Vax is the beyond

[AceBassMan]

Wow that is a fantastic WoB! So the Cognitive Realm can branch into or work in tandem with the Spiritual Realm to make it more sensical. I wonder if the perpendicularities could be doorways not just between the PR and CR, but the SR as well. Like when Hoid pops out of the Well of Ascension. Travelling through the SR perhaps? Or when he goes into the small pool in the added scene in Elantris, and disappears.

[Weltall]

9 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

I wonder if the perpendicularities could be doorways not just between the PR and CR, but the SR as well.

Khriss literally says as much when describing how Perpendicularities work in Arcanum Unbounded; they bridge all three Realms. For one example of a relevant WoB, here's Brandon saying you could use a Perpendicularity to peek into the Spiritual Realm.

Quote

Like when Hoid pops out of the Well of Ascension. Travelling through the SR perhaps? Or when he goes into the small pool in the added scene in Elantris, and disappears.

Seeing how Kelsier sees (and gets beaten up by) Hoid in Scadrial's Cognitive Realm before they emerge into the Physical Realm, the former would be a 'No' and since we know that people transiting through Devotion's Perpendicularity end up in Sel's Cognitive, the latter would also be a 'No'. All known instances of Perpendicularity travel involve transitioning from the Physical to the Cognitive or vice versa, taking advantage of the way empty space is compressed in the latter to literally walk between worlds.

Now, it's possible that some method of using Perpendicularities to travel via the Spiritual Realm exists (we know Spiritual travel is possible) but given the way that time and space don't mean the same thing in the Spiritual, I suspect that you really don't want to try going there in the flesh. Kelsier almost broke his mind just looking into the place so interacting with the Spiritual without some kind of magic carefully controlling the process (like Aon Tia or an Oathgate for travel) would probably do even worse.. and there's a pretty good chance of a result like 'every atom in your body taking a separate vacation at a different point in the space-time continuum'.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Weltall

[AceBassMan]

Fantastic explanation, thanks! I very much think it would be a bad idea to attempt to peek into, let alone travel into/through the Spiritual Realm without MASSIVE investiture to keep yourself together, maybe even a stockpile of identity. It still bothers me wondering where drifter Hoid came from before popping out of the Well of Ascension. And I still wonder if a person's spirit will do anything meaningful in the Spiritual Realm before going Beyond.

[Draginon he/him]

I kind of wonder if Vax is a planet that only exists in the cognitive realm. We don’t know what happens to the cognitive realm version of a physical realm planet dies so what if this is a planet that was destroyed in the physical realm but still exists in the cognitive realm. It would make sense why Ati thought he might be in Vax as soon as he arrived in the cognitive realm in SH.

[miqius he/him]

I have a theory (All-Mistborn spoilers) that kind of links the two references we have on Vax (one, having Khriss compare it to another planet, suggests it's most likely a planet, and the other is Ati confusing something/someone with it --a WoB confirms Leras would've recognized it/them too).

Since Scadrial was made literally from the ground up by Ati and Leras, what I wonder is to what extent were they responsible of the form Scadrial's Cognitive Realm has. Because if they also made it all up maybe they used some sort of reference, just as how I suspect they drew from Yolen to create the physical part. I don't know if we have WoBs about this, but Khriss mentions that Scadrial is size 1 Cosmere Standard (I think the CS takes Yolen as a reference) and it has 'normal'/Yolen-like oxygen levels and humans to inhabit it (unlike Roshar).

And the reference they took for the Cognitive Realm was Vax's.

So Ati, in his delusional pre-death state, might had 'forgotten' everything post-Shattering and finding himself in Scadrial's cognitive he confused it with Vax's and wondered what he was doing there. This would put Vax sort of at the level of Yolen in terms of pre-Shattering existence, and maybe the would-be vessels worldhopped there to have a picnic from time to time heh.

But I don't know how much a Shard can shape the Cognitive Realm, even if they create the planet from nothing. Because I think Brandon explains its creation as an expansion of 'cognitive space' created by the existence of sapience/sentience in a certain place (sort of bubbles popping up as a consequence of that existence or something of the like). So my theory depends on that. But since we see great differences between Shadesmar and Scadrial's Cognitive Realm, I think it's safe to assume Shards can shape it somehow (especially if they created the whole magic system too, instead of just investing in a preexisting planet like what we see on Roshar).

