Is cadmium still toxic on Scadrial?

[ScadrianTank he/him]

The title pretty much says it. I get that Allomantic cadmium should be safer because the time of exposure isn't long, but having a Metalmind made of cadmium constantly in contact with the skin should still cause damage, correct? Or is there something Harmony did that protects people from toxic metal exposure?

[Bejarden he/him]

I don’t know if this extends to Fuerechemy but I imagine it does:

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rederel

Now i'm morbidly curious whether u/mistborn has considered it [cadmium poisoning] while writing his books.

Brandon Sanderson

I have, actually. Though I had to consider it for other metals first. I decided that allomancers are immune to these kinds of effects--they're just physiologically different in that regard.

https://wob.coppermind.net/events/456/#e14804

 

 

[Zoey she/her]

I see it as a mix of burning it away and them having a sort of immunity. It is a handwave, but it is not completely unfeasible to simply not have it react in the toxic manner. According to Wikipedia on Cadmium Toxicity...

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Inside cells, cadmium ions act as a catalytic hydrogen peroxide generator. This sudden surge of cytosolic hydrogen peroxide causes increased lipid peroxidation and additionally depletes ascorbate and glutathione stores. Hydrogen peroxide can also convert thiol groups on proteins into nonfunctional sulfonic acids and is also capable of directly attacking nuclear DNA. This oxidative stress causes the afflicted cell to manufacture large amounts of inflammatory cytokines.^[18][19]

and according to https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7312803/

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The liver and kidneys are extremely sensitive to cadmium’s toxic effects. This may be due to the ability of these tissues to synthesize metallothioneins (MT), which are Cd-inducible proteins that protect the cell by tightly binding the toxic cadmium ions....

Low levels exposure to Cd may lead to damage to the kidneys, liver, skeletal system, and cardiovascular system, as well as to deterioration of sight and hearing. Along with strong teratogenic and mutagenic effects related to cadmium, it also shows adverse effects at low doses on both human male and female reproduction and affects pregnancy or its outcome [42]. This is due to changes in the expression of many genes in the embryo, leading to the aberrant methylation of them within the placenta and the embryo. The epigenetic modification patterns induced by cadmium have been linked to their ability to easily bind to thiols with depletion of the methyl donor S-adenosyl methionine, resulting in methylome alterations, and subsequently, to alteration of DNA methyltransferase activity. This may cause placental and fetal development disorders....

Cd may interact with different hormonal signaling pathways and is considered an endocrine disruptor that may bind estrogen receptor alpha and affect signaling transduction along estrogen and MAPK signaling pathways.

All of the issues with this Cadmium, and many other toxic metals, is the manner in which it Binds to Cells. Therefore, it could be that the cells of Allomancers are able to recognize the structure of things like Cadmium, and refuse to interact with it. This would make sense due to how much Magic Systems deal with ones Spiritweb, which effects the Cognitive Self, and thus the Physical Self. So it is very plausible as I see it that it simply does not undergo these reactions. I do recall it being mentioned that other, non-allomantic metals can be fatal. 

So yeah, likely just having the Spiritweb make their body not have the reactions that bring about the toxicity of certain metals through recognition of Cadmium Ions. It is a handwave, but it would work with the Laws of the world, and if the cells were made to not react to it, it would indeed bring about this immunity. So not completely unscientific. 

Another theory, from the same paper,

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Moreover, biologically active compounds that occur naturally in plants may be useful for preventing the deleterious health effects resulting from exposure to heavy metals, including cadmium. These exposure compounds include polyphenolic substances, melatonin, carotenoids, quercetine, resveratrol, vitamin E, vitamin C, L-carnitine, and coenzyme Q10 [53,54,55,56]. Among these substances, the polyphenols and antioxidants present in our daily diet in vegetables, fruits, and spices, as well as in drinks like green tea, red wine, and cocoa, are very promising (Table 2) [57,58,59,60,61]. The protective effect of polyphenols derives from their strong antioxidant properties and their ability to chelate cadmium ions. Due to the high affinity of cadmium ions to hydroxyl groups and the ability to increase the expression of intestinal MT, polyphenols decrease the absorption of this xenobiotic metal from the gastrointestinal tract [62]...

