For the choice of honor is life

[+Oltux72 he/him]

I am putting this here as what I will say is not strictly a spoiler but sensible answers will almost certainly be.

This death rattle was almost directly aimed at Taravangian. So I think the most straight interpretation is that it means him. To be blunt I think those child champion theories are silly. So I will take this directly:

1. The one making the choice is Taravangian
2. He chooses life
3. It causes a catastrophe

In other words his decision to save Kharbranth sacrificing the rest of Roshar is honorable. His oldest and foremost duty is as a king to his original people, that is Kharbranth. He is keeping them safe. Hence his choice is honorable. And the premonition has already been mostly realized.

[Use the Falchion]

I'm a fan of the Child Champion theories, but that's a discussion that can be saved for another thread. In terms of this death rattle, I have to completely disagree with you. I think this a reference to the Night of Sorrows, which will be an outcome of whatever happens in Book 5. (Which is related to my overarching theory of how the Contest of Champions will play out.) 

The entire quote is:

Quote

So the night will reign, for the choice of honor is life.

To me, this reads as "because we make the right/honorable choice, we are going to lose this battle," instead of your interpretation. It then goes hand-in-hand with the "child champion" death rattle of 

Quote

I hold the suckling child in my hands, a knife at his throat, and know that all who live wish me to let the blade slip. Spill its blood upon the ground, over my hands, and with it gain us further breath to draw. 

 

Combined, the death rattles paint a picture of a terrible choice (kill a child and let everyone live), a Radiant's decision (do the honorable thing and let the child live), and the outcome (the night will reign). 

Combine that with the fact that Honor's warning of the True Desolation, the Everstorm, and the Night of Sorrows, I don't think we're out of the woods yet. The True Desolation and the Everstorm were two separate things, but we haven't seen the Night of Sorrows yet. That is also what this death rattle is warning us about. 

[Waffles]

The consistent thing with death rattles is (especially ones written with "I") they are the spoken or internal thoughts of a person at some point in time.

The only characters that might talk with that voice that we've seen are possibly heralds. Dalinar doesnt talk like that, Taravangian might but he would have no problem slitting a throat. The only characters that come to mind that might speak like that are heralds. Cultivation or some character we havent fully met yet might be thinking this. 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

To me, this reads as "because we make the right/honorable choice, we are going to lose this battle," instead of your interpretation. It then goes hand-in-hand with the "child champion" death rattle of 

Why? What makes that connection any more plausible than any other? Mind you, I am not saying that it is implausible. I am merrily saying that there are many plausible interpretations and this one looks like it derives interpretations from an outcome derived from a theory about the loop hole, not a death rattle.

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Combined, the death rattles paint a picture of a terrible choice (kill a child and let everyone live), a Radiant's decision (do the honorable thing and let the child live), and the outcome (the night will reign). 

The problem here is that Knights Radiant like Jasnah would flat out argue that Honor is foremost keeping your word and doing your duty. Hence if your duty means to kill a child, you do it.

3 hours ago, Use the Falchion said:

Combine that with the fact that Honor's warning of the True Desolation, the Everstorm, and the Night of Sorrows, I don't think we're out of the woods yet. The True Desolation and the Everstorm were two separate things, but we haven't seen the Night of Sorrows yet. That is also what this death rattle is warning us about. 

Yes, as far as True Desolation and Everstorm being distinct, but what requires the "choice of honor" death rattle to be connected here?

[Use the Falchion]

24 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

The problem here is that Knights Radiant like Jasnah would flat out argue that Honor is foremost keeping your word and doing your duty. Hence if your duty means to kill a child, you do it.

Knights Radiant like Dalinar, Navani, Lift, and Kaladin would argue against her. Besides, Jasnah is brilliant but she's far from perfect.

 

27 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

this one looks like it derives interpretations from an outcome derived from a theory about the loop hole, not a death rattle.

Trust me, the loop hole theories came out LONG after I had thought up this one. The fact that they work together to me simply means there's something to be seen there. 

 

28 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Why? What makes that connection any more plausible than any other?

Nothing, but isn't that why we theorize in the first place? We see what we think amounts to evidence in what's happening, take stock at what happens, and then theorize about will happen. I choose to believe my theory because at this moment, it makes the most logical, thematic, and meta sense. I can pick out pieces and see where it's leading to, because it paints a picture. Yours simply doesn't to me.

 

Another problem I see with your interpretation is that it doesn't fit the syntax of the death rattle. 

If I'm interpreting you correctly, you are saying that Taravangian's choice is life, and that he did the honorable thing in the face of darkness. But if that was the case, wouldn't the syntax of the death rattle itself be "for the night will reign, so the choice of honor is life" instead of what it is? The death rattle reads like an "if, then" clause. "if the choice of honor is life, then night will reign." Your theory, from what I understand, goes with the reverse. 

 

Which reminds me of another point: 

8 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

His oldest and foremost duty is as a king to his original people, that is Kharbranth. He is keeping them safe. Hence his choice is honorable.

