, but push too hard and people will notice.

 

Oh, and a tip, at the bottom of your post you should have a button labeled "Edit," you can use that to avoid multi-posting in the future.

 

 

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[AquaRegia]

1)  Double(triple!)-posting is frowned upon in the Shard; if you've made a post and think of something to add (I do this all the time), you can edit your previous post.

2)  I LOVE your profile pic!  Stick, of course, is a legend... but what first looked to me like a solar eclipse "diamond ring" became a dilated eyeball, THEN I saw the detail in the iris is actually Alethi script.  Brilliant!  Is it your work?

3)  I don't have any speculation about Radiant spren or fabrials thereof (I don't feel I know enough yet about how fabrials are made and why they work), but I will say that I think we've already seen sapient spren trapped in gemstones - all the Fused initially got to the Physical Realm contained in gemstones.  Don't Sja-Anat's Enlightened "children" get smuggled into Urithiru inside gemstones?  She also gives some to Taravangian, if I recall.  Seems if they enter the gemstone voluntarily, it's just a convenient way to travel, and when the gem is broken, they are released with no ill effects.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

2 hours ago, AllHailStick said:

If you captured a spren that was bonded with a Radiant, would you would turn the radiant into the Rosharan form of a drab (Nalthis)?

My guess is the effects can vary from "not much", to "Drab", to "slaveform singer", depending on the depth of the bond.

50 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

all the Fused initially got to the Physical Realm contained in gemstones

I thought that was just the initial wave of stormspren, and everything else was via the Everstorm? (Unless you mean gemhearts.)

51 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Don't Sja-Anat's Enlightened "children" get smuggled into Urithiru inside gemstones?

I don't think so, but I'm not super sure. I'll need to reread that at some point.

51 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

She also gives some to Taravangian, if I recall. 

I believe these were non-sapient Enlightened spren, since she was essentially sacrificing them to draw Odium's attention to the area, but not sure if it's specified.

[apepi]

Did Row talk about the elevator spren wanting to manifest as elevators fabrials so they are closer to the physical realm, thus can think more or something? For some reason that is stuck in my mind. I feel like that is an on going theme of some spren wanting to get into the physical realm and bond, so that they can think in it.

[AquaRegia]

@LewsTherinTelescope everything you have said is likely correct... clearly the Stormlight Archive has exceeded the capacity of my brain. 

[Inquisitor #5]

1 hour ago, apepi said:

Did Row talk about the elevator spren wanting to manifest as elevators fabrials so they are closer to the physical realm, thus can think more or something?

I don't think being closer to the Physical would help them think, judging by several of the Nahel spren I'd say rather the opposite.

1 hour ago, apepi said:

I feel like that is an on going theme of some spren wanting to get into the physical realm and bond, so that they can think in it.

Quote

Questioner

What effects does a spren bond have on a Ryshadium? Sapience, or more?

Brandon Sanderson

It increases their intelligence a great deal and gives them a little extra hardiness to survive in Roshar. And in exchange, the spren gets pulled into the Physical Realm, which they really like.

Tor Instagram Livestream (Nov. 25, 2020)

Assuming this is a general rule and not just a musicspren thing, spren like being in/being drawn into the Physical.

As for the old-style fabrials, we know they are spren somehow convinced to manifest as devices, we don't know what convincing them entails and we don't know exactly what kinds of spren can be convinced.

However Voidspren are generally unwilling to do so and Enlightened spren can also do it, assuming Rushu's ID-ing of the suppressor fabrial's spren is correct.

I also feel like most of the non-Sibling Urithiru fabrials should be subspren rather than true spren, being a lift feels like waste if you could make a Radiant.

 

 

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[AllHailStick]

18 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

No, bonded spren don't provide extra investiture in the same way as a Breath and barring potential Fifth Ideal shenanigans nothing should be lost by the Radiant in that way, were the bond removed.

No, I get that they don't provide extra investiture - Nalthis is kinda weird. I suppose I was referring to something like a 5th ideal radiant whos spirit web was heavily interconnected with their spren. If that spren was tossed in a gem, it could potentially be a (spiritually) painful process for both, and I wish I knew the ramifications for it. I'll spoiler my next part just in case (even though this is RoW spoiler territory.

