Anti-intent?

[ScadrianTank]

On 03.08.2021 at 7:25 PM, mathiau said:

Matter is but a type of energy

Not a physics person, but isn't energy more of a property of a thing than an actual thing?

On 13.07.2021 at 10:16 PM, Waffles said:

Does anti-investiture have anti-intent?

If you want to call opposite intent - anti-intent, then sure.

On 13.07.2021 at 10:16 PM, Waffles said:

Basically does antistormlight break oaths?

Does love generate antivoidlight?

basically does anti-investiture carry an anti-intent?

I don't think it works that way. A Shard is a piece of a being or force that created everything, so far as people in the cosmere know. Basically, a lower case g-d with a case for capital g, depending on your religious and spiritual views. So Shards Intent encompasses a lot more than what is traditionally associated with them. Honor, for example, also represents the natural laws of the cosmere, so if his anti-Investiture just inverted all the Shard represented - reality itself would unravel around it. 

[mathiau]

4 minutes ago, ScadrianTank said:

Not a physics person, but isn't energy more of a property of a thing than an actual thing?

I meant "massive matter" instead of just "matter", thanks for pointing it out

And whether or not energy is a thing or a property feels more like philosophy than physics

On 03/08/2021 at 6:27 PM, spaidapig said:

But it is not the same

What do you mean they're not the same?

[spaidapig]

2 minutes ago, mathiau said:

What do you mean they're not the same?

I'm not 100% certain on this topic as I'm fortunately not studying physics (It's super interesting but the Maths is a pain in the ass).

But we know from the relativity Theorie that E=m*c^2, with E being the inner oder free Energy of a mass m, and the lightspeed c.

With this equation we are able to calculate the energy that is "produced" by nuclear fission and fusion. As in our universe nothing can really be created, but only converted, that energy needs to come from somewhere. This energy results from the massdefect from nuclear reaction.

So in our universe there are two states. Energy vs matter. They can be converted into the other one, but they are definitely different things.

 

 

This can then be applied to the Cosmere. The only difference here, we have three states. Energy, matter and Investiture. They can be converted into each other, but something cannot be two at the same time.

So a stone is made up of matter. The Energy of it's atomic bonds is keeping it together. And it probably has Investiture to some degree.

I hope this makes sense.

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Aurimus

As the two Realms, the Cognitive and the Spiritual, are, well, fictional... Are they all comprised of Investiture, completely?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. No, completely? Well, here's the thing. Investiture, matter, and energy are all the same thing in the cosmere. So, just like energy and matter are the same thing here. So, yes, everything's made of Investiture, in the same way that everything's made of energy in our world. Does that make sense?

Aurimus

So, what about what spren are made of in the Cognitive Realm? Is that just Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

So, yeah, I'll dig more into that. I'm gonna go with Investiture for now, but I could change that as I move along. What I'm kind of debating is, is there a separate Cognitive state, and I don't think so. So I'm gonna go with Investiture for now.

Aurimus

How about Connection?

Brandon Sanderson

Connection is, like, the equivalent of a quantum connection in our world, so it's more like a force than something comprised of something. The question is like, "What is gravity comprised of?" And then you start asking weird questions.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

This is the WoB I was referring to.

 

So in conclusion matter and energy are different "forms", maybe the wrong word but can't think of something better rn, of the thing the universe is made of. And the Cosmere there are three of these forms.

[mathiau]

2 minutes ago, spaidapig said:

I'm not 100% certain on this topic as I'm fortunately not studying physics (It's super interesting but the Maths is a pain in the ass).

Please don't insult maths while there's scientists whithin earshot. Like me.

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I'm not 100% certain on this topic as I'm fortunately not studying physics

To be fair particle physics is not my speciality, I'm more of a light-matter guy, but I still had some special relativity and subatomic physics courses

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But we know from the relativity Theorie that E=m*c^2, with E being the inner oder free Energy of a mass m, and the lightspeed c.