The protective role of β-carotene on cadmium-induced kidney and brain damage has recently been reported [65]. Moreover, royal jelly seems to attenuate Cd-induced nephrotoxicity, probably due to its ability of promoting the nuclear factor erythroid 2–related factor 2 (Nrf2)/antioxidant responsive element (ARE) pathway [66]. Recently, it has been demonstrated that a supplement of glutamate, but not glutamine, significantly alleviated Cd toxicity in hydroponically grown rice plants, probably by suppressing Cd uptake and translocation [67].

Biologically speaking they could also have chemicals produced against it, as mentioned before, Polyphenolic Substances, Melatonin, Carotenoids, Quercetine, Resveratrol, Vitamin E, Vitamin C, L-Carnitine, Coenzyme Q10, and Beta-Carotene. It is possible that they could produce such chemicals in response to Cadmium. 

Melatonin in particular is naturally produced by the pineal gland in humans. 

Coenzyme Q10 is also produced naturally in humans, so they could have a higher level of Coenzyme Q10. 

[ScadrianTank he/him]

1 hour ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I don’t know if this extends to Fuerechemy but I imagine it does:

Thanks, haven't seen that one. I wonder if he changed his mind on the matter because Kel said this in the Final Empire:

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“First,” Kelsier said, “remember to burn away any unused metals you have inside of you at the end of the night. Some of the metals we use can be poisonous if digested; it’s best not to sleep with them in your stomach.”

 

[The Technovore he/him]

Actually that was Kel misattributing the cause of his horrible stomach cramps after he ate some bad street food.

[king of nowhere]

i'd point out, though, that allomantic cadmium may not too dangerous anyway.

cadmium is most dangerous when small dust is inhaled. this is a major industrial hazard, if you are doing cadmium metalworking you will have cadmium dust all around, but it does not apply to eating the dust. then there are many cadmium compounds that are highly toxic, but the thing is, if it does not dissolve in some way, the body will not absorb it, it will be excreted, and it will not be toxic. toxicity requires that the substance actually enters your body, not that it passes through your guts without being absorbed.

now, cadmium is not oxidized too easily, but i'm not sure how it would withstand the stomach. a quick search did not find conclusive data, if the stomach can oxidize cadmium, then yes, eating cadmium dust would get cadmium inside your blood and that would be bad.

as for a metalmind, again, there is the whole absorption thing; as long as the metalmind stays solid metal, it should not be dangerous.

Still, i would not want to have regular exposure to cadmium without some form of protection

[Kingsdaughter613 she/her]

On 6/20/2021 at 9:01 PM, king of nowhere said:

i'd point out, though, that allomantic cadmium may not too dangerous anyway.

cadmium is most dangerous when small dust is inhaled. this is a major industrial hazard, if you are doing cadmium metalworking you will have cadmium dust all around, but it does not apply to eating the dust. then there are many cadmium compounds that are highly toxic, but the thing is, if it does not dissolve in some way, the body will not absorb it, it will be excreted, and it will not be toxic. toxicity requires that the substance actually enters your body, not that it passes through your guts without being absorbed.

now, cadmium is not oxidized too easily, but i'm not sure how it would withstand the stomach. a quick search did not find conclusive data, if the stomach can oxidize cadmium, then yes, eating cadmium dust would get cadmium inside your blood and that would be bad.

as for a metalmind, again, there is the whole absorption thing; as long as the metalmind stays solid metal, it should not be dangerous.

Still, i would not want to have regular exposure to cadmium without some form of protection

The paint is actually pretty safe as long as you aren’t doing anything too foolish.

[LuckyJim]

On 6/20/2021 at 1:53 PM, ScadrianTank said:

Thanks, haven't seen that one. I wonder if he changed his mind on the matter because Kel said this in the Final Empire:

 

Maybe they have a tolerance to the poisoning, but if they hold on to it for too long, their body starts to react badly to it. I wouldn't think about it too hard though, this seems to be a handwavey "works the way the story needs it to" kind of deal.