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Origin of Surges, maybe


ScadrianTank

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I think my thoughts on the matter start with a question of how ashynities got Surges and a lot of things go from here. So let's set up the scene.

After the Shattering, Honor and Cultivation came to and settled the Rosharan system together. Somehow, the way they did it didn't break the agreement Endowment mentioned in her letter in Oathbringer. The system has two settled planets, the Singers on Roshar and the humans on Ashyn. Both Shards were seemingly able to affect every planet in the system. Odium arrives, whispers to Ishar to check out the Surges, and ashynites kill their planet using them. And we know from a WoB that the Surges were their local magic system. 

So why did their magic systems produce the same effects but did not produce a third magic system, as it happened on Scadrial? How are the Surges of both Cultivation and Honor, but Surgebinding is only of Honor? And, if Cultivation's magic is just Surges, but from diseases, does it still fit Khriss' characterization as "even more esoteric than the Voidbindings"?

It seems safe to assume that Cultivation and Honor kept to the agreement by staying within reach but primarily Investing on different planets - Honor on Roshar, Cultivation on Ashyn. I believe that the Surges as we know them came into existence because of more indirect interaction between Cultivation and Honor, unlike Ruin and Preservation, who had to cooperate very closely to do what they want to, kind of like a Resonance. 

This would explain Honor not restricting Surges from the start, because they were a new thing that didn't exist pre-Shattering, and Fused being Surgebinders, Odium corrupted Surges from Spren and stiched them to Cognitive shadows of singers, giving the Fused red eyes. This would mean that Voidbinding is really different from what we saw to this point.

Problems:

  1. “Odium is the void, Kaladin. He draws in emotion, and doesn’t let it go. You … you brought him with you. I wasn’t alive then, but I know this truth. He was your first god, before you turned to Honor.” Odium being the first god as opposed to Cultivation. A possible solution would be if Odium brought a group of humans to Ashyn first, and then they all jumped to Roshar.
  2. True spren being of both Honor and Cultivation, and Roshar being equally Invested by Honor and Cultivation.
  3. Singers apparently not having any kind of Surgebinding before Odium showed up.
  4. Seven thousand years after Odium showed up and Cultivation permanently moved to Roshar, we still haven't seen any hybrid magics in Rosharan system.

WoBs in text:

Spoiler
Spoiler

Lance Alvein

Did Cultivation come to Roshar with Honor, or was she already on Roshar when Honor arrived?

Brandon Sanderson

Good question. They came together.

17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012)
Spoiler

Mason Wheeler

One of the Letters in Oathbringer suggests that the Shards had a pact to all go their separate ways. And some of them held to it and some of them didn't?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Mason Wheeler

Out of all of them, how is it possible that one of the ones that didn't is the one whose nature is to obsessively keep your word at all costs?

Brandon Sanderson

He would argue that he kept his word.

Mason Wheeler

Okay, so loophole.

Brandon Sanderson

He wouldn't even call it a loophole.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)
Spoiler

Volratho

Was Roshar equally Invested by Cultivation and Honor originally?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Volratho

How 'bout now, since he's been--

Brandon Sanderson

So the Investiture is all still there... It is not all accessible. So, at this point, you might say-- I'd say it's a point of disputation. It would be worth arguing either way. I will say at this point, no, it's not equal anymore. But definitions of where the power is and what it counts as is ambiguous.

Volratho

So Cultivation has more active Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, I would say yes... Well, but she's been very coy. I'm gonna leave it at that.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)
Spoiler

ZuperzubS

Hi Brandon, just to double check my understanding of things, Odium is still mostly bound on Braize right? Just that he can influence things on Roshar because of proximity?

Brandon Sanderson

I treat Braize, Ashyn, and Roshar as if they were almost one entity for a lot of Identity/Connection related issues. It's more than proximity, though proximity leads to it. We on Earth, I feel, would consider the moon and even Mars to be "ours" so to speak, part of our family of planets. Odium's binding, and that of the heralds/fused encompasses Roshar and Ashyn. There are some subtle distinctions, but for the most part, being bound on Braize is the same as being bound on Roshar.

mraize7

so shadesmar is only from Roshar or from the three planets??

