therunner he/him Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 So there is relatively new WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) saying that a sure and replicable way to kill/destroy Cognitive Shadow (CS for short) is to chuck some anti-investiture at them (presumably attuned to the investiture that gives the CS their life). Per in-world information we have the following examples of CS Roshar - Fused, Heralds, possibly Stormfather (he is said to be merged with Tanavast's CS) Scadrial - our dear Lord of Scars Kelsier Nalthis - Returned Threnody - Shades What is of most interest to me, is this: When physical body of Herald/Fused are destroyed they do not die, yet to kill Returned that is seemingly enough. Since anti-investiture seems to have been introduced to facilitate killing of CS (per the linked WoB), I would assume that if you destroy their physical form they are returned to Cognitive Realm, but are not killed. So why are Returned seemingly different? Is it possible that since they require constant influx of Investiture, that when Returned 'dies' in Physical they enter Cognitive but truly die only later on because they cannot get needed Investiture to maintain their life? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau he/him Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 3 hours ago, therunner said: So there is relatively new WoB (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/460/#e14623) saying that a sure and replicable way to kill/destroy Cognitive Shadow (CS for short) is to chuck some anti-investiture at them (presumably attuned to the investiture that gives the CS their life). That's not really anything new, RoW already stated it Quote Per in-world information we have the following examples of CS Roshar - Fused, Heralds, possibly Stormfather (he is said to be merged with Tanavast's CS) Scadrial - our dear Lord of Scars Kelsier Nalthis - Returned Threnody - Shades For this kind of discussion the nuance between CS and spren is not relevant Quote What is of most interest to me, is this: When physical body of Herald/Fused are destroyed they do not die, yet to kill Returned that is seemingly enough. Since anti-investiture seems to have been introduced to facilitate killing of CS (per the linked WoB), I would assume that if you destroy their physical form they are returned to Cognitive Realm, but are not killed. So why are Returned seemingly different? Is it possible that since they require constant influx of Investiture, that when Returned 'dies' in Physical they enter Cognitive but truly die only later on because they cannot get needed Investiture to maintain their life? I don't see why anti-investiture having been introduced to facilitate killing immortal CSs means more mortal CSs can't exists Returned are being artificially anchored to the PR by their Divine Breath it's probably just that when you die your Breaths don't follow to the CR 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
therunner he/him Posted May 6, 2021 Author Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 21 minutes ago, mathiau said: I don't see why anti-investiture having been introduced to facilitate killing immortal CSs means more mortal CSs can't exists True I guess, but why would Returned be more mortal than others? 22 minutes ago, mathiau said: Returned are being artificially anchored to the PR by their Divine Breath it's probably just that when you die your Breaths don't follow to the CR While regular Breaths are attached more in Physical, Divine Breaths are sufficiently inside spiritweb that they are stealable by Hemalurgy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364/#e11389), so Divine Breath would be anchored in Spiritual not in Physical, so death of body should not have effect on it. (Interestingly this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14149) says that the consumption of Investiture of Returned is to keep them alive, and if you stole that you would not need to ingest Investiture.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leuthie Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 3 hours ago, therunner said: True I guess, but why would Returned be more mortal than others? While regular Breaths are attached more in Physical, Divine Breaths are sufficiently inside spiritweb that they are stealable by Hemalurgy (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/364/#e11389), so Divine Breath would be anchored in Spiritual not in Physical, so death of body should not have effect on it. (Interestingly this (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/406/#e14149) says that the consumption of Investiture of Returned is to keep them alive, and if you stole that you would not need to ingest Investiture.) Ultimately, a Returned is "more mortal" because they need to keep their Divine Breath from being consumed. The Divine Breath is what anchors the Returned. Cognitive Shadows require consumption of Investiture, so regular Investiture consumption keeps the Returned from consuming the Divine Breath, destroying the anchor and killing the Returned. If the body is sufficiently destroyed, Breaths or other Investiture will be used up trying to sustain it (it takes more Investiture to sustain a broken body than a working one). Once that Investiture is gone, the Divine Breath will be consumed and the Returned will die. So the death of the body ultimately will kill a Returned 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ScadrianTank he/him Posted May 6, 2021 Report Share Posted May 6, 2021 The Fused, the Heralds, and Kelsier are different because they have an active Connection to the Shards that keeps them supplied with Investiture. The Cognitive Shadow part of the Returned doesn't have any such channels - it's anchored with a Divine Breath to a physical body. So when the body dies, their anchor returns to Endowment in the Spiritual realm, the Shadow goes back to the Cognitive realm without a Connection to make it persist. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted May 9, 2021 Report Share Posted May 9, 2021 On 5/6/2021 at 2:53 PM, ScadrianTank said: The Fused, the Heralds, and Kelsier are different because they have an active Connection to the Shards that keeps them supplied with Investiture. The Cognitive Shadow part of the Returned doesn't have any such channels - it's anchored with a Divine Breath to a physical body. So when the body dies, their anchor returns to Endowment in the Spiritual realm, the Shadow goes back to the Cognitive realm without a Connection to make it persist. Kelsier is even more different because he actually became a Shard. I suspect his Investiture is inherent to him at this point, as he is a Sliver of Preservation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mathiau he/him Posted May 9, 2021 Report Share Posted May 9, 2021 6 hours ago, Kingsdaughter613 said: Kelsier is even more different because he actually became a Shard. I suspect his Investiture is inherent to him at this point, as he is a Sliver of Preservation. We have seen him manifest objects in the CR without consuming any kind of investiture. Enough of Preservation's anti-mist will still kill him though (no idea for Harmony's anti-mist) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kingsdaughter613 she/her Posted May 9, 2021 Report Share Posted May 9, 2021 19 minutes ago, mathiau said: We have seen him manifest objects in the CR without consuming any kind of investiture. Enough of Preservation's anti-mist will still kill him though (no idea for Harmony's anti-mist) And that was before he became a Sliver... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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