Heleran's Shards

[Chinkoln he/him]

Heleran was a full Shardbearer, with a Blade and Plate. He was also a Skybreaker. This doesn't make sense, for a few different reasons.

Scenario 1

Heleran is a Skybreaker and has a living blade. Kaladin killed him. His blade didn't disappear. If he was a Skybreaker, why did the Blade stay? It should have broken the bond but left the spren alive, free to seek a new Radiant.

Scenario 2

Heleran is a Skybreaker with a dead blade. Automatic migraines. 

Scenario 3

He has a dead blade, and isnt a Skybreaker. False, we know he was a Skybreaker.

 

So can anyone tell me, what is up with his blade and plate!?!

[Okdes he/him]

Scenario 4

He was part of the skybreakers but hadn't bonded with a spren yet, and his blade was dead 

 

[Chinkoln he/him]

2 minutes ago, Okdes said:

Scenario 4

He was part of the skybreakers but hadn't bonded with a spren yet, and his blade was dead 

 

Ya know, that makes sense. I felt like I was missing an important middle ground scenario.

[Okdes he/him]

Just now, Chinkoln said:

Ya know, that makes sense. I felt like I was missing an important middle ground scenario.

Glad to help 

[Chinkoln he/him]

But wait, Radiant spren despise dead blades. It would be odd that they would let one of their squires use one, or that they would even own one.

[Quantus he/him]

38 minutes ago, Chinkoln said:

But wait, Radiant spren despise dead blades. It would be odd that they would let one of their squires use one, or that they would even own one.

Skybreakers, and presumably their Spren, are VERY pragmatic.  And the use of Shardblades is entirely Legal (if sometimes regulated) in most Lands.  They might not use one themselves due to all the screaming, but they'd probably let allies use them. 

 

[Okdes he/him]

55 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Skybreakers, and presumably their Spren, are VERY pragmatic.  And the use of Shardblades is entirely Legal (if sometimes regulated) in most Lands.  They might not use one themselves due to all the screaming, but they'd probably let allies use them. 

 

Skybreakers do be whack 

[AquaRegia he/him]

Szeth is approaching his 4th Ideal as a Skybreaker, does not yet have a living Sprenblade, and his bonded spren seems to have no problem with Nightblood.  Just saying.

[Chinkoln he/him]

16 minutes ago, AquaRegia said:

Szeth is approaching his 4th Ideal as a Skybreaker, does not yet have a living Sprenblade, and his bonded spren seems to have no problem with Nightblood.  Just saying.

Nightblood is definitely not the same thing as a dead Shardblade

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

3 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

Nightblood is definitely not the same thing as a dead Shardblade

But it sure is more of an abomination

[+Harrycrapper]

 

9 hours ago, Chinkoln said:

But wait, Radiant spren despise dead blades. It would be odd that they would let one of their squires use one, or that they would even own one.

I don't think he was even a squire yet, he was just a prospective candidate. He likely would have been ordered to relinquish his Blade and Plate in order to become Radiant. 

[MGershone]

17 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

 

I don't think he was even a squire yet, he was just a prospective candidate. He likely would have been ordered to relinquish his Blade and Plate in order to become Radiant. 

Even more than that - he tried to kill amaram in order to impress the Skybreakers so they would  ask him to join them, I'm pretty sure

Edited March 9, 2021 by MGershone

[+robardin he/him]

TBH this part of Mraize's letter to Shallan didn't and still doesn't ring quite true.

Not just about how a deadspren Blade would be tolerated in a candidate for a Nahel bond (after all, we see both Dalinar and Elhokar forming nascent Nahel bonds while bonded with such a Blade), but why the Skybreakers would have a full set of Shards on hand, AND would give them to an acolyte to use (someone who couldn't even draw Stormlight yet, as a squire to a master, requiring the Second Ideal).

Helaran already had that Blade when he back to visit the Davar household and threatened his father with it, several years before he appeared on that battlefield to try to kill Amaram. So it wasn't something "on loan for a mission" from the Skybreakers; he had "personal use" of the Blade, if not the Plate, for some time.