Thoughts?

Edited June 2, 2021 by Miqius

[Stormblessed0421 he/him]

Arcanum unbounded (threnody) says that odium and ambition clashed mostly in the SR though right? So I’d think it’s mostly spiritual interaction with physical and cognitive impacts like what’s on threnody

 

edit* oops sorry responding to an earlier post

Edited May 30, 2021 by Stormblessed0421

[AceBassMan]

On 5/28/2021 at 2:43 PM, Draginon said:

I kind of wonder if Vax is a planet that only exists in the cognitive realm. We don’t know what happens to the cognitive realm version of a physical realm planet dies so what if this is a planet that was destroyed in the physical realm but still exists in the cognitive realm. It would make sense why Ati thought he might be in Vax as soon as he arrived in the cognitive realm in SH.

I wonder what does happen to a planet's cognitive realm if the planet is destroyed. Does it continue to exist without the sentiences that we believe make it in the first place? Unless they all became cognitive shadows along with it, due to the whole planet being highly invested when destroyed? Perhaps Vax is Yolen's cognitive realm, as Shadesmar is to Roshar.

On 5/28/2021 at 5:29 PM, Miqius said:

I have a theory (All-Mistborn spoilers) that kind of links the two references we have on Vax (one, having Khriss compare it to another planet, suggests it's most likely a planet, and the other is Ati confusing something/someone with it --a WoB confirms Leras would've recognized it/them too).

Since Scadrial was made literally from the ground up by Ati and Leras, what I wonder is to what extent were they responsible of the form Scadrial's Cognitive Realm has. Because if they also made it all up maybe they used some sort of reference, just as how I suspect they drew from Yolen to create the physical part. I don't know if we have WoBs about this, but Khriss mentions that Scadrial is size 1 Cosmere Standard (I think the CS takes Yolen as a reference) and it has 'normal'/Yolen-like oxygen levels and humans to inhabit it (unlike Roshar).

And the reference they took for the Cognitive Realm was Vax's.

So Ati, in his delusional pre-death state, might had 'forgotten' everything post-Shattering and finding himself in Scadrial's cognitive he confused it with Vax's and wondered what he was doing there. This would put Vax sort of at the level of Yolen in terms of pre-Shattering existence, and maybe the would-be vessels worldhopped there to have a picnic from time to time heh.

But I don't know how much a Shard can shape the Cognitive Realm, even if they create the planet from nothing. Because I think Brandon explains its creation as an expansion of 'cognitive space' created by the existence of sapience/sentience in a certain place (sort of bubbles popping up as a consequence of that existence or something of the like). So my theory depends on that. But since we see great differences between Shadesmar and Scadrial's Cognitive Realm, I think it's safe to assume Shards can shape it somehow (especially if they created the whole magic system too, instead of just investing in a preexisting planet like what we see on Roshar).

Thoughts?

This is completely possible, them trying to recreate Yolen.

On 5/30/2021 at 7:29 PM, Stormblessed0421 said:

Arcanum unbounded (threnody) says that odium and ambition clashed mostly in the SR though right? So I’d think it’s mostly spiritual interaction with physical and cognitive impacts like what’s on threnody

 

edit* oops sorry responding to an earlier post

This makes a lot of sense, they exist predominantly in the spiritual realm and manifest as they choose in the Physical Realm, and I think they are seen as they actually are in the cognitive realm.

[Weltall]

2 hours ago, AceBassMan said:

I wonder what does happen to a planet's cognitive realm if the planet is destroyed. Does it continue to exist without the sentiences that we believe make it in the first place?