Brandon Sanderson

You can reach all three through shadesmar, with a much shorter trip than to other systems. But the map we provide so far is only Roshar.

Phantine

Have you come up with a name for their star? It'd be easier to refer to all three by calling it the [???]ar/[sol]ar system instead of the Rosharan/[earth]an system like we do now.

Brandon Sanderson

By people in world, it's being referred to as the Rosharan system. This is kind of confusing to us, because we focus on the suns to orient what makes a system. But in the cosmere, they travel directly to planets, and so the biggest trading planet becomes the source of naming conventions in most places. I agree it's a little confusing for us, but I believe it's the way it would naturally arise for them.

Uth-gnar

On the topic of the rosharan solar system, do we get to learn about the significance of the 10 gas giants? We’re they there before the shards ever made their home there? Is that the ‘origin’ of the significance, in the context of the cosmeres natural laws?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO, I'm afraid.

Rhythm of War Preview Q&As (Oct. 7, 2020)
Spoiler

Shardbound

Were the Surges used by humans, the ones that destroyed their previous home, the same as the ones that the Radiants are using.

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, same basic principles. Magic system slightly different. Same basic principles.

Oathbringer London signing (Nov. 28, 2017)

 

 

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2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

“Odium is the void, Kaladin. He draws in emotion, and doesn’t let it go. You … you brought him with you. I wasn’t alive then, but I know this truth. He was your first god, before you turned to Honor.” Odium being the first god as opposed to Cultivation. A possible solution would be if Odium brought a group of humans to Ashyn first, and then they all jumped to Roshar.

Odium cannot be first God of Humans because he arrived much later than Honor and Cultivation. Is possible he just take over Humans from Honor or Cultivation. Spren cannot know this, becuase this happend on other Planet.

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

True spren being of both Honor and Cultivation, and Roshar being equally Invested by Honor and Cultivation.

Seems to me like Honor and Cultivation indeed were primarly on Roshar, looking on Ashyn only with one Eye. But we know Honor tried to mess with Odium's plans on Ashyn.

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

Singers apparently not having any kind of Surgebinding before Odium showed up.

Eeeeeee, Stoneshaping?

2 hours ago, ScadrianTank said:

After the Shattering, Honor and Cultivation came to and settled the Rosharan system together. Somehow, the way they did it didn't break the agreement Endowment mentioned in her letter in Oathbringer.

This agreement wasnt Oath, it was just mere suggestion, and most of the Shards didnt accept it.

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Somehow, the way they did it didn't break the agreement Endowment mentioned in her letter in Oathbringer.

There is no such agreement

Quote

Nameless36

All the Shards basically agreed not to settle on the same planet. Six of them - that we know of - immediately, basically broke that.

Brandon Sanderson

So... they did not make an oath to it. There was a suggestion made... and perhaps the people who made the suggestion did not understand that, if you want the Shards to do something, you need an actual Oath. And they did not get one.

Tel Aviv Signing (Oct. 18, 2019)
Quote

So why did their magic systems produce the same effects but did not produce a third magic system, as it happened on Scadrial? How are the Surges of both Cultivation and Honor, but Surgebinding is only of Honor? And, if Cultivation's magic is just Surges, but from diseases, does it still fit Khriss' characterization as "even more esoteric than the Voidbindings"?

It's almost certain Surgebinding is the hybrid magic system between Honour and Cultivation and it's likely Voidbinding is the one between Honour and Odium and the third one is between Cultivation and Odium and the reason it's more esoteric is because there's not the organising power of Honour

Quote

It seems safe to assume that Cultivation and Honor kept to the agreement by staying within reach but primarily Investing on different planets - Honor on Roshar, Cultivation on Ashyn.

Why?

