Yelig - Nar

[LightShaper1]

OK, so I saw a thread from back in 2017 talking about the screams Szeth hears, and someone suggested a similarity between the screams and the description of Yelig-Nar that 'often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed.'  I couldn't see anyone else talking about this, but anyway I have a crazy theory about Yelig-Nar.

So they brought up this WOB in that thread:

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QUESTION

 

Szeth a lot of the time throughout Words of Radiance is referring to the fact that he's hearing his victims scream in his head. Is that actually his conscience screaming at him or has he possibly already bonded to a spren in some way, that is displeased with-

BRANDON SANDERSON

That is not the spren. Good question. It is not...the spren is not a spren that is a...for one of the orders.

QUESTION

But it is related to--

BRANDON SANDERSON

I didn't say that. I just said it is not a--it is not a blade. It is not one of those.

TAGS

szeth ,  guilt

 

I think this could be interpreted as Brandon suggesting an Unmade is part of the reason that Szeth is able to hear those screams.

It seems likely that each of the Unmade was probably a Spren of some kind before they were unmade, and that each now has some kind of general effect, role or power that possibly reflects on what they previously were. There's not a huge amount of evidence supporting that so far, but it is at least the direction that Brandon seems to be leading towards. 

 

So then looking at the Unmade:

 Ashertmarn loves to party, and tries to spread that party to everyone in range.

Ba-Ado-Mishram is mostly theory still, but we got a ton in ROW, crafty and intelligent, but we now know that her imprisonment had a large effect on all living creatures on Roshar; she seems to have had some power of Connection.

Chemoarish we know basically nothing about. 

Dai-Gonarthis, again we know little, though the line 'The Black Fisher holds my sorrow and consumes it!' makes him seem very in keeping with the others.

Moelach seems to create a generalised effect on Fortune in a large area around himself. Responsible for the Death Rattles.

Nergaoul, responsible for the Thrill, mindless battle rage.

Re-Shephir we know little about, but she creates the Midnight Essence, and is obsessed with understanding mankind. Also, while she was in Urithiru, several characters felt her as a dark twisted presence, suggesting another kind of area based effect.

Sja-Anat, capable of Enlightening spren, which post-ROW we now know way more, but still understand almost nothing about. 

 And Yelig-Nar, who lets people eat him, and then gives them access to every surge.

 

So the majority have some kind of local effect, often to do with emotion. I think the two that are the least in line with that are Sja-Anat, and Yelig-nar, but even then Sja-Anat still feels to me far more similar perhaps because over time she has been continually corrupting spren. Yelig-Nar causes a specific effect on one individual who he bonds to, he feels very much the odd one out. 

There's also that line I mentioned, 'often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed.' I think the current prevailing belief is that the line simply refers generally to people who have been overwhelmed by him once they've shoved him in their mouth, which we assume is what happened to Aesudan, but there's actually no evidence of that.

So, my crazy theory:

What if instead, Yelig-Nar's power/role is that he has been consuming the souls of the dead on Roshar since he was unmade. What if he were something like the spren of the afterlife on Roshar, until he was corrupted.  

Perhaps his ability to gift the whole range of surges to an individual, is because he has consumed the spiritwebs of people with access to each surge.

He is responsible for messing with the afterlife on Roshar, and is the cause of certain people hearing the screams of the dead, as a large scale effect across Roshar.

Thoughts?

 

Oh here's that thread I was talking about:

 

 

 

 

Edited April 22, 2021 by LightShaper1

[Honorless he/him]

It has to do with the Spiritual Realm

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Blightsong

Is anything magical going on with the screams Szeth hears?

Brandon Sanderson

Uhhh, Szeth's screams. Uhhm, I'm trying to decide how to answer this. It is not, see here's the thing. What we would call magical may not be considered magical in the Cosmere, but it depends on your definition of magic. Would Szeth if he were on our planet and have done those things would he hear those screams, probably not, but would someone else in the Cosmere who had gone through what he had gone through hear those screams, yes.

Blightsong

So it has to do with the spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yea, mhmm, yea.

OdysseyCon 2016 (April 8, 2016)

Spiritwebs can linger on after death for a while, so long as they have some Connections. So Szeth is hearing the screams of his victims' Spiritwebs.

[+Child of Hodor]

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

It has to do with the Spiritual Realm

Spiritwebs can linger on after death for a while, so long as they have some Connections. So Szeth is hearing the screams of his victims' Spiritwebs.

It doesn't seem to impact everyone who kills a ton of people equally though. It is weird Szeth hears them, seemingly, all the time. Dalinar did a bit before and during his trip to the Valley, the screams of his victims from the fire. He also hears Evi right before he does the clap in Oathbringer. But he doesn't hear them all the time. 

I'm just saying there are POV characters that have killed a bunch of people and don't hear anything. Szeth's bodycount is high, but it's not thaaaat high for Roshar.  Brandon mentions the wider Cosmere, but I can't think of anyone else that has this happen to them. Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

 Kelsier and Vin endured terrible things and went on to kill a loooooot of people yet they don't have people talking in their head other Vin having Ruin talk to her. 