Spoiler

I know it was really agonizing for Teft to lose Phendorana in the way he did, but I think that was more emotional pain than anything. Also, that could be totally unrelated to the spren in a gem idea.

I'm sure we'll have more to go off of in Book 5.

[AllHailStick]

18 hours ago, Inquisitor #5 said:

Oh, and a tip, at the bottom of your post you should have a button labeled "Edit," you can use that to avoid multi-posting in the future.

I didn't realize it was so frowned upon. I really just wanted to separate the various trains of thought for easier threads, but I'll do differently in the future.

[AllHailStick]

18 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

2)  I LOVE your profile pic!  Stick, of course, is a legend... but what first looked to me like a solar eclipse "diamond ring" became a dilated eyeball, THEN I saw the detail in the iris is actually Alethi script.  Brilliant!  Is it your work?

Unfortunately I am not nearly so artistic, just another admirer of sticks. I didn't realize the signature got cut off, but source is below.
The Stick of Resolve, Artwork by Ari Ibarra https://ariirf.com/

[AllHailStick]

5 hours ago, apepi said:

Did Row talk about the elevator spren wanting to manifest as elevators fabrials so they are closer to the physical realm, thus can think more or something? For some reason that is stuck in my mind. I feel like that is an on going theme of some spren wanting to get into the physical realm and bond, so that they can think in it.

I'm not sure about the elevator part. You're on the right track with cognition though. Unless I'm forgetting something, spren can manifest in the physical basically whenever [they have something drawing them there (ie. emotion, a budding radiant, etc.)], but unless they have a bond of some sort, they risk their minds fading away. I think that was what happened on and off with Syl through WoK, right?

Edited August 17, 2021 by AllHailStick

[LewsTherinTelescope]

5 hours ago, AquaRegia said:

@LewsTherinTelescope everything you have said is likely correct... clearly the Stormlight Archive has exceeded the capacity of my brain. 

Lol understandable! Lot of stuff in these books

[Inquisitor #5]

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

No, I get that they don't provide extra investiture - Nalthis is kinda weird. I suppose I was referring to something like a 5th ideal radiant whos spirit web was heavily interconnected with their spren. If that spren was tossed in a gem, it could potentially be a (spiritually) painful process for both, and I wish I knew the ramifications for it.

Yep, Nalthis is kinda weird.

As for Fifth Ideal, beyond the information that the bond could be forcibly severed as long as it's not yet attained, we don't really know anything.

I will agree to it potentially being Spiritually damaging, but I don't think the damage would have to be extensive.

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

I know it was really agonizing for Teft to lose Phendorana in the way he did, but I think that was more emotional pain than anything. Also, that could be totally unrelated to the spren in a gem idea.

I'd say that's probably quite relevant, my read is more so that it's metaphysical agony, soul pain if you will, though I don't think the damage was severe, as Teft still functioned.

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

I'm sure we'll have more to go off of in Book 5.

I hope so too.

19 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

My guess is the effects can vary from "not much", to "Drab", to "slaveform singer", depending on the depth of the bond.

I have trouble agreeing with "Drab," I just don't see the mechanism for it.

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

Unless I'm forgetting something, spren can manifest in the physical basically whenever [they have something drawing them there (ie. emotion, a budding radiant, etc.)], but unless they have a bond of some sort, they risk their minds fading away.

Most of them seem to be beings of instinct anyway, so I'm not sure how much of a mind a subspren has to lose.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

I didn't realize it was so frowned upon.

Yeah, there are forum rules and such.

Here's the Code of Conduct, it also has some other links, like the Etiquette Guide up top: 

 

1 hour ago, AllHailStick said:

I really just wanted to separate the various trains of thought for easier threads, but I'll do differently in the future.

Line breaks are your friend. 

 

 

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[Jondesu]

3 hours ago, AllHailStick said:

Unfortunately I am not nearly so artistic, just another admirer of sticks. I didn't realize the signature got cut off, but source is below.
The Stick of Resolve, Artwork by Ari Ibarra https://ariirf.com/

Ari Ibarra is one of the best Cosmere (and other universe) artists I’ve run across! I follow them on one of those art websites as well as Instagram.

Edit: ArtStation is where I follow them: https://www.artstation.com/ariirf

Edited August 17, 2021 by Jondesu