In this WoB Brandon tells us that a planet completely scoured of life will eventually vanish from the Cognitive Realm even if the corresponding Physical planet is still there, though by implication if people elsewhere were aware the planet existed there might be a tiny region left representing it. If the planet were destroyed completely, it's corresponding space would eventually vanish entirely from the Cognitive Realm since there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to think about.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Weltall

[AceBassMan]

12 hours ago, Weltall said:

In this WoB Brandon tells us that a planet completely scoured of life will eventually vanish from the Cognitive Realm even if the corresponding Physical planet is still there, though by implication if people elsewhere were aware the planet existed there might be a tiny region left representing it. If the planet were destroyed completely, it's corresponding space would eventually vanish entirely from the Cognitive Realm since there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to think about.

Completely with you. I'm just wondering if the thoughts of cognitive shadows in the Cognitive Realm would count.

[Draginon he/him]

On 6/3/2021 at 7:51 PM, Weltall said:

In this WoB Brandon tells us that a planet completely scoured of life will eventually vanish from the Cognitive Realm even if the corresponding Physical planet is still there, though by implication if people elsewhere were aware the planet existed there might be a tiny region left representing it. If the planet were destroyed completely, it's corresponding space would eventually vanish entirely from the Cognitive Realm since there wouldn't be anything left for anyone to think about.

Or if it was advanced enough to have pictures and film there would be something for people to remember. It would be like if Scadrial was destroyed after Era 3, since it’s supposed to be 1980’s level technology, would seeing any movies allow it to still be seen in the CR or would it still vanish since it’s an image of the past?

It’s easy to figure out in regards to the planets as we currently see them in their respective stories, since they’re all pre-technology/photo era but when it comes to the time after that is where it gets murky since there are accurate depictions of these places at this point instead of embellished portraits and art.

Using Earth as an example if New York were destroyed enough that it all became a bay and no way to rebuild would it disappear from our CR despite how many films it’s in that would preserve it.

[Weltall]

On 6/5/2021 at 3:27 PM, Draginon said:

Or if it was advanced enough to have pictures and film there would be something for people to remember. It would be like if Scadrial was destroyed after Era 3, since it’s supposed to be 1980’s level technology, would seeing any movies allow it to still be seen in the CR or would it still vanish since it’s an image of the past?

I have a suspicion (but can't prove it) that you'd get a situation analogous to the example Brandon gives in the WoB about a moon's Cognitive reflection when people know about it but haven't actually visited it. Scadrial (or New York in your other hypothetical) would probably have some small and funky patch in the CR because people remember that there used to be something there, but it wouldn't be the kind of full representation you'd get from a region that's inhabited by thinking beings.

[Draginon he/him]

43 minutes ago, Weltall said:

I have a suspicion (but can't prove it) that you'd get a situation analogous to the example Brandon gives in the WoB about a moon's Cognitive reflection when people know about it but haven't actually visited it. Scadrial (or New York in your other hypothetical) would probably have some small and funky patch in the CR because people remember that there used to be something there, but it wouldn't be the kind of full representation you'd get from a region that's inhabited by thinking beings.

Here’s an interesting hypothetical: imagine if there was a planet where the investiture manifests by losing a sense and one island was all blind. They obviously know the island is there but can’t actually observe it. Wonder how weird the CR version will appear if no other people on that planet visit that island.

[AceBassMan]

21 hours ago, Draginon said:

Here’s an interesting hypothetical: imagine if there was a planet where the investiture manifests by losing a sense and one island was all blind. They obviously know the island is there but can’t actually observe it. Wonder how weird the CR version will appear if no other people on that planet visit that island.

Ha! Wow, yeah it would be pitch black or something in their Cognitive Realm.

[Zoey she/her]

On 5/21/2021 at 1:20 PM, AceBassMan said:

Very good points about Brandon's refusal to nail down the Beyond, I wasn't aware of that stance of his. But now this is working to separate The Beyond and the Spiritual Realm in my mind, which I had thought were one and the same. I'm theorizing now that Vax could be a location in the Spiritual Realm, which the Shards ASSUREDLY have access to.

It just isn't a place in the Spiritual Realm. The Spiritual Realm is not a place, and has all Space compounded into one. Also, Khriss knows about Vax and is seemingly deeply knowledgeable about it. But she also is curious about and admits to not fully understanding the Spiritual Realm, it is part of why Hemalurgy interests her so much. 