@LightShaper1 I used to assume Szeth hears the voices because there is an Unmade following him around. Despite what Brandon said in the WoB I think this is a more Roshar-centric thing. One of the Unmade being a spren that helped the dead pass on until Odium got to them makes sense to me. 

I would say Moelach fits the what you are describing better than Yelig-nar. Seeping into souls at the moment of death.

Quote

 

There is one you will watch. Though all of them have some relevance to precognition, Moelach is one of the most powerful in this regard. His touch seeps into a soul as it breaks apart from the body, creating manifestations powered by the spark of death itself. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Moelach

 

[Leuthie]

5 hours ago, Honorless said:

It has to do with the Spiritual Realm

Spiritwebs can linger on after death for a while, so long as they have some Connections. So Szeth is hearing the screams of his victims' Spiritwebs.

 

3 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

It doesn't seem to impact everyone who kills a ton of people equally though. It is weird Szeth hears them, seemingly, all the time. Dalinar did a bit before and during his trip to the Valley, the screams of his victims from the fire. He also hears Evi right before he does the clap in Oathbringer. But he doesn't hear them all the time. 

I'm just saying there are POV characters that have killed a bunch of people and don't hear anything. Szeth's bodycount is high, but it's not thaaaat high for Roshar.  Brandon mentions the wider Cosmere, but I can't think of anyone else that has this happen to them. Mistborn spoilers:

  Reveal hidden contents

 Kelsier and Vin endured terrible things and went on to kill a loooooot of people yet they don't have people talking in their head other Vin having Ruin talk to her. 

@LightShaper1 I used to assume Szeth hears the voices because there is an Unmade following him around. Despite what Brandon said in the WoB I think this is a more Roshar-centric thing. One of the Unmade being a spren that helped the dead pass on until Odium got to them makes sense to me. 

I would say Moelach fits the what you are describing better than Yelig-nar. Seeping into souls at the moment of death.

 

Szeth didn't kill with detachment. He intentionally felt each death to its fullest, believing he deserved that as a part of his punishment. He went so far as to create a Connection to each person he killed. These Connections haven't disappeared, and it's through these Connections that he gets messages that he interprets as screams. I think his "mindfulness" at the moment of killing resulted in his hearing these screams and, like Kaladin's brands disappearing, they will stop when he fully forgives himself for his original sin (which he's very close to doing, since he has dismissed his people's view of him as having sinned) and for allowing his people to set him up as the assassin (and for which he's on a current quest to expunge).

Book 5 will see Szeth stop the screaming.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Leuthie

[Infinity Sliver]

14 hours ago, Leuthie said:

 

Szeth didn't kill with detachment. He intentionally felt each death to its fullest, believing he deserved that as a part of his punishment. He went so far as to create a Connection to each person he killed. These Connections haven't disappeared, and it's through these Connections that he gets messages that he interprets as screams. I think his "mindfulness" at the moment of killing resulted in his hearing these screams and, like Kaladin's brands disappearing, they will stop when he fully forgives himself for his original sin (which he's very close to doing, since he has dismissed his people's view of him as having sinned) and for allowing his people to set him up as the assassin (and for which he's on a current quest to expunge).

Book 5 will see Szeth stop the screaming.

I'm not sure if he made Connections to everyone he killed but I think the common thing between Szeth and Dalinar was the guilt they felt,but yea,I agree he has to forgive himself much like Dalinar did 

[LewsTherinTelescope]

19 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

I'm just saying there are POV characters that have killed a bunch of people and don't hear anything. Szeth's bodycount is high, but it's not thaaaat high for Roshar.  Brandon mentions the wider Cosmere, but I can't think of anyone else that has this happen to them. Mistborn spoilers:

I'd guess the strength of emotion and the fundamental part of themselves it becomes is why. The two are consumed by regret and guilt to the point it drives their entire lives.

Szeth still barely allows himself to think due to his time as Truthless. What is it the Sleepless blurb calls him, the assassin who weeps as he kills? Every death affects him and drives him further into the pit of despair and hell. He constantly thinks of himself as damned, damned among the worst of sinners, with only one single way to become a worse man than he already has. And then it turns out he was never Truthless in the first place, making it all the more painful.

And Dalinar feels horrible guilt and regret for the Rift, and more specifically for Evi. He buries himself in alcohol, ignores his children, hates himself for his actions and believes he can never be forgiven. Again, his entire life revolves around these actions. Those he killed are deeply part of who he is.

 

Meanwhile, Vin struggled with this, but she came to her own conclusion on how to handle it and got over it. The guilt and pain was a struggle, but never became as much of a lasting baseline to her being as it was for the other two.

 

There's actually one more character in the Cosmere whose killing was a core part in their life, whose pain over the death was a driving force in everything they did:

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“When she fell sick, I took her to Elantris,” Dilaf mumbled, his legs pulled tightly against his chest. “I knew it was pagan, I knew it was blasphemous, but even forty years as a Dakhor wasn’t enough to keep me away … not when I thought Elantris could save her. Elantris can heal, they said, while Dakhor cannot. And I took her.”