We see Skybreaker acolytes working with their would-be masters and with Nalan in Edgedancer and Oathbreaker, and they are not given any such equipment, nor is any such opportunity held over them as enticement, for all that Helaran was supposedly recruited "with a display of Shards and power".

...Unless it was in the same vein as Szeth being given Nightblood by Nalan, which was even more singular (as Nightblood is beyond any ordinary Shardblade, even a living one). Hmm.

My take: either the Skybreakers had some very special regard or future plans in mind for Helaran, or Mraize is wrong about how or why he got them (either intentionally lying, or actually misled).

[+Harrycrapper]

49 minutes ago, robardin said:

TBH this part of Mraize's letter to Shallan didn't and still doesn't ring quite true.

Not just about how a deadspren Blade would be tolerated in a candidate for a Nahel bond (after all, we see both Dalinar and Elhokar forming nascent Nahel bonds while bonded with such a Blade), but why the Skybreakers would have a full set of Shards on hand, AND would give them to an acolyte to use (someone who couldn't even draw Stormlight yet, as a squire to a master, requiring the Second Ideal).

Helaran already had that Blade when he back to visit the Davar household and threatened his father with it, several years before he appeared on that battlefield to try to kill Amaram. So it wasn't something "on loan for a mission" from the Skybreakers; he had "personal use" of the Blade, if not the Plate, for some time.

We see Skybreaker acolytes working with their would-be masters and with Nalan in Edgedancer and Oathbreaker, and they are not given any such equipment, nor is any such opportunity held over them as enticement, for all that Helaran was supposedly recruited "with a display of Shards and power".

...Unless it was in the same vein as Szeth being given Nightblood by Nalan, which was even more singular (as Nightblood is beyond any ordinary Shardblade, even a living one). Hmm.

My take: either the Skybreakers had some very special regard or future plans in mind for Helaran, or Mraize is wrong about how or why he got them (either intentionally lying, or actually misled).

They knew or had suspicions that someone in the Davar household was in the process of bonding a spren. Possibly the fact that Shallan's mother died with burnt out eyes leaked out of the household or she had informed them of her suspicions. Either way, they thought that Heleran was in the process of or had bonded a Radiant spren. One way to test it would have been to have him bond a deadblade. Helaran is the only person we've seen the Skybreakers recruit that was suspected of forming a bond, that could be a standard way they test recruits of that nature. 

[+robardin he/him]

2 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

They knew or had suspicions that someone in the Davar household was in the process of bonding a spren. Possibly the fact that Shallan's mother died with burnt out eyes leaked out of the household or she had informed them of her suspicions. Either way, they thought that Heleran was in the process of or had bonded a Radiant spren. One way to test it would have been to have him bond a deadblade. Helaran is the only person we've seen the Skybreakers recruit that was suspected of forming a bond, that could be a standard way they test recruits of that nature. 

That also doesn't ring true... If they thought he was a Radiant of the Third Ideal of some other Order than the Skybreakers (as required for a Shardblade), Nalan would certainly have come to kill him personally.

Giving him a deadspren Shardblade to see what he would do with it as their litmus test before making that call, well that is an interesting idea. It could match both rarity of scenario with scarcity of supply (how many such Shards they'd have on hand).

[+Harrycrapper]

1 minute ago, robardin said:

That also doesn't ring true... If they thought he was a Radiant of the Third Ideal of some other Order than the Skybreakers (as required for a Shardblade), Nalan would certainly have come to kill him personally.

Giving him a deadspren Shardblade to see what he would do with it as their litmus test before making that call, well that is an interesting idea. It could match both rarity of scenario with scarcity of supply (how many such Shards they'd have on hand).