But yeah, we don't know about Vax, but I highly doubt it is part of the Spiritual Realm. 

[AceBassMan]

3 hours ago, Zoey said:

It just isn't a place in the Spiritual Realm. The Spiritual Realm is not a place, and has all Space compounded into one. Also, Khriss knows about Vax and is seemingly deeply knowledgeable about it. But she also is curious about and admits to not fully understanding the Spiritual Realm, it is part of why Hemalurgy interests her so much. 

But yeah, we don't know about Vax, but I highly doubt it is part of the Spiritual Realm. 

Have you read Rhythm of War?

Spoiler

Taravangian as Odium comes into his own as a shard, stretches into his power, and then notices Cultivation nearby. They dont seem to occupy the same exact space in the spiritual realm, like they dont just see Harmony or any of the others sitting nearby. And as far as Khriss knowing about Vax, I wonder if she has ever been in contact with any shard or shards.  As the premiere cosmere scholar, I would imagine she has. 

 

[GoWibble he/him]

On 5/21/2021 at 2:20 PM, AceBassMan said:

I'm theorizing now that Vax could be a location in the Spiritual Realm, which the Shards ASSUREDLY have access to.

All locations in the Spiritual realm are one and the same. It is heavily implied that Vax is a distinct place that we know has a distinct magic system with a strange form of Initiation to the magic system. 

[AceBassMan]

1 hour ago, GoWibble said:

All locations in the Spiritual realm are one and the same. It is heavily implied that Vax is a distinct place that we know has a distinct magic system with a strange form of Initiation to the magic system. 

Can Harmony see and touch Endowment from where he is?

[Honorless he/him]

A few relevant WoBs on the Spiritual Realm

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Questioner

In Shadesmar, the solid and liquid phases are inverted. So, in the Spiritual Realm, is it something to do with solid and gas phases, or is it not the same at all?

Brandon Sanderson

It is not quite where you're going, but I like the way you're thinking.

Questioner

So then what's the reason that they can't travel to the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The Spiritual Realm is not a place.

Skyward San Francisco signing (Nov. 8, 2018)

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Argent

Can somebody travel to the Spiritual Realm, the same as the Cognitive?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, but it's a very different experience. It is possible… You may have seen people do it...

Argent

As in you're not sure, or you're being obnoxiously vague?

Brandon Sanderson

No...

Questioner #1

As in, you probably have but he's having trouble remembering it.

Brandon Sanderson

No no no... For instance, Elend burning atium and duralumin pulled most of him into the Spiritual Realm.

Argent

Oh, that's what happens there.

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. He kind of got yanked into- You also have seen people Ascend with the powers and dip into the Spiritual Realm for a little bit.

Argent

So, Vin?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah. But they could be on both, or either, or both at the same time. But you have seen Vin stick into the Spiritual Realm. And it happened to Sazed/Harmony...

Questioner #2

Oh! So is that where the gods live? Kinda?

Brandon Sanderson

Most of the bulk of the Shard's energy of being is contained in the Spiritual Realm, yes. Except for one notable exception!

Questioner #2

The <mists? mistwraith?>?

Brandon Sanderson

No.

Footnote: We now know that the "one notable exception" Brandon refers to at the end is the Dor, which is mostly contained in the Cognitive Realm.
Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

Quote

Nepene

You've mentioned several philosophical concepts used in the writing of your books, like Jung's collective unconsciousness, Plato's cave. Could you expand a bit on your use of those in your books, and whether you think it is necessary to use philosophy to make a good fantasy world?

Brandon Sanderson

I don't think it's necessary at all. The writer's own fascinations--whatever they are--can add to the writing experience. But yes, some philosophical ideas worked into my fiction. Plato's theory of the forms has always fascinated, and so the idea of a physical/cognitive/spiritual realm is certainly a product of this. Human perception of ideals has a lot to do with the cognitive realm, and a true ideal has a lot to do with the spiritual realm.

As for more examples, they're spread through my fiction. Spinoza is in there a lot, and Jung has a lot to do with the idea of spiritual connectivity (and how the Parshendi can all sing the same songs.)