The monk was no longer looking at Hrathen. His eyes were unfocused. “They changed her,” he whispered. “They said the spell went wrong, but I know the truth. They knew me, and they hated me. Why, then, did they have to put their curse on Seala? Her skin turned black, her hair fell out, and she began to die. She screamed at night, yelling that the pain was eating her from the inside. Eventually she threw herself off the city wall.”

Dilaf’s voice turned reverently mournful. “I found her at the bottom, still alive. Still alive, despite the fall. And I burned her. She never stopped screaming. She screams still. I can hear her. She will scream until Elantris is gone.”

He hated Elantris before, because it was blasphemous, but it wasn't until he had to kill Seala that he truly became so deeply, deeply obsessed with tearing it down, burning its remnants, destroying every trace of its power. Her death by his hands was a fundamental trait to the man he had become. And so, her screams follow him.

[+Child of Hodor]

On 4/22/2021 at 5:33 PM, Leuthie said:

 

Szeth didn't kill with detachment. He intentionally felt each death to its fullest, believing he deserved that as a part of his punishment. He went so far as to create a Connection to each person he killed. These Connections haven't disappeared, and it's through these Connections that he gets messages that he interprets as screams. I think his "mindfulness" at the moment of killing resulted in his hearing these screams and, like Kaladin's brands disappearing, they will stop when he fully forgives himself for his original sin (which he's very close to doing, since he has dismissed his people's view of him as having sinned) and for allowing his people to set him up as the assassin (and for which he's on a current quest to expunge).

Book 5 will see Szeth stop the screaming.

On 4/23/2021 at 9:55 AM, LewsTherinTelescope said:

I'd guess the strength of emotion and the fundamental part of themselves it becomes is why. The two are consumed by regret and guilt to the point it drives their entire lives.

Szeth still barely allows himself to think due to his time as Truthless. What is it the Sleepless blurb calls him, the assassin who weeps as he kills? Every death affects him and drives him further into the pit of despair and hell. He constantly thinks of himself as damned, damned among the worst of sinners, with only one single way to become a worse man than he already has. And then it turns out he was never Truthless in the first place, making it all the more painful.

And Dalinar feels horrible guilt and regret for the Rift, and more specifically for Evi. He buries himself in alcohol, ignores his children, hates himself for his actions and believes he can never be forgiven. Again, his entire life revolves around these actions. Those he killed are deeply part of who he is.

 

Meanwhile, Vin struggled with this, but she came to her own conclusion on how to handle it and got over it. The guilt and pain was a struggle, but never became as much of a lasting baseline to her being as it was for the other two.

 

There's actually one more character in the Cosmere whose killing was a core part in their life, whose pain over the death was a driving force in everything they did:

He hated Elantris before, because it was blasphemous, but it wasn't until he had to kill Seala that he truly became so deeply, deeply obsessed with tearing it down, burning its remnants, destroying every trace of its power. Her death by his hands was a fundamental trait to the man he had become. And so, her screams follow him.

You both make good points, the Dilaf example is good pull! 

Kelsier is capable of feeling guilty, but he is some sociopathic personality markers and takes real glee in killing at times. Dalinar did as well with the Thrill, but clearly felt guilty and was traumatized by what he did at the Rift. Szeth feels guilty already when he is introduced. I believe it's the first thing he says.

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"What am I?"  "I'm ... sorry." - WoK prologue (great opening line). 

 

[Waffles]

I like the theory. This would also explain why the spren shardblades scream, it traps the echoes of their victim. I wonder if the honorblades specifically enhance this effect- the only other person to use one as an assassin onscreen also suffered side effects, though I suppose Nale and the other heralds would hear eternal screaming if this were the case. Maybe the effect is enhanced by killing people with investiture?

[Guest]

@Waffles that’s not why the shard blades scream. We were told via WOB that the shard blades scream because of the bond. 

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

On a related note, does Szeth still hear the screams? I don't think they have been mentioned since he was resurrected by Nale in WoR. 

On 2021-04-22 at 6:11 PM, LightShaper1 said:

Ashertmarn loves to party, and tries to spread that party to everyone in range.

This is great. Should be on Ashertmarns Coppermind page. 

[Leuthie]

On 4/23/2021 at 6:18 AM, Infinitysliver said:

I'm not sure if he made Connections to everyone he killed but I think the common thing between Szeth and Dalinar was the guilt they felt,but yea,I agree he has to forgive himself much like Dalinar did 

If he's hearing the lingering Spirit Web of those he killed, there are Connections. It could be those Connections that keep those screaming Spirit Webs around. The dead can't fully rest until Szeth forgives himself and releases those Connections. 

My post was to provide some reasoning for the existence of the Connections. Szeth didn't kill with detachment. He felt every one. He apologized for every one as he was performing the act. He felt them so much, he couldn't actually let go of them. He Willed a Connection to each person he killed and those people scream at him through those Connections.