I don't know what "inner oder" means and I don't know what you mean by free Energy (the only type of free Energy I remember is a thermodynamic notion which have nothing to do here, but it's possible it's just the french jargon and the english jargon being different)

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With this equation we are able to calculate the energy that is "produced" by nuclear fission and fusion. As in our universe nothing can really be created, but only converted, that energy needs to come from somewhere. This energy results from the massdefect from nuclear reaction.

Actually, this is the opposite, the method is "calculate/measure the energy of the fundamental state of an atom, compare with what mc^2 would give if there was no defect, deduce the value of the defect".

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As in our universe nothing can really be created, but only converted, that energy needs to come from somewhere.

In the current version of physics, there's a theorem called Noether's theorem that say that (among other thing) the senses "the total energy of the universe is constant" and "the laws of physics don't change over time" are equivalent. If mass was not a type of energy then

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So in our universe there are two states. Energy vs matter. They can be converted into the other one, but they are definitely different things.

Actually, what are you calling Energy? What are these thing in this state of Energy?

[spaidapig]

6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Please don't insult maths while there's scientists whithin earshot. Like me.

Oh I'd never dare insulting Maths. Maths is awesome. Just the Maths in Physics are often, let's say interesting. I'm studying Maths myself, so that was never meant as an insult.

9 minutes ago, mathiau said:

I don't know what "inner oder" means and I don't know what you mean by free Energy (the only type of free Energy I remember is a thermodynamic notion which have nothing to do here, but it's possible it's just the french jargon and the english jargon being different)

That was a typo. Should have been "or".

Possible that I confused the terms, I'm not a native speaker myself, so a bit gets lost in translation. But what I meant was the inner Energy of a closed system.

But I didn't want to get too technical here, as I'm not an expert myself.

I know that the total energy of a system also includes the mass of the matter. Is it called rest energy in english?

 

Iirc matter can't just be converted to energy and vice versa. Like you can't just destroy protons, neutrons and electrons and gain energy from that. But as I said, I'm not deep enough into that, so I can be wrong about this.

 

After further reading I'm even more confused than before and I'm kind of getting the feeling, that these are all just different forms of energy and that matter equals the rest mass energy. In top there are other forms like heat, kinetics, potential, etc.?

[metal get in my tummy]

On 14/07/2021 at 6:07 PM, Leuthie said:

 

• Investiture annihilation results in Energy.
  • Explosions are created when this Energy is contained in a vessel smaller than required to hold the Energy (as in a gem).

Anti-matter bombs confirmed. We are going to see planets crack in space age Cosmere. I am so ready.

[Leuthie]

On 8/5/2021 at 3:44 AM, Telantes said:

Anti-matter bombs confirmed. We are going to see planets crack in space age Cosmere. I am so ready.

It actually seems conventional nuclear processes (conventional nuclear?) would be more efficient than Investiture annihilation, especially considering the opportunity cost lost by destroying so much Investiture.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Leuthie

[Frustration]

On 8/6/2021 at 10:13 AM, Leuthie said:

It actually seems conventional nuclear processes (conventional nuclear?) would be more efficient than Investiture annihilation, especially considering the opportunity cost lost by destroying so much Investiture.

Um, coneventional nulcear, even thermo-nuclear is so much less powerful than anti-matter it's unreal.

.2 grams of matter turned into energy, meaning .1 gram of matter .1 of anti-matter would create an exlosion more poweful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

With soulcastig anti-matter could potentially be madeen mass.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

Um, coneventional nulcear, even thermo-nuclear is so much less powerful than anti-matter it's unreal.

Anti-Investiture seems to not be as easy/efficient, though, considering a gemful only destroys the contents of a room, and when it's not as pressurized it doesn't even explode at all and just burns some stuff. (Well, either it's less efficient or Investiture is far less energy-dense, but either way the end result is it's far weaker.)