Nepene

Not completely sure where Spinoaza comes in. I guess the shards are part of the natural world and have no personality without a human wielder.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes on Spinoza there, and also the idea of God being in everything, and everything of one substance. Unifying laws. Those sorts of things. (Less his determinism, though.)

/r/fantasy AMA 2013 (April 15, 2013)

Quote

Questioner

Well you answered my question about Allomancers being able to burn metals in other realms. Is that because the Shards are sort of…  My impression from the book was that the Shards were, in the Mistborn books, specifically in that area but is it because the universe is formed across all of them that that is why the metals...

Brandon Sanderson

So, most of the magics are not region-dependent, because the Spiritual Realm-- in the Spiritual Realm space doesn’t exist.  All things are the same distance from one another.

Questioner

Okay, so when Kelsier is in the-- Which Realm is he in?

Brandon Sanderson

He’s in the Cognitive Realm.

Questioner

Is he seeing people from other worlds or is he--

Brandon Sanderson

No, he meets some people who are traveling but Cognitive Realm is location dependent.  He is on the Cognitive Realm on Scadrial and the people he runs into there-- until he kind of travels off into space, which is where he finds the fortress.

Questioner

So even though he’s tied to Scadrial could he go to the Cognitive Realm of other worlds?

Brandon Sanderson

He would have trouble getting to another planet, being a Cognitive shadow like he was.

Questioner

So is there some particular thing that somebody would need to have to be able to move between the realms?

Brandon Sanderson

A body is helpful. Depends on what their ties are and things like that.  Not always, but yeah.

Calamity Seattle signing (Feb. 17, 2016)

While most of the power of a Shard is in the Spiritual Realm, the Vessel or the mind that holds it is still mortal and can't access all of it at once. That's why Shards are localized. Here's a rather long WoB where Brandon goes into the concept:

Quote

ReadAndFindOut

In 2014, Brandon said First of the Sun - the planet in Sixth of the Dusk - is a minor Shardworld, in that it does not have a Shard present (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/103-salt-lake-city-comic-con-2014/#e1010). However, we've now gotten a WoB saying that Patji - the Father island - IS a Shard (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256-oathbringer-london-signing/#e8606). Patji was a Shard, but isn't during SotD? Or did we finally get confirmation on that elusive "Survival Shard"? What do you guys think?

Brandon Sanderson

I stand by them. Though, as always, quotes and WoBs at signings aren't always as deliberately thought out as I'd like them to be. Answering questions on the fly can be challenging, and my phrasing can be bad in retrospect.

But no Shard was in residence on First of the Sun during the events of that story. The Investiture on that planet is residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium. Everything happening there could happen with or without a Shard present. Indeed, I would say that no Shard was ever "in residence" on First of the Sun.

The being called Patji still exists, and is a Shard of Adonalsium. Shards in the past have been interested in First of the Sun, and have meddled in small ways there. (Like they have on a lot of Shardworlds.)

Note that I might have been a little misleading in the first quote by bringing up Threnody, which is a real corner case in the cosmere because of uncommon events there.

That said, I'm sure that every story I write about a planet will bring up the quirks and unusual interactions of the magic there, because that's kind of what I do. (First of the Sun has its own oddities, as mentioned in Arcanum Unbounded.) Every planet is likely to end up as a corner case in some way, just like every person is distinctive in their own way, and never fully fits expectations.

I still consider one of the major dividing lines between "major" and "minor" Shardworlds (other than Shard residence) to be in strength of access to the magic, and control over it. I intend the minor Shardworlds to involve interactions with the magic as setting--coming back to spren, you could have a minor Shardworld with people who use, befriend, even bond spren. (Or the local equivalent--Seon, Aviar, etc.) But you'd never see power on the level of the city of Elantris, the actions of a Bondsmith, or even the broad power suite of a Mistborn.

But, as ever, the cosmere is a work in progress. The needs of telling a great story trump things I've said about what I'm planning. (I do try as much as I can to avoid having two texts contradict one another. And when they do, that's often a lapse on my part.)