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

Odium cannot be first God of Humans because he arrived much later than Honor and Cultivation. Is possible he just take over Humans from Honor or Cultivation. Spren cannot know this, becuase this happend on other Planet.

Quote

Seems to me like Honor and Cultivation indeed were primarly on Roshar, looking on Ashyn only with one Eye. But we know Honor tried to mess with Odium's plans on Ashyn.

Aren't these argument contradictory?

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3 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Aren't these argument contradictory?

Not really. Ashyn and Roshar still arein the same System, relativly close to each other. Even if Honor and Cultivation were both on Roshar this doesnt mean none of them was God of Humanity on Ashyn.

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Just now, Bzhydack said:

Not really. Ashyn and Roshar still arein the same System, relativly close to each other. Even if Honor and Cultivation were both on Roshar this doesnt mean none of them was God of Humanity on Ashyn.

It doesn't mean they can't be gods of humanity on Ashyn, but it means Odium could be a god of humanity on Ashyn

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Just now, Bzhydack said:

But still there need to be god of Humanity BEFORE Odium arrives in Roshar System.

Not necessarily, they could have been animist or something. Anyway the Stormfather meant "first god" as in "god before Honour" so that doesn't matter

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6 minutes ago, mathiau said:

Not necessarily, they could have been animist or something. Anyway the Stormfather meant "first god" as in "god before Honour" so that doesn't matter

I understand "god" in Cosmere not nessecery as "being worshpiped", there are Worshipped Cognitive SHadows after all (Returned, Kelsier, even Shades seems to be in some extend) but more as "Protector of some Planet" - and this not nessecerly mean "Shard's own planet" - Autonomy is "protecting" few of them with Avatars.

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Just now, Bzhydack said:

I understand "god" in Cosmere not nessecery as "being worshpiped", there are Worshipped Cognitive SHadows after all (Returned, Kelsier, even Shades seems to be in some extend) but more as "Protector of some Planet" - and this not nessecerly mean "Shard's own planet" - Autonomy is "protecting" few of them with Avatars.

According to that definition there is no need for human to have a god before Odium

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4 minutes ago, mathiau said:

According to that definition there is no need for human to have a god before Odium

Side question: How did humans get to Yolen if Honor and Cultivation didn’t help them

Did they just travel through the CR until they found a planet they liked?

1 minute ago, Bzhydack said:

But also Odium dont need to be explicidly "human god". We know even he not-nessecerly was.

 

Stormfather calls him the “humans g-d” before they turned to Honor

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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

Side question: How did humans get to Yolen if Honor and Cultivation didn’t help them

Did they just travel through the CR until they found a planet they liked?

Ishar did something (I'm assuming you meant Ashyn)

Quote

Questioner

Did humans come to Roshar through Shadesmar?

Brandon Sanderson

It is technology or magic closer to how the Oathgates work. But it was like that. It's not canon but right now that's what I have. It's not canon because there are certain things I have to work out before that can work...

By the way I'll just say to the tape recording that I haven't canonized, like for instance if they traveled to Shadesmar to get to Shinovar from Ashyn. Right now I have that not being via Shadesmar, but the mechanics of that might not work out, and I might have to default to Shadesmar. So there's certain things, you'll see, where I say, "This isn't the canon answer, it's where I have things right now."

Overlord Jebus

So Urithiru might end up being a spaceship after all.

Brandon Sanderson

It's not that. Right now I have them using something closer to Oathgating, but it opens up a huge can of worms, when I'm not requiring direct-- When I'm sending through Spiritual Realm it opens up cans of worms, and I have to just make sure the mechanics on that are tight before I do it.

Emerald City Comic Con 2018 (March 1, 2018)
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Just now, Bejardin1250 said:

I actually...am not sure what I meant...

I probably was trying to say

”How did Humans get to Ashyn originally”

Could be a very strong Aon Tia depending on where they where before

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12 minutes ago, Bejardin1250 said:

Stormfather calls him the “humans g-d” before they turned to Honor

Stormfather isnt omniscient. In fact, he can have very limited knowledge about what happened on Ashyn. Odium came on Roshar at the same time as Humans, but this not nessecerly mean he came with Humans.