13 hours ago, Frustration said:

.2 grams of matter turned into energy, meaning .1 gram of matter .1 of anti-matter would create an exlosion more poweful than the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined.

Not a physicist, but from the numbers I can find, this is significantly off (though antimatter is still absurdly explosive, just not as much as what you said). From what I can find, 1 gram (0.5 matter + 0.5 antimatter) would be around 1.4x the energy of the Hiroshima bomb (though someone here pointed out that that increase in energy does not translate to a 40% increase in damage, I think it was something like 13% wider radius? but again, I'm not a person who knows this math myself). Which is pretty dang crazy, but is far less than 0.2g = larger than both combined.

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Anti-Investiture seems to not be as easy/efficient, though, considering a gemful only destroys the contents of a room, and when it's not as pressurized it doesn't even explode at all and just burns some stuff. (Well, either it's less efficient or Investiture is far less energy-dense, but either way the end result is it's far weaker.)

Yes, but Soulcasting should get you anti-matter

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Not a physicist, but from the numbers I can find, this is significantly off (though antimatter is still absurdly explosive, just not as much as what you said). From what I can find, 1 gram (0.5 matter + 0.5 antimatter) would be around 1.4x the energy of the Hiroshima bomb (though someone here pointed out that that increase in energy does not translate to a 40% increase in damage, I think it was something like 13% wider radius? but again, I'm not a person who knows this math myself). Which is pretty dang crazy, but is far less than 0.2g = larger than both combined.

Hiroshima bomb released 63 TJ of energy

Nagasaki bomb released 84

.2 is about 17, so yeah I was way off,

2 grams is 170 though so I might have been thinking that.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

6 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Yes, but Soulcasting should get you anti-matter

The thing mentioned that your response was to was about Investiture annihilation, though. (Well, one person mentioned antimatter bombs, but did so in the context of Investiture annihilation, which to me carried the implication they were saying anti-Investiture was analogous to antimatter for this, which doesn't seem to be the case.)

(Also, it's unconfirmed if Soulcasting can get you antimatter or not, I could see Brandon putting some wibbly wobbly rule in place about it to prevent most Lightweavers/Elsecallers/people with Soulcasters from just utterly destroying planets. But yeah, if they can, then that's way more effective than pretty much anything else you could do with that Light, if pure utter devastation is what you're after.)

Edited August 8, 2021 by LewsTherinTelescope

[mathiau]

On 04/08/2021 at 11:46 PM, spaidapig said:

Oh I'd never dare insulting Maths. Maths is awesome. Just the Maths in Physics are often, let's say interesting. I'm studying Maths myself, so that was never meant as an insult.

Ok, then it's the approximation you don't like? I understand it's not for everyone

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That was a typo. Should have been "or".

Possible that I confused the terms, I'm not a native speaker myself, so a bit gets lost in translation. But what I meant was the inner Energy of a closed system.

But I didn't want to get too technical here, as I'm not an expert myself.

I know that the total energy of a system also includes the mass of the matter. Is it called rest energy in english?

I think it's call rest energy yes

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Iirc matter can't just be converted to energy and vice versa. Like you can't just destroy protons, neutrons and electrons and gain energy from that. But as I said, I'm not deep enough into that, so I can be wrong about this.

Depends what you mean by gain energy, in my mind a proton is already some energy so of course destroying a proton won't give you more energy. But if you mean liberating energy as photons, gluons and kinetic energy then you indeed have no transition that goes proton-> nothing with any mass or the like BUT you have the transition neutron->proton+electron+electronic neutrino+light which can spontaneously happen (it generally doesn't happen in matter because the increasing the number of proton increase the colomb repulsion and therefore decrease the mass gap, which can be enough for the right part to be more massive than the left one) depending on what exactly you mean by "destroying neutrons and gaining energy for that" it can count

Also you have the neutral pions, particles made from one up quark an one up anti-quark that can spontaneously transform to light or gluons and yet are the reason nuclei are can be stable

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After further reading I'm even more confused than before and I'm kind of getting the feeling, that these are all just different forms of energy and that matter equals the rest mass energy. In top there are other forms like heat, kinetics, potential, etc.?