Oversleep

Wait.

I'm confused.

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?

Cause the question was a follow up (on this) where you revealed that all Investiture in Cosmere got assigned to a Shard even if it wasn't part of a Shard.

And then you said that the one on First of the Sun is directly associated with one of the Shards (and since later you revealed Patji to be an avatar of Autonomy (also, what are avatars and how do they work?)) we took it to mean that at one point Autonomy Invested in First of the Sun.

But now you're saying it didn't?

If there was no Shard ever on First of the Sun but Patji is a Shard/avatar of a Shard then where is Patji, actually?

Could you please clarify all that?

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture on First of the Sun is associated with a Shard or is it residue, normal Investiture from Adonalsium?"

The reason I have so much trouble answering these questions (and you'll see me struggling to get an answer in the 10-15 seconds I have when someone asks me in a signing line) is because this isn't an either or. Is this computer I'm using matter associated with Earth, the Big Bang, or such-and-such star that went supernova long ago? Well, it's probably all three.

When people ask, "What Shard is this Investiture associated with" it gets very complicated. Shards influence and tweak certain Investiture, giving it a kind of spin or magnetism, but all Investiture ever predates the Shattering--and in the cosmere matter, energy, and Investiture are one thing.

I always imagine Investiture having certain states, certain magnetisms if you will, associated with certain aspects of Adonalsium. So it's all "assigned" to a Shard--because it's always been associated with that Shard. To Investiture, Adonalsium's Shattering meant everything and nothing at the same time.

We generally mean the term "Invested" to mean a Shard has taken permanent residence in a location, a kind of base of operations--but at the same time, this is meaningless, since distance has no meaning on the Spiritual Realm, where most Shards are. So imprisonment of a Shard like Ruin or Odium is a crude expression--but the best we have.

Autonomy never "Invested" on First of the Sun. But even answering (as someone else asked) if they created an avatar without visiting is a difficult thing to explain--because even explaining how a Shard travels (when motion is irrelevant) is difficult to manage. It's a subject that I intend to be up for debate, discussion, and argument by in-world philosophers and arcanists.

You can see why I have such troubles explaining these things at signings--and why I fail when I try to, considering the time limitations and (often) fatigue limitations placed upon me. These are concepts I intend to spend entire, lengthy epic volumes explaining and exploring.

Let's say you were Autonomy, and you have--through expanding and exploring your understanding--found a gathering of Investiture that has always been there, you always knew about, but still didn't actually recognize until the moment you considered and explored it. (Because even though your power is infinite, accessing and using that infinity is beyond your reach.) Were you "Invested" there? No, no more than you're Invested on Roshar, where parts of what were Adonalsium still exist that are associated with you (in the very fabric of matter and existence.) But suddenly, you have a chance to tweak, influence, and do things that were always possible, but which you never could do because you knew, but didn't know, at the same time.

And...I'm already into WAY more than I want to be typing this out right now. If it's confusing, it's because it's practically impossible for me to explain these things in a short span of time.

I'm going to leave it here, understanding that no, I haven't fully explained your question. (I didn't even get into what avatars are, what Patji was, and what happened to Patji the being--and how that relates to Patji the island.) But hopefully this kind of starts to point the right direction, though I probably should have just left this question alone because I bet this post is going to raise more questions than it answers...

Overlord Jebus

You've confused things so much now. We thought we had a pretty good grasp of this whole Patji situation (Autonomy visited the planet at some point, got themselves all Invested and created an avatar which is called Patji by the locals).

Now you're saying no Shard has ever visited there? And that the pool would have existed if no Shard had ever interfered? But that Patji still exists and is a Shard?

Does that mean Autonomy edited First of the Sun from afar without actually going there? And that the pool would have already existed without any intervention? Does this mean it was associated with Autonomy from the beginning? I'm really confused now.

Brandon Sanderson

I don't believe I said no Shard had visited. I said no Shard was there during the events of the story.

Investiture on First of the Sun predates any Shards fiddling with it.

Shards have fiddled with it by the time of the story.

I think fandom might be going down too far a rabbit hole on this one.

