The good in Odium?

[shawnhargreaves]

A random late night musing that I want to write down now in case it no longer makes sense to me in the morning :-)

 

One of the things I love about Brandon is that his villains are real, believable people rather than the cartoon "muahaha I will now destroy everything while laughing maniacally" stereotype.  They do genuinely terrible things, but almost always for what seems to them to be justifiable, good reasons.  Either their priorities are out of whack, or they are misinformed, but from where they stand it seems like they're doing the right thing.

 

Sadeas genuinely believed that Dalinar had lost the plot, and that Alethkar needed a strong, ruthless leader to take control and preserve what Gavilar had built.
 

Bluefingers genuinely believed that starting a massive, destructive war was the best way to free his people from oppression.
 

The Lord Ruler genuinely believed that dictatorial control and ruthless oppression of the Skaa and Terris people was the only way to keep control in order to prevent Ruin from ruining everything.

 

SO much more interesting than the all-too-common "I'm evil just because, and I love to destroy stuff for no other reason than that I'm evil..."

 

Particularly interesting to me is how the seemingly obvious Preservation = good, Ruin = bad was undermined by Brandon explaining that both had to work together to create life, and by how many of the aspects of The Lord Ruler that Kelsier found most objectionable were actually due to his overly rigid, static interpretation of Preservation-y rather than Ruin-y directives.

 

So what about Odium?  The most clearly evil thing Brandon has written about to date.  He hates.  That's it: all he does.   Oh yeah, and he splinters things too.   Clearly bad, in fact rotten to the core.   Totally unlike that Honor dude, who is obviously good and noble and honorable...

 

Really?

 

I wonder.

 

I struggle to imagine what could possibly be good about Odium, or how the Honor/Odium conflict could be anything other than black & white good vs. evil.   And yet, Brandon's history of nuanced, complex villains makes me wonder.

 

In particular the quote from WoR, "his divine hatred".   What is divine about hatred?   I have a sneaking feeling Brandon might be about to show us.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Divine Hatred. The Hatred of those who would destroy what you have built. Righteous Anger. The Wrath felt at the Enemy Who goes above and Beyond What is Neccasary. Justified Vengence. What is done to those who wrong you and yours in the Foulest of Ways.

 

Even Adonalsium Contained Hate. But God hates the Sin, not the Sinner. Odium is that hate, without the Context of Devotion, and Cultivation. He hates the Sin and the sinner, as well as the Forgiver and the Forgiver's Neighbor's Cat for good Measure.

[Ketek]

Well, we have a precedent for how Shards predisposed to 'evil' Intents see things - Ruin.

 

Ruin genuinely believed that nothing was beautiful or perfect until the day it was destroyed. To it, destruction was the most beautiful thing in this world - it literally could not see things in another way, because of its intent.

 

Now, we know that Rayse (according to Hoid) was a bad person before he took up Odium. We can safely assume, I think, that he held grudges. Perhaps now that he is the very personification of hatred, he sees vengeance as being the only thing to live for, the one thing that gives his life any purpose.

[Curiosity]

Yes. God ought to have and does have anger towards wrongdoing.

 

However, in Odium's case, the virtue of righteous anger is separated from any context of morality and simply directed towards everything, everyone, and anyone. This is why he wants to be the most powerful entity in the Cosmere. He wants to bring everyone down to the level that he sees them at. 

 

There is a quote from WoR

He bears the weight of God’s own divine hatred, separated from the virtues that gave it context. He is what we made him to be, old friend.

[red032]

Odium is very democratic and egalitarian - he hates everyone equally, without distinction. When everyone else is destroyed and without any focus for it´s divine hate, he will turn it upon itself and  self destroy.

 

Then the universe will be quiet, tidy and clean.

[A Joe in the Bush]

And Boring. A Universe without Lopen? Lightsong? Hoid? Yeah, Odium is definitely Evil.

[Shaggai]

Odium is very democratic and egalitarian - he hates everyone equally, without distinction. When everyone else is destroyed and without any focus for it´s divine hate, he will turn it upon itself and  self destroy.