Yes

Just now, Frustration said:

Yes, but Soulcasting should get you anti-matter

Hiroshima bomb released 63 TJ of energy

Nagasaki bomb released 84

.2 is about 17, so yeah I was way off,

2 grams is 170 though so I might have been thinking that.

Yes, as the rule of tumb is "1g of energy ~1 Nagasaki"

21 minutes ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

The thing mentioned that your response was to was about Investiture annihilation, though. (Well, one person mentioned antimatter bombs, but did so in the context of Investiture annihilation, which to me carried the implication they were saying anti-Investiture was analogous to antimatter for this, which doesn't seem to be the case.)

(Also, it's unconfirmed if Soulcasting can get you antimatter or not, I could see Brandon putting some wibbly wobbly rule in place about it to prevent most Lightweavers/Elsecallers/people with Soulcasters from just utterly destroying planets. But yeah, if they can, then that's way more effective than pretty much anything else you could do with that Light, if pure utter devastation is what you're after.)

We have WoBs implying there's nothing preventing a Soulcaster from transforming things into plutonium, which would create explosions far worse than 1g of energy

[spaidapig]

8 minutes ago, mathiau said:

 

Quote

After further reading I'm even more confused than before and I'm kind of getting the feeling, that these are all just different forms of energy and that matter equals the rest mass energy. In top there are other forms like heat, kinetics, potential, etc.?

Yes

Okay, so after all, I think I have to agree with you. And thank you for the short digression.

But where do you think we should put Investiture in the equation? 

Is Investiture another form of Energy, or is everythink just a form of Investiture?

[LewsTherinTelescope]

15 minutes ago, mathiau said:

We have WoBs implying there's nothing preventing a Soulcaster from transforming things into plutonium, which would create explosions far worse than 1g of energy

Sure, but some amount of antimatter would be far worse than an equal mass of plutonium, right? Soulcasting wouldn't be limited to just a gram, I assume, so it'd be preeeeeetty dangerous.

(If I'm misunderstanding any of how this works, please correct me, of course.)

[Frustration]

2 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Sure, but some amount of antimatter would be far worse than an equal mass of plutonium, right? Soulcasting wouldn't be limited to just a gram, I assume, so it'd be preeeeeetty dangerous.

(If I'm misunderstanding any of how this works, please correct me, of course.)

You are entirely correct, Nuclear fusion is horrifically bad at changing mass into energy, well compared to anti-matter at least.

1g of antimatter is so much more powerful than 1gram of plutonium it's unreal

[mathiau]

11 hours ago, spaidapig said:

Okay, so after all, I think I have to agree with you. And thank you for the short digression.

But where do you think we should put Investiture in the equation? 

Is Investiture another form of Energy, or is everythink just a form of Investiture?

Bradon said it was "everything is a form of Investiture"

11 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Sure, but some amount of antimatter would be far worse than an equal mass of plutonium, right? Soulcasting wouldn't be limited to just a gram, I assume, so it'd be preeeeeetty dangerous.

(If I'm misunderstanding any of how this works, please correct me, of course.)

9 hours ago, Frustration said:

You are entirely correct, Nuclear fusion is horrifically bad at changing mass into energy, well compared to anti-matter at least.

1g of antimatter is so much more powerful than 1gram of plutonium it's unreal

What you're missing is the diminishing returns of increasing the explosion's energy, 10kg of anti-matter may cause more destruction than 10kg of plutonium but neither will cause much more usefull destruction than a 1g.c² explosion, once you're able to destroy cities in one transformation increasing the energy won't do much.