Except for the fact that he lied, cheated, and was directly responsible for the massacre of unknown amounts of his own people (the hospitals were under Kharbranth) and others in order to do this. Very few Orders would call this honorable by any stretch of the meaning. Duty and honor are two separate things. Taravangian did his duty well, but it was achieved in a far from honorable fashion. 

[Bejarden he/him]

17 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

I am putting this here as what I will say is not strictly a spoiler but sensible answers will almost certainly be.

This death rattle was almost directly aimed at Taravangian. So I think the most straight interpretation is that it means him. To be blunt I think those child champion theories are silly. So I will take this directly:

1. The one making the choice is Taravangian
2. He chooses life
3. It causes a catastrophe

In other words his decision to save Kharbranth sacrificing the rest of Roshar is honorable. His oldest and foremost duty is as a king to his original people, that is Kharbranth. He is keeping them safe. Hence his choice is honorable. And the premonition has already been mostly realized.

This makes sense even if I personally don’t believe that this is what the Death Rattle means

Taravangian as king of Kharbranth is honor bound to put his kingdom before all others 

He does, Then Odium happens

It doesn’t really go well with the Death Rattle since it says “The choice of honor is life…” which implies someone who is highly honorable is doing this, not someone who is making an honorable decision at the time

I wouldn’t say that Taravangian at his core Is honorable, he will lie, kill, and destroy to get what he wants, while this might be for an honorable reason, doing so isn’t honorable 

Edited June 20, 2021 by Bejardin1250

[LuckyJim]

You know, seeing the child champion theory and Taravangian's Kharbranth deal brought up together, it's made me think of something.

I think choosing not to fight Odium's champion, regardless of the circumstances, is insanely selfish. If Odium's champion is Gavinor and Dalinar concedes defeat, then he'd be allowing Odium to run free for the sake of protecting his family. It's kinda similar to Taravangian allying with Odium in exchange for keeping Kharbranth safe, except worse because he's saving even fewer people.

Yes, killing your nephew is horrible, but as a Radiant and the Stormfather's Bondsmith Dalinar has greater responsibilities than those to his family.

[Bejarden he/him]

9 minutes ago, LuckyJim said:

You know, seeing the child champion theory and Taravangian's Kharbranth deal brought up together, it's made me think of something.

I think choosing not to fight Odium's champion, regardless of the circumstances, is insanely selfish. If Odium's champion is Gavinor and Dalinar concedes defeat, then he'd be allowing Odium to run free for the sake of protecting his family. It's kinda similar to Taravangian allying with Odium in exchange for keeping Kharbranth safe, except worse because he's saving even fewer people.

Yes, killing your nephew is horrible, but as a Radiant and the Stormfather's Bondsmith Dalinar has greater responsibilities than those to his family.

I have addressed this problem here: 

 

[Musica she/her]

On 6/20/2021 at 6:23 AM, LuckyJim said:

You know, seeing the child champion theory and Taravangian's Kharbranth deal brought up together, it's made me think of something.

I think choosing not to fight Odium's champion, regardless of the circumstances, is insanely selfish. If Odium's champion is Gavinor and Dalinar concedes defeat, then he'd be allowing Odium to run free for the sake of protecting his family. It's kinda similar to Taravangian allying with Odium in exchange for keeping Kharbranth safe, except worse because he's saving even fewer people.

Yes, killing your nephew is horrible, but as a Radiant and the Stormfather's Bondsmith Dalinar has greater responsibilities than those to his family.

I think you are forgetting a key part of the deal- they each must choose a WILLING champion to represent them. Now, you can argue that Odium might try to trick/influence Gav into being hos champion, but that would be a gray area for the "willing/consenting" part of the deal, and as Dalinar noted himself, he doesn't believe Odium would intentionally renegade in the deal or try to cheat his way to victory. He's as bound as Dalinar by their agreement, and intentionally misinterpreting something like that might hurt him same as refusing to abide by the rules. Plus, he has enough candidates that it would be foolish to do so

[Krafl]

On 20/6/2021 at 5:23 AM, LuckyJim said:

Yes, killing your nephew is horrible, but as a Radiant and the Stormfather's Bondsmith Dalinar has greater responsibilities than those to his family.

I disagree, being a Radiant means acting with honor, as you perceive it.

I cannot imagine Dalinar sacrificing any innocent live to achieve his goals, and this was pointed every time this very moral dilemma was discussed between Dalinar and Taravangiam (see the discussion about the story of the four hogmans from Nohadon paraboles).

 

[+Oltux72 he/him]

18 minutes ago, Krafl said:

I disagree, being a Radiant means acting with honor, as you perceive it.

I cannot imagine Dalinar sacrificing any innocent live to achieve his goals, and this was pointed every time this very moral dilemma was discussed between Dalinar and Taravangiam (see the discussion about the story of the four hogmans from Nohadon paraboles).

 

An Alethi taking up arms for Odium to get Alethkar is a traitor. He wouldn't be innocent.

[Krafl]

Just now, Oltux72 said:

An Alethi taking up arms for Odium to get Alethkar is a traitor. He wouldn't be innocent.

Yes Gavinor would be formally a traitor, but my point is that what matters is Dalinar perception: could he really think of Gavinor as an enemy and not an innocent? Could Dalinar really believe that killing a child is an honorable mean to his goal?