Chaos

Are you saying here that Patji is an avatar of Autonomy, or is it a separate Shard and not an avatar of Autonomy?

Brandon Sanderson

When I said Patji was a Shard, I was meaning Automony--but it is not quite that simple.

Take this post to mean "no, you should not be looking toward another Shard for Patji's origins. Autonomy is the one relevant." But Autonomy's relationships with entities like this (not sure entity is the right word, even) is complex. I'm not trying to confuse the issue, though.

General Reddit 2018 (March 18, 2018)

We do have confirmation (I'm taking it as confirmation) that Vax is a place

Quote

Argent

Is Vax a planet?  It’s clearly suggested that it is.

Brandon Sanderson

What’s that?

Argent

It’s heavily suggested that it is.

Brandon Sanderson

It is heavily suggested that it is a place.

Argent

It's a place. Okay, I'll take that.

*talking to other attendees* Vax is a place.

Brandon Sanderson

No no, heavily suggested that it's a place, is what I said!

Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)

Khriss talks about Vax in the Arcanum Unbounded compares its Invested Arts with other Shardworlds', which suggests it's a Shardworld or something like it: a moon, a giant spaceship, some weird dream realm in Shadesmar, perhaps an entire planet shoved from the Physical Realm into the Cognitive, let your imagination run wild. It's technically not impossible for Vax to be partially in the Spiritual Realm kinda like the Visions perhaps, which operated from the Spiritual quite a bit sometimes

Quote

Gordon Kelsch

Can Dalinar permanently bring someone back from the Spiritual Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

No. In fact, whether or not the voices he is hearing are legitimately voices from beyond the Spiritual Realm, or if they're a manifestation much like the visions that the Stormfather creates, where Dalinar's desire for certain things is basically creating... So when Dalinar goes into the visions, what's going on there is: these are not people with autonomy that he is interacting with. These are Investiture manifesting a basic AI that is able to adapt, cause Investiture kind of can do this.

Dalinar would argue, "Yes, that's the case except for when I actually met Nohadon. That character felt different, that felt like the real Nohadon stretching through the Spiritual Realm and actually interacting." Jasnah would say, "No, that's because, Dalinar, you have such, in your mind, a hope and desire to see Nohadon, he's this mythological figure in your head, that basically the Stormfather's knowledge of who he actually was was creating this much more animated puppet that was more like actually how Nohadon was, but was based on knowledge of the spren and the Investiture that you're interacting with." And Dalinar would say, "I heard Evi's voice." Jasnah would say, "You heard the Investiture coming to life and speaking with her voice the things you needed to hear. And it wasn't that the Stormfather was like, 'He needs to hear this, I'm going to create this fake..' But it's instead your relationship with this magical force that does take on life of its own, manifesting this thing." Which one it is, I do not answer. Both are, I consider, equally valid interpretations of the text, and equally valid interpretations of the magic system.

Once someone is passed into the Beyond, there is no force that can bring them back, according to people's understanding of the magic system. There is even the argument that Cognitive Shadows are not the person. That the Cognitive Shadow is indeed a spren with the memories and an imprint of the person's personality that becomes self aware and continued on living that person. It's kind of the same question that arises in Star Trek. When you are ripped apart and rebuilt piece by piece with the transporter, some people in Star Trek do not believe you are becoming the same person again. You are then a different individual who has been cloned from the person and had the memories attached. Functionally, in the narrative, for the reader, it's the same. Is it the same soul or not? That question is answered differently by different people in the Cosmere. There are equally valid interpretations from the reader. You get to decide, basically. You get to decide, just like if there's a story where a person's brain is uploaded to a computer, you get to decide: is that the same person? Because we can't do that, we don't know. Is that the exact same individual, or is that a computer simulation of that person, where the person has died? That's what a Cognitive Shadow essentially is, but using Cosmere physics instead of theoretical science fiction physics.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

[AceBassMan]

Brandon seems adamant that we understand that Vax is only heavily suggested to be a place. 

Also Khriss' words are:

"Nothing is known of Vax, its peoples, or any Shards that may or may not be located there. All that is certain is that it has a manifestation of Investiture in which people are Initiated differently than on Sel, Scadrial, Nalthis, or Taldain."

