Deadeyes are the Shades of Roshar [Discuss]

[+Crossen]

I had a theory after reading Shadows for Silence in the Forests of Hell that deadeyes are similar to shades. They both act in similar ways and they share some similar features:

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Eyes dead as those of a shade.

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Those haunted eyes were back, eyes void of life and emotion. Eyes like a shade’s.

To try to confirm my theory I looked on the Coppermind to see if deadeyes were cognitive shadows, like shades are. There was nothing definitive so I searched deadeye WOBs and this was the first result:

 

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YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

lay/Pau

James Smallwood

Can the Voidspren bonded by the Regals be killed and become deadeyes?

Brandon Sanderson

Voidspren bonded by the Regals, right, okay. I'll RAFO that for now. I haven't gotten into the mechanics of the Regals nearly as much as I want to eventually get into it.

Let's just say something weird is happening to make deadeyes. They didn't exist before the Recreance. There should be a relationship here that reminds you of something else you've seen in the Cosmere.

 

I am pretty sure that Brandon is referring to shades in this WOB. Have we ever confirmed if deadeyes are bonded spren cognitive shadows?

I also found this other interesting WOB:

 

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Questioner

If Kelsier's [Cognitive Shadow] or a seon went to the Forests of Hell, would they be shades there?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, that is the same thing. Now, you can see that there-- the people on that planet; their Investiture; the lack of Shard means that their Cognitive Shadows react differently.

[...]

In fact, the Cognitive Shadow is also the same thing as the ghost you saw in Mistborn, that was the spirit of Leras is the same thing too.

 

This WOB makes me think that the Ba-Ado-Mishram capture caused the deadeyes and/or caused the Heralds issues theory by Kalak could really be a misdirection. I think that the real reason is the splintering of Honor. Now it could be possible that Ba-Ado-Mishram somehow stole Honor's bonding powers during his last days in the False Desolation and her capture was the last act that completely splintered Honor, or it could be a misdirection.

Thoughts?

[+honorblades]

I really think you’re onto something here. I’m not sure how deep the connection (heh) truly goes, but I think that the parallel that something is “missing” from the Threnodite Cognitive Shadows (making them into Shades) and BAM being captured (creating Deadeyes on Roshar) is strong. In both cases, something fundamental has been torn away from what should be a fairly standard process. 

 

32 minutes ago, CROSSENuUP said:

Have we ever confirmed if deadeyes are bonded spren cognitive shadows?

I am not sure what you are asking here. I think you may be misconstruing exactly what makes Spren and Cognitive Shadows different, as they are indeed not the same thing. Spren are little bits of sentient Investiture, and Cognitive Shadows are essentially a (human or singer) Spiritweb that has been infused with enough Investiture that it persists beyond when it normally “should”. I could be wrong, but I don’t think a Spren could even be a Cognitive Shadow, as they don’t “die” in the traditional sense. 

Anyway, good post. 

[Aspiring Writer]

4 hours ago, CROSSENuUP said:

I am pretty sure that Brandon is referring to shades in this WOB

There has been speculation that the WoB is actually referring to the Shaod from Elantris. Dead-eyes don't really act like cognitive shadows, and the relation is surface-level at best. Good idea, though. 

[ElMonoEstupendo]

10 hours ago, Aspiring Writer said:

There has been speculation that the WoB is actually referring to the Shaod from Elantris. Dead-eyes don't really act like cognitive shadows, and the relation is surface-level at best. Good idea, though. 

Shaod makes a lot more sense to me.

The Elantrians were cut off from the Dor by the Reod marring the landscape, right? So if deadeyes are something similar, something must have cut their Connection to Honor or Cultivation - this is a very similar thing to what happened to the Sibling.

I think it's the introduction of a large part of Odium's Investiture into the planet - when he added his own true tone of Roshar. In Navani's experiments we learn that the tones have to shift to harmonise with each other and work together, so Odium's Investment shifted the tones of Honor and Cultivation in a similar way to the Reod shifting the landscape of Arelon.

At the moment we can only speculate where such a large amount of Odium's Investiture came from, but it's highly suspicious that one of his major spren was doing something against his wishes immediately beforehand and had just been cut off...

The exact timing of the deadeying interests me. Was it when the Radiants threw down their Shards (the actual Recreance)? Or did they suffer it before that, and the Recreance was a reaction? Or were they fine but injured until Tanavast died?

I kinda like the latter one - The Sibling can still hear Cultivation's song but not Honor's, so it strikes me that while the Shard is alive you can pick up the adjusted tones.

[+Harrycrapper]

3 minutes ago, ElMonoEstupendo said:

Shaod makes a lot more sense to me.

The Elantrians were cut off from the Dor by the Reod marring the landscape, right? So if deadeyes are something similar, something must have cut their Connection to Honor or Cultivation - this is a very similar thing to what happened to the Sibling.

I think it's the introduction of a large part of Odium's Investiture into the planet - when he added his own true tone of Roshar. In Navani's experiments we learn that the tones have to shift to harmonise with each other and work together, so Odium's Investment shifted the tones of Honor and Cultivation in a similar way to the Reod shifting the landscape of Arelon.

At the moment we can only speculate where such a large amount of Odium's Investiture came from, but it's highly suspicious that one of his major spren was doing something against his wishes immediately beforehand and had just been cut off...

The exact timing of the deadeying interests me. Was it when the Radiants threw down their Shards (the actual Recreance)? Or did they suffer it before that, and the Recreance was a reaction? Or were they fine but injured until Tanavast died?

I kinda like the latter one - The Sibling can still hear Cultivation's song but not Honor's, so it strikes me that while the Shard is alive you can pick up the adjusted tones.

It isn't the Elantrians he was referring to, it's the Seons. The Seons had the same problem the Aons did, they needed the chasm line to be whole. Seons, like spren, are also Splinters that gained sentience unlike Elantrians, which are not cognitive shadows because the Shaod does not kill them. Something had irrevocably been changed about the landscape and because the Aons were based on the landscape, they needed to be completed with the chasm line. The solution to the BAM situation seems to be somewhat of a reverse on the Elantrian one. It's thought that releasing BAM from her prison will in some way help heal the deadeyes or enable them to be healed. Instead of adapting them to the change like Seons and Aons were in Elantris, they need to fix the damage that was done. 

[Ba-Ado-Fisherman]

So so many questions of BAM... I can't wait 4-5 years for answers.  I wish I could go into cryo-sleep until Stormlight 5 comes out.