Nalan isn't going to kill someone unless they've committed a crime that he can prosecute them with. He has no qualms about finding the crime with the pure intent of killing that person, but he looks for the crime first. He literally got up and walked away from Lift once she was pardoned. There are no witnesses for the events in the Davar household except Shallan, who was catatonic, and Lin who vehemently denied that he killed his wife. Helaran very well might have never committed a crime in his life, so they took a different approach than they did with someone like Ym or Lift. 

Though another possibility just occurred to me. What if the Blade and Plate were trap? They believed Helaran was bonded, but he didn't commit a crime. So they gave him the tools to commit a crime(killing Amaram) with the intent to kill him after he accomplished the deed. Two birds with one stone. 

[+robardin he/him]

3 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said:

Nalan isn't going to kill someone unless they've committed a crime that he can prosecute them with. He has no qualms about finding the crime with the pure intent of killing that person, but he looks for the crime first. He literally got up and walked away from Lift once she was pardoned. There are no witnesses for the events in the Davar household except Shallan, who was catatonic, and Lin who vehemently denied that he killed his wife. Helaran very well might have never committed a crime in his life, so they took a different approach than they did with someone like Ym or Lift. 

Though another possibility just occurred to me. What if the Blade and Plate were trap? They believed Helaran was bonded, but he didn't commit a crime. So they gave him the tools to commit a crime(killing Amaram) with the intent to kill him after he accomplished the deed. Two birds with one stone. 

Hey that's pretty plausible. Except for the fact that Helaran walked around for 3+ years with at least the Blade before showing up to attack Amaram... Maybe he was just so bad at being bad that the Skybreakers couldn't get him to break a law in all that time, haha.

"So, you went to confront your father. Did you kill him with the Blade we gave you?"

"No, I just threatened him with it. And told him I had more important things to do now. Like becoming a Skybreaker!"

"*Cough* Right. Well, ah, before we let you take the next round of squire tests, there's this Iriali shoemaker we want you to visit..."

...

"So, did you find the cobbler?"

"Yeah. Nice guy. Makes shoes for kids for free."

"Did you find anything about his past? Anything illegal?"

"Well, he moved around a lot when he was younger... And at one point, he was a courier for a loan shark or something."

"That sounds bad."

"Yeah, he quit that to become a cobbler after one of his deliveries turned out to be a poisonous gift of some kind."

"Ah! That's very bad! Someone died! Did you kill him for this with your Blade?"

"What?! No! That can't have been his fault."

"Nalan thinks otherwise."

"Well then, Nalan can go kill him. Or he or my master can order me to do it, once I'm a Skybreaker squire. I'm not going to do it on my own!"

*cough*

 

[+Harrycrapper]

1 hour ago, robardin said:

Hey that's pretty plausible. Except for the fact that Helaran walked around for 3+ years with at least the Blade before showing up to attack Amaram... Maybe he was just so bad at being bad that the Skybreakers couldn't get him to break a law in all that time, haha.

"So, you went to confront your father. Did you kill him with the Blade we gave you?"

"No, I just threatened him with it. And told him I had more important things to do now. Like becoming a Skybreaker!"

"*Cough* Right. Well, ah, before we let you take the next round of squire tests, there's this Iriali shoemaker we want you to visit..."

...

"So, did you find the cobbler?"

"Yeah. Nice guy. Makes shoes for kids for free."

"Did you find anything about his past? Anything illegal?"

"Well, he moved around a lot when he was younger... And at one point, he was a courier for a loan shark or something."

"That sounds bad."

"Yeah, he quit that to become a cobbler after one of his deliveries turned out to be a poisonous gift of some kind."

"Ah! That's very bad! Someone died! Did you kill him for this with your Blade?"

"What?! No! That can't have been his fault."

"Nalan thinks otherwise."

"Well then, Nalan can go kill him. Or he or my master can order me to do it, once I'm a Skybreaker squire. I'm not going to do it on my own!"

*cough*

 

Hmmm yea the timing on that doesn't quite work out. Maybe something more along the lines of a test, to see what he'd do with it. Giving Moash Blade and Plate showed Kaladin who he really was relatively quickly.