All we know is that Vax has a manifestation of investiture that people can possibly be initiated in, but contrasted with the methods on known shardworlds, not compared.

In your WOB referencing 6th of the Dusk and shards having to focus their awareness on things to "move" there because location is irrelevant and they have infinite access but finite awareness limited to what they focus on, then "location" in the Spiritual Realm is more akin to "awareness".

[Honorless he/him]

11 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

Brandon seems adamant that we understand that Vax is only heavily suggested to be a place. 

Also Khriss' words are:

"Nothing is known of Vax, its peoples, or any Shards that may or may not be located there. All that is certain is that it has a manifestation of Investiture in which people are Initiated differently than on Sel, Scadrial, Nalthis, or Taldain."

All we know is that Vax has a manifestation of investiture that people can possibly be initiated in, but contrasted with the methods on known shardworlds, not compared.

That's the Coppermind wiki's words, not Khriss' exact words, she just mentions the string of Shardworld names and compares their methods of Initiation into their respective Invested Arts. To make the comparison, she would have to know the method of Initiation on Vax, so she's probably been to Vax, this is, admittedly, not a given because she hasn't or hadn't been to Yolen at the time of writing some of those texts, iirc.

11 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

In your WOB referencing 6th of the Dusk and shards having to focus their awareness on things to "move" there because location is irrelevant and they have infinite access but finite awareness limited to what they focus on, then "location" in the Spiritual Realm is more akin to "awareness".

Yup, that's a pretty good summation

[AceBassMan]

14 minutes ago, Honorless said:

That's the Coppermind wiki's words, not Khriss' exact words, she just mentions the string of Shardworld names and compares their methods of Initiation into their respective Invested Arts. To make the comparison, she would have to know the method of Initiation on Vax, so she's probably been to Vax, this is, admittedly, not a given because she hasn't or hadn't been to Yolen at the time of writing some of those texts, iirc.

Right I thought it looked familiar from the coppermind. I've been fanatically searching for the actual quote from the Elantris anniversary edition Ars Arcanum, but can't find it anywhere.

[Honorless he/him]

25 minutes ago, AceBassMan said:

Right I thought it looked familiar from the coppermind. I've been fanatically searching for the actual quote from the Elantris anniversary edition Ars Arcanum, but can't find it anywhere.

Here you go, here's the relevant passage where she muses over the Shaod, which turns an Arelish person into an Elantrian:

Quote

How, then, is a practitioner of AonDor Initiated? It does not appear to be tied to family descent, as one finds on Scadrial, nor is it a specific Shard's Decision, as on Nalthis. Even Taldain's and Vax's methods do not seem to apply here. I can only surmise random chance is involved, unless there is a hidden pattern I have not been able to discern.

 

[AceBassMan]

6 minutes ago, Honorless said:

How, then, is a practitioner of AonDor Initiated? It does not appear to be tied to family descent, as one finds on Scadrial, nor is it a specific Shard's Decision, as on Nalthis. Even Taldain's and Vax's methods do not seem to apply here. I can only surmise random chance is involved, unless there is a hidden pattern I have not been able to discern.

Ah, I see why everyone is fixated on Vax as a planet. Damn ambiguous sentence. At least we know Vax's initiation method isn't random, and isn't like Scadrial's or Nalthis'. It doesn't even confirm her visiting Vax.

[Draginon he/him]

Since Vax could be a place and a planet what if it’s something like Coruscant from Star Wars, a city planet, but also possibly a Dyson sphere or a hollow planet? Neither would exactly be a planet and would technically count as a place.

This is all hypothetical if Vax is in the physical realm... another possibility could be implied from Sja-Anat’s interlude in ROW where she describes her experience of being in both the physical and cognitive at once. What if Vax if a weird anomaly where it’s a planet or city where it’s stuck in both like the Unmade? In this situation it would be like in stories where rift portals connect earth with another dimension but in this case a thin spot where the physical and cognitive are pretty much the same. A natural perpendicularity with natural born worldhoppers.