I personally don't believe Dalinar could justify to himself Gavinor sacrifice, but it's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

P.S. I also believe that facing Gavinor as Odium champion, Dalinar would simply surrender and lose the contest. Even if he is loosing himself and Alethkar, at least he is achieving and buying time for the Radiants, also hoping that Kaladin and Ishar could do something to limit Odium influence.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

47 minutes ago, Krafl said:

Yes Gavinor would be formally a traitor, but my point is that what matters is Dalinar perception: could he really think of Gavinor as an enemy and not an innocent?

This is fundamentally mudled thinking. Your enemy is your enemy. Any Singer fighting for his side is innocent (at first glance. Obviously he or she could be guilty for unrelated reasons). An Alethi fighting for Honor is guilty.

47 minutes ago, Krafl said:

Could Dalinar really believe that killing a child is an honorable mean to his goal?

What do you think happens while his forces besiege a city?

47 minutes ago, Krafl said:

I personally don't believe Dalinar could justify to himself Gavinor sacrifice, but it's just my opinion and I could be wrong.

He may very well be unable to kill Gavinor, but that would be because he is hs grandchild. He would put his personal obligations above his duty. Dishonor.

 

[Use the Falchion]

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

An Alethi taking up arms for Odium to get Alethkar is a traitor. He wouldn't be innocent.

I'm not sure that makes sense, especially in the case of Gavinor. And a traitor to whom? Dalinar isn't really an Alethi nobleman anymore. He's not an Alethi Highprince, as that title went to Adolin; nor is he in line for the throne, since he gave that up to be Highking of Urithiru. Basically, Dalinar doesn't have dual citizenship, so him thinking of Gavinor as a traitor (if that's how you're interpreting it) doesn't make sense. Heck, a more pragmatic character like Jasnah may even approve of the decision, since Gavinor would get the throne regardless of who wins. (And yes, she'd clearly want Honor to win and would probably kill a child not related to her own family to ensure that, but having someone you can influence and use to ensure a more liberal, shall we say, future is far from the worse outcome.) 

In terms of innocence...I think there's leeway there. Look at it like the girl that Adolin gave the sword to. She wasn't innocent, but she also had a reason behind her actions. Both should be taken into account. If Gavinor becomes Odium's Champion in order to - in his mind and reasoning at the moment (i.e. win back his kingdom and save his people), that should be taken into account as much as becoming the Champion is. Besides, innocence and victimhood aren't mutually exclusive - Gavinor can be a victim, and in being so, have that take away his innocence. (Not unlike the phenomena where kids with rough childhoods become bullies. And Gavinor has had quite the childhood so far...) To judge the action without the intent is like looking at spoilers for a movie. A man may be killed, but if it being a result of self-defense is ultimately a different story than it being one of vengeance. That doesn't mean there aren't consequences for either (or shouldn't be), but it doesn't mean they should be punished as harsh as possible either. 

 

2 hours ago, Krafl said:

P.S. I also believe that facing Gavinor as Odium champion, Dalinar would simply surrender and lose the contest. Even if he is loosing himself and Alethkar, at least he is achieving and buying time for the Radiants, also hoping that Kaladin and Ishar could do something to limit Odium influence.

I disagree with this. I think that would be Dalinar's first instinct, but I think he'd pull through and ultimately swear an Ideal. Definitely not the exact words, but maybe something along the lines of "I will unify others, even if I must sacrifice my life" or "I will use my death to bring people together, as I did in life." Swear an Oath, switch some Connection, and bam - you've got a new outcome. 

 

4 hours ago, Musica said:

I think you are forgetting a key part of the deal- they each must choose a WILLING champion to represent them. Now, you can argue that Odium might try to trick/influence Gav into being hos champion, but that would be a gray area for the "willing/consenting" part of the deal, and as Dalinar noted himself, he doesn't believe Odium would intentionally renegade in the deal or try to cheat his way to victory.

You may be forgetting that Dalinar bargained with Rayse. Taravangian is far more willing to let such things slide in order to achieve the results he wants. Although Rayse had his moments, like forcing Dalinar to relive all the pain and horror he enacted upon the world as The Blackthorn in order to convince the Bondsmith to refuse responsibility and give into Odium. Or when he manipulated Kaladin's Connection to Moash in order to send nightmares and terrible visions Kaladin's way, as a plan to corrupt the Windrunner. What makes you think that Taravangian won't do those sorts of things? That he won't play Good Cop and Bad Cop in order to convince Gavinor to become his Champion?

[LuckyJim]

10 hours ago, Krafl said:

I disagree, being a Radiant means acting with honor, as you perceive it.

I cannot imagine Dalinar sacrificing any innocent live to achieve his goals, and this was pointed every time this very moral dilemma was discussed between Dalinar and Taravangiam (see the discussion about the story of the four hogmans from Nohadon paraboles).

 

A lot of the singers they're fighting just want to be free after spending countless generations as mindless slaves. They aren't monsters, and you could argue they're rather innocent as well, but they serve Odium and are supporting his war so there's really no choice but to fight and potentially kill them. This is the same for anyone who willingly chooses to serve Odium.