[metal get in my tummy]

On 06/08/2021 at 5:13 PM, Leuthie said:

It actually seems conventional nuclear processes (conventional nuclear?) would be more efficient than Investiture annihilation, especially considering the opportunity cost lost by destroying so much Investiture.

17 hours ago, LewsTherinTelescope said:

Anti-Investiture seems to not be as easy/efficient, though, considering a gemful only destroys the contents of a room, and when it's not as pressurized it doesn't even explode at all and just burns some stuff. (Well, either it's less efficient or Investiture is far less energy-dense, but either way the end result is it's far weaker.)

Okay but think about it like this. At some point they will find a way to convert gaseous investiture (Light) into solid (Metal). That would pack a lot more punch. Since anti-investiture doesn't actually interact destructively with matter, I was thinking this for a device:

Two large sheets of metal investiture and metal anti-investiture separated by a highly pressurised gas/liquid so that they do not touch. The sheets should be as thin as possible to maximise surface area of contact, because upon contact anything not too close by would be knocked away by the explosion and would not actually get a chance to annihilate. When ready for boom, depressurise chamber, metals touch, kapow. Make these sheets several hundreds of metres wide and you're basically shooting a giant frisbee of doom at whichever unfortunate civilisation has insulted your horse.

Edit: Actually, you could easily layer this several times over so it wouldn't need to be so long. You could make into any giant <insert your favourite 3D shape> of doom.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2021 by Telantes

[Frustration]

On 8/9/2021 at 3:01 AM, mathiau said:

What you're missing is the diminishing returns of increasing the explosion's energy, 10kg of anti-matter may cause more destruction than 10kg of plutonium but neither will cause much more usefull destruction than a 1g.c² explosion, once you're able to destroy cities in one transformation increasing the energy won't do much.

Given that 1,000 grams or even Kilograms isn't unreasonable for soulcasters, and the amount of kilotons of nuclear payload that is equivelant to is more than the nuke simulater I was able to find is capable of processing I think anti-matter can easily get to country levels of destruction

[mathiau]

7 hours ago, Frustration said:

Given that 1,000 grams or even Kilograms isn't unreasonable for soulcasters, and the amount of kilotons of nuclear payload that is equivelant to is more than the nuke simulater I was able to find is capable of processing I think anti-matter can easily get to country levels of destruction

Well I found one that can https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ (1kg of energy is roughly 20 000 kilotons of TNT, less than half the energy of the biggest bomb tested) 1kg of antimatter exploding on the ground (which is what we'd be doing with soulcasting) wouldn't even destroy the full Paris region.

Remember, the radius of the explosion grows in energy^(1/3) so multiplying the energy buy 1 000 only mutiply the radius by 10

[Frustration]

7 hours ago, mathiau said:

Well I found one that can https://nuclearsecrecy.com/nukemap/ (1kg of energy is roughly 20 000 kilotons of TNT, less than half the energy of the biggest bomb tested) 1kg of antimatter exploding on the ground (which is what we'd be doing with soulcasting) wouldn't even destroy the full Paris region.

Remember, the radius of the explosion grows in energy^(1/3) so multiplying the energy buy 1 000 only mutiply the radius by 10

That's the one I was using

I ment 1,000 kg is more than it can handle

[mathiau]

3 hours ago, Frustration said:

That's the one I was using

I ment 1,000 kg is more than it can handle

Well, it'd just be roughy ten times bigger than what you get with 1kg, which is indeed country-side destruction (roughly as big as Ireland) but is also something you can do by transforming buildings into plutonium in ten different cities (by the way, we have confirmation Elsecallers can soulcast objects of the PR while in the CR)

[Frustration]

55 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Well, it'd just be roughy ten times bigger than what you get with 1kg, which is indeed country-side destruction (roughly as big as Ireland) but is also something you can do by transforming buildings into plutonium in ten different cities (by the way, we have confirmation Elsecallers can soulcast objects of the PR while in the CR)

I wouldn't even sugest anti-matter if it were otherwise