[Discuss] Why aren't the Singers extinct?

[Gnmish]

Hi everyone, I don't post here often so apologies if this has been covered, but on thinking about RoW and it's revelations something has been bugging me.

Why was the Singer race allowed to survive between desolations?

I'll start with a few assertions that I assume are correct:

* Roshar had multiple desolations during the Heraldic Epocs, and by the end they were only a few years apart.

* Immediately after a desolation, the Heralds when back to Braise, the world was devastated but the Knights Radiant were in full operation.

* All fused return to Braise after a desolation, and no forms of power are granted (with the exception of Ba-Ado-Mishram's false desolation)

* The Parshmen form didn't exist before the imprisonment of Ba-Ado-Mishram at the end of the false desolation/recreance, so between desolations they would have been on par with the Parshendi in terms of forms (Warform)

What bugs me is why didn't some of the Knights Radiant make the same practical decision that Jasna came up with and just decide that the Singers needed to be eradicated in the time between desolations? Considering how close together the Desolations were by the end, it would not have been a secret as to what a 'Void Bringer' is, at least in the Vorin people's minds.

Obviously the Wind Runners, Edge Dancers etc would have opted for a live-and-let-live philosophy, but it would only take a few more pragmatic Elsecallers, or one Szeth level Skybreaker to decide that it was best for everyone if the Singers were extinct the next time a Herald broke.

Considering what they can do vs unpowered individuals, even a handful of determined Radiants would have been able to commit a genocide capable of severely hampering the next desolation, no Singers, No forms of power, no Fused.

Edited March 7, 2021 by Gnmish

[Bejarden]

It’s pretty hard to commit Genocide  I Assure you

Expecially when the opposition is defenseless.

The Radients are by and large good people it would be very hard to just go and kill a entire nation

They was also a rational of “maybe the Heralds won’t break this time maybe it will be permanent”

Also after a Desolation humanity was utterly destroyed why would they waste time starting more wars when they could fix society

[apepi]

Life before death.

And from what I always assumed, after the end of the war, everything had gone to rust. People seemed like they could most likely not even make metal weapons/cast bronze by Taln's mantra after desolations. It isn't like it was now, where they had time to develop for 4000 years.

 

Quote

I am Talenel'Elin, Herald of War. The time of the Return, the Desolation, is near at hand. We must prepare. You will have forgotten much, following the destruction of the times past. Kalak will teach you to cast bronze, if you have forgotten this. We will Soulcast blocks of metal directly for you. I wish we could teach you steel, but casting is so much easier than forging, and you must have something we can produce quickly. Your stone tools will not serve against what is to come. Vedel can train your surgeons, and Jezrien . . . he will teach you leadership. So much is lost between Returns . . . I will train your soldiers. We should have time. Ishar keeps talking about a way to keep information from being lost following Desolations. And you have discovered something unexpected. We will use that. Surgebinders to act as guardians . . . Knights . . . The coming days will be difficult, but with training, humanity will survive. You must bring me to your leaders. The other Heralds should join us soon.

 

[Draigwyrdd]

I actually don't think the end of a Desolation meant that the war was "won" in the sense that all the Singers were neutralised/routed/no longer in control of any territory or other locations. Coppermind says that Heralds had a set amount of time they could be present on Roshar, and if they exceeded it, there would be a new Desolation. So it seems like sometimes they probably just had to leave, even if they would rather stay to fight on. Initially there were no Knights Radiant, so it makes sense that Singers would persist after the Heralds are no longer there to lead the humans, who would have been battered and broken after near-apocalyptic wars. The level of devastation is said to have been absolutely insane, so I don't really think anyone was able to do much more than scratch out some sort of life amidst the rubble.

The Singers may not have had Fused or voidspren to lead them, but they probably still did have parsh in Regal forms--they don't have to go to Braize, and to my knowledge the form doesn't "expire". So I doubt the Singers were defenceless even though they were probably just as ravaged as the humans. I imagine between Desolations both sides settle into a kind of cold war with numerous little "hot" wars spread between them, if they even have the population density and general level of sophistication to go about such a costly endeavour (which I doubt). It's entirely possible the whole world was just scattered groups of humans along with scattered groups of Singers eking out difficult existences in the wilderness.

[Bejarden]

There were wars after Desolations but it is hard to exterminate an enemy after it surrender later

[Master Silver]

On 3/8/2021 at 10:06 PM, Draigwyrdd said:

I actually don't think the end of a Desolation meant that the war was "won" in the sense that all the Singers were neutralised/routed/no longer in control of any territory or other locations. Coppermind says that Heralds had a set amount of time they could be present on Roshar, and if they exceeded it, there would be a new Desolation. So it seems like sometimes they probably just had to leave, even if they would rather stay to fight on. Initially there were no Knights Radiant, so it makes sense that Singers would persist after the Heralds are no longer there to lead the humans, who would have been battered and broken after near-apocalyptic wars. The level of devastation is said to have been absolutely insane, so I don't really think anyone was able to do much more than scratch out some sort of life amidst the rubble.

The Singers may not have had Fused or voidspren to lead them, but they probably still did have parsh in Regal forms--they don't have to go to Braize, and to my knowledge the form doesn't "expire". So I doubt the Singers were defenceless even though they were probably just as ravaged as the humans. I imagine between Desolations both sides settle into a kind of cold war with numerous little "hot" wars spread between them, if they even have the population density and general level of sophistication to go about such a costly endeavour (which I doubt). It's entirely possible the whole world was just scattered groups of humans along with scattered groups of Singers eking out difficult existences in the wilderness.

I think that is a great point. Think of it like a hail mary in football. Every desolation, the victory that stopped or contained the Singers became more and more desperate. And when the singers had realms and armis and fortresses, I think the humans just were able to stop the Singers ability to wage war for a time. But the singers have so many natural advantages. It isn't until the Knights Radiant and surge binders that the humans start to make gains, but these are countered by the singers. The only opportunity to wipe the Singers out was when most of them were Parshmen, but human greed (and maybe decency) stopped them from doing that. But yeah, Rabboni came to that conclusion too. The cycle must stop and someone has to pass into the void.

[Malim]

Honestly, I wonder if this line of thought had something to do with the Recreance.  We know that there was heavy fighting at the time, and it is quite conceivable that the idea of a complete genocide had been floated by some of the more Machiavellian orders.

Maybe the strike at BAM was a middle ground option, and when, or if, it didn't come off quite as planned, the genocide option gained more ground.  I can see a scenario that has Honor raving about the destruction Surges can cause, coupled with a plan to use those Surges to go full on Nazi Germani being a breaking point for many of the orders.  After all, it is one thing to armchair talk about killing everyone who might oppose you, regardless of the morality of such an option, and another to actually implement that plan.

Edited March 11, 2021 by Malim

[Master Silver]

I can see most of the knights and spren break their oaths rather than kill defenseless Parshmen. 

[basement_boi]

Jasnah doesn’t have a problem right now with genocide because

1. They’re in the middle of war

2. The singers are “resources” for the fused.

Outside of Desolations, the singers are just innocent people who want their lives to be peaceful. They didn’t  like the Fused much, as the listeners talk about hating their gods. So I’m between, they are just innocents.