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Just now, Bzhydack said:

Stormfather isnt omniscient. In fact, he can have very limited knowledge about what happened on Ashyn. Odium came on Roshar at the same time as Humans, but this not nessecerly mean he came with Humans.

I never said he did 

But once they saw Odium they accepted him as their leader/g-d/overall ruler

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9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Seems to me like Honor and Cultivation indeed were primarly on Roshar, looking on Ashyn only with one Eye. But we know Honor tried to mess with Odium's plans on Ashyn.

Wouldn't that make Ashyn just an inhabited planet without a Perpendicularity?

9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

Eeeeeee, Stoneshaping?

Stoneshaping existed on Roshar before the Shattering, before Surgebinding became a thing. In that vision from RoW chapter 67, the stone showed Venli that the Dawnsingers shaped the stone in a very organic way, creating tools and cities without Soulcasting.  That doesn't read like Sugebinding to me at all.

9 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

This agreement wasnt Oath, it was just mere suggestion, and most of the Shards didnt accept it.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

There is no such agreement

And out of all the Shards, the one that embodies Honor, laws of society and nature, contracts and Oaths decided that, because the agreement wasn't formalized, he can do whatever he wants?

"Hey, Koravelium. Remember how, after we killed God and split his power, we decided that bringing it close together is not a great idea? Well, now that I am a literal embodiment of Oaths and promises, I think it can all go to hell because we haven't signed anything that wasn't a proper Oath. Very honorable of us, don't you think?" - Tanavast, talking to his wife a few days after they killed God.

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

It's almost certain Surgebinding is the hybrid magic system between Honour and Cultivation and it's likely Voidbinding is the one between Honour and Odium and the third one is between Cultivation and Odium and the reason it's more esoteric is because there's not the organising power of Honour

Then where are magic systems of only Honor and Odium? Because to me, it looks like whatever humans did on Ashyn was primarily of Cultivation. 

8 hours ago, mathiau said:

Why?

  1. I don't think that Honor would disregard the agreement to stay apart, even if Cultivation would.
  2. If Honor and Cultivation Invested primarily in Roshar from the start equally, the Highstorm should distribute Towerlight, not Stormlight, and the Vally should have formed around a Perpendicularity.
  3. If Cultivation's magic formed on Ashyn because she was more active there than Honor, the magic of only Honor would have formed on Rohar.
  4. For some reason, I have this impression from WoBs that Honor wasn't active on Ashyn before Odium arrived. But we haven't seen it in the books at all, so I may have combined and/or misremembered some things.
8 hours ago, Bejardin1250 said:

I probably was trying to say

”How did Humans get to Ashyn originally”

I think there were WoB's about humans spreading throughout the cosmere even before the Shattering, but I can't find them. We also know that there are human civilizations on planets without Perpendicularities, and they got there somehow. Or Adonalsium just put them there.

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I don't think that Honor would disregard the agreement to stay apart, even if Cultivation would.

Random speculation: what if Tanavast/Honour DID keep to that agreement and went off to Ashlyn, but Kora/Cultivation decided she wasn't going to stay away from her partner and stubbornly followed...? That way Tanavast wouldn't have broken his word or found a loophole; settling together would have been entirely Kora's doing. 

 

Even wilder speculation: Tanavast and Kora kind of get along for a while, and the surges grow from their investiture - not unnoticed, but unchecked. Kora starts to take things too far, investing and intervening directly, moulding the surges, and Tanavast disagrees with this approach. They argue and it pushes them apart. Kora's controlling streak (we know she likes to play puppet master) kicks in. She helps get Odium in-system with the aim of leveraging his emotion-linked Intent/powers to compel Honour to come back to her, in line with her thinking. That obviously doesn't work, and we end up with Odium taking the opportunity to whisper to Ishar. 

 

I'll stop here before I get too carried away with such nonsense :)

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