Zrogezrg Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 After reading epilogue I thought that there is strong possibility that more memories than the ones of his first dialogue with Odium were destroyed. It is hard to guess what could it be as we do not know most things that Hoid witnesses but I will try. How about memories of relationship with Jasnah? Maybe he even wanted those memories gone to help him move towards his next objectives after "holding" Odium on Roshar with Dalinar's contract?
Use the Falchion Posted July 13, 2021 Posted July 13, 2021 I don't think that would be the case, or at least not the extreme you're taking it to. Toddie wants to erase suspicion that he's not Rayse, not take away all of Hoid's memories. Toddie erasing memories of Hoid's inclusions to the Contract would definitely give more away, since it would point to tampering with his memory more than anything else (outside of the lost Breathes of course). 3
Stefano Posted July 15, 2021 Posted July 15, 2021 I have the suspect that the whole thing was planned by Hoid, and he didn't bond a cryptic just by coincidence
Zrogezrg Posted July 16, 2021 Author Posted July 16, 2021 19 hours ago, Stefano said: I have the suspect that the whole thing was planned by Hoid, and he didn't bond a cryptic just by coincidence It is hard to say what Hoid planned, we know that he manipulates fortune to know where to go, but not necessarily why he should go there. In RoW Hoid "makes" many mistakes, having hordling as pen, having memories destroyed. Previously it seemed like he was usually few steps ahead, so maybe there is more to those errors. In stormlight, Hoids seems like a really nice guys, he aids Kal, Shallan in their moments of need, he shares his knowledge with Dalinar and Jasnah. But on Sel he stole scepter and let Shai be captured, he attacked and refused to aid Kelsier with any information and then took bead of lerasium. I wonder if he does similar things on Roshar too but this time offscreen. My main issue with him letting Odium destroy his memories is that he could probably do it himself with use of Breath of some soul stamping. Unless his inability to harm others also makes him unable to alter himself in this manner. Before he picks Design up, he provokes others to harm him to make his disguise work better. Maybe he does that not only for show, but because that is the only way he can do that to himself. 1
Stefano Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 On 16/7/2021 at 1:29 PM, Zrogezrg said: It is hard to say what Hoid planned, we know that he manipulates fortune to know where to go, but not necessarily why he should go there. In RoW Hoid "makes" many mistakes, having hordling as pen, having memories destroyed. Previously it seemed like he was usually few steps ahead, so maybe there is more to those errors. In stormlight, Hoids seems like a really nice guys, he aids Kal, Shallan in their moments of need, he shares his knowledge with Dalinar and Jasnah. But on Sel he stole scepter and let Shai be captured, he attacked and refused to aid Kelsier with any information and then took bead of lerasium. I wonder if he does similar things on Roshar too but this time offscreen. My main issue with him letting Odium destroy his memories is that he could probably do it himself with use of Breath of some soul stamping. Unless his inability to harm others also makes him unable to alter himself in this manner. Before he picks Design up, he provokes others to harm him to make his disguise work better. Maybe he does that not only for show, but because that is the only way he can do that to himself. Hoid is e very complex and mistrious character, but i guess that, in this specific situation, he bonded a cryptic to be able to restore lost memories. And it's suspicious that he makes design go away just before meeting "Rayse"
Zrogezrg Posted July 19, 2021 Author Posted July 19, 2021 21 minutes ago, Stefano said: Hoid is e very complex and mistrious character, but i guess that, in this specific situation, he bonded a cryptic to be able to restore lost memories. And it's suspicious that he makes design go away just before meeting "Rayse" I never thought that cryptics allow for restoration of lost memories. I would guess that Hoid does not want to show Design to Odium, but the fact that he is a radiant is common knowledge so I guess the reason is different from not revealing him. Maybe Odium could do something to Design.
Weltall Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 (edited) On 7/13/2021 at 11:51 AM, Zrogezrg said: After reading epilogue I thought that there is strong possibility that more memories than the ones of his first dialogue with Odium were destroyed. It is hard to guess what could it be as we do not know most things that Hoid witnesses but I will try. How about memories of relationship with Jasnah? I can't think of a single reason why Todium would want to remove those memories since the more he alters, the more likely it is that Hoid will notice what's been done. By removing something as major as memories of a relationship, not only does it dramatically increase the risk that Hoid notices something's wrong but it exponentially increases the odds that somebody else notices that he's acting differently. Todium's entire purpose in messing with Hoid's memories there was to erase a few minutes worth of conversation to hide the blunder that gave away that Rayse isn't Odium's Vessel any more, anything beyond that would potentially compromise that goal and at least put Hoid on his guard. This is of course setting aside the theory that Hoid engineered some part of that confrontation, witness how he had just enough Breath that the damage done dropped him off the Second Heightening. Edited July 19, 2021 by Weltall 1
Zrogezrg Posted July 19, 2021 Author Posted July 19, 2021 8 minutes ago, Weltall said: remove those memories But do we know that Odium knows what was in the memories that he destroys? Quote Katelyn Gigante After the epilogue, when Odium took Hoid's memories, did he gain them or just remove them? Brandon Sanderson He removed them, he did not gain them. He excised them, he performed a little surgery on the Breaths. You have seen this happen before in the books, though I will not give spoilers to another book. It happened on a different world. YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020) It seems like to me that he does not know what was in the memories. I think that he had an option of "formating" Breaths that hold the memories without "reading the files" on them. The other possibility which supports your position is that Odium knew what he was erasing, but after he finished, he lost the memories. But we did not see memories work this way as far as I know. With copperminds, one loses the memories as one puts then in metal, but that seems different that erasing somebodies elses memories. In above WoB, Brandon mentions that the action was similar to one in the other book. That is most likely, Vasher in Warbreaker when he makes little girl forget her kidnapping. We do not know how that precisly works, but it seems that it was internal thing that happened in her mind. 1
Weltall Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 1 hour ago, Zrogezrg said: It seems like to me that he does not know what was in the memories. I think that he had an option of "formating" Breaths that hold the memories without "reading the files" on them. I think you're reading more into that statement than Brandon intended. He said that Todium didn't gain the memories he excised, which sounds more like 'I'll take these Breath-stored memories from you and take them for myself as if the Breath was being transferred' or like you could 'gain' memories out of a coppermind. The analogy isn't as different as you think; once the memory is in the coppermind it's a fungible asset that can be transferred but it can't be copied... though it can be altered, as we see Ruin do to Sazed and historically did to Kwaan. It's not unprecedented in the Cosmere for externally stored memories to be tampered with. In the alternative, even if he doesn't know exactly what was in the memories all he would need or want to do is remove the most recent memories so as to erase the last few minutes from Hoid's recollection. Excising something as huge as Hoid's memories of a relationship with another person would mean tampering with lots of memories and not only that, it would require very specific tampering of the kind that you don't think Odium is capable of to target those and only those memories. Remember that the entire point of Odium messing with Hoid's memories is to try and hide the fact that he gave away that 'Odium' and 'Rayse' are no longer synonymous, while still allowing a do-over of the conversation to happen in order to reinforce the desired outcome. If Hoid comes away from the experience with obvious holes in his memory, he may not know exactly what happened but he's gonna know that something happened and that's going to put him on his guard in the exact way that Todium wanted to avoid in the first place.
Zrogezrg Posted July 19, 2021 Author Posted July 19, 2021 Well, I think the resulotion that no other memories of Hoid were erased other than his last few minutes is boring. Maybe it will be what really happened but I doubt it. In epilogue, Odium says that he can "see these" when refering to memories, so @Weltall you may be right. 1 hour ago, Weltall said: Remember that the entire point of Odium messing with Hoid's memories is to try and hide the fact that he gave away that 'Odium' and 'Rayse' are no longer synonymous, while still allowing a do-over of the conversation to happen in order to reinforce the desired outcome. I would not presume that it was the only reason for his actions, but anyway, once he looks into those memories, why wouldn't Odium try to influnce Hoid in someway? Taravangian can plan long term and is resourceful, hence, I think he would try to use this opportunity. But still, in those Breaths were memories that Hoid chose to put there. So there is possibility that he could still manipulate Odium to delete some of them. As @Stefano mentioned, Design was sent away before their meeting, maybe allowing for sticking some Breath with other memories with him. That would explain why Hoid is having issues with his perfect pitch as he needs to reunite with those breath to reach necessary Heightening. The Breaths shouldn't be destroyed as when Vasher did this, the girls Breath just flickered.
Stefano Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 4 hours ago, Zrogezrg said: I never thought that cryptics allow for restoration of lost memories. I would guess that Hoid does not want to show Design to Odium, but the fact that he is a radiant is common knowledge so I guess the reason is different from not revealing him. Maybe Odium could do something to Design. Shallan had to remember lost memories, they speak truths instead of oaths, something tells me that design is able to make he remember
LuckyJim Posted July 19, 2021 Posted July 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Stefano said: Shallan had to remember lost memories, they speak truths instead of oaths, something tells me that design is able to make he remember That's more of a personal journey of addressing repressed memories in order to heal and progress. Pattern didn't help Shallan remember those events any more than Syl helped Kaladin reach the breakthroughs of his oaths. (To be clear, she did help but more in a supportive friend way) 1
LewsTherinTelescope Posted July 20, 2021 Posted July 20, 2021 On 7/19/2021 at 2:46 PM, Zrogezrg said: The Breaths shouldn't be destroyed as when Vasher did this, the girls Breath just flickered. Worth noting that Vasher taught her to do it to herself, whereas Odium was doing it externally and so probably has less flexibility in how he can manipulate it. Quote Kingsdaughter613 When Warbreaker has the priest's daughter manipulate her Breath, it doesn't appear to be permanently damaged afterwards. Like, Vivenna notes it flickers, but it seems to go back to what it was before, and Hoid loses some when Odium does something very very similar. Why is that? Brandon Sanderson Yes. Odium was being more invasive and more destructive. And is less practiced at what was happening. JordanCon 2021 (July 16, 2021)
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