 

Then the universe will be quiet, tidy and clean.

He won't destroy stuff. That's Ruin's job. Things have to exist to be hated. Given the state of Braize (as far as we can tell, anyway), it seems like Odium winning would be much worse than Ruin winning.

[shawnhargreaves]

He won't destroy stuff. That's Ruin's job. Things have to exist to be hated. Given the state of Braize (as far as we can tell, anyway), it seems like Odium winning would be much worse than Ruin winning.

 

Is it better to burn forever in the kind of torture the Heralds are subjected to, or for everything to be destroyed entirely?  The latter ends in a state of nothingness which at least doesn't hurt any more, but with the former there is at least some slim chance the situation might someday change or you might be able to escape.

[Shaggai]

Is it better to burn forever in the kind of torture the Heralds are subjected to, or for everything to be destroyed entirely?  The latter ends in a state of nothingness which at least doesn't hurt any more, but with the former there is at least some slim chance the situation might someday change or you might be able to escape.

Given the state of Taln, I'll go with the former. Oblivion at least is painless.

[A Joe in the Bush]

Divine Hatred. The Hatred of those who would destroy what you have built. Righteous Anger. The Wrath felt at the Enemy Who goes above and Beyond What is Neccasary. Justified Vengence. What is done to those who wrong you and yours in the Foulest of Ways.

 

Even Adonalsium Contained Hate. But God hates the Sin, not the Sinner. Odium is that hate, without the Context of Devotion, and Cultivation. He hates the Sin and the sinner, as well as the Forgiver and the Forgiver's Neighbor's Cat for good Measure.

I get really Poetic when I'm Tired.

 

Anyway. If Odium 'Wins' The entire Cosmere will be stuck in the Process of Ruin. Everyone hating Eveything, and acting on that hate, but also feeling Remorse, and hating themselves.

[Aleksiel]

The good in Odium is probably the same as the good in WoT Father of Lies - people have darkness in them and if you take it away, they no longer seem human.

 

You can't have solely honorable people. All Shards so far represent aspects of human nature that co-exist in all of us. Of course, not everyone (or rather very few) experience righteous hatred or truly hate anything at all, but people are capable of hatred, even if most people don't go further than hating a certain food.

 

Honor and Odium seem like a very good match to me. A righteous, honorable person can hate strongly oppressors and wrong-doers like how Kaladin hates lighteyes. He takes his hatred for Roshone and Amaram out of context and wrongfully applies it to all lighteyes.

And as we saw in WoR, that nearly destroyed him.

 My impression is most readers found it understandable and a sign of realism in Kal's character, so his hatred is part of what makes him human. Take that away without explanation and his character loses credibility.

 

edit: on a different note I can easily imagine something of the sort to have happened to Tanavast, because as we saw the combination of honor and hatred can be very destructive.

Edited June 7, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

Take that away without explanation and his character loses credibility.

 

edit: on a different note I can easily imagine something of the sort to have happened to Tanavast, because as we saw the combination of honor and hatred can be very destructive.

 

I agree. Lately, I have had issues with Kaladin's credibility. I believe Brandon put too much effort in making him magnificent and it ruined the character slightly, for me. Hopefully, he still has this hatred preventing him from being nearly perfect.

[Aleksiel]

I agree. Lately, I have had issues with Kaladin's credibility. I believe Brandon put too much effort in making him magnificent and it ruined the character slightly, for me. Hopefully, he still has this hatred preventing him from being nearly perfect.

 

He overcame if not his hatred, at least the urge to act on it and is now lighteyes, so he can chose between dealing with his issue or hating himself.

I think he'll soon overcome his unjustified hatred.

 

Kal's far from perfect. For one, he's nearly incapable of taking reasonable responsibility - he either believe himself cursed (like he accused lighteyes for what he has become as if he had no other ways to react), or blames it all on himself (like his fellow slaves deaths), his general over-protectiveness. He has issues with his parents since he didn't have the strength to meet them or even write to them after Tien's death. Kaladin fears he'll lose again the little he has now, has depression, can't go back to normal activities such as going out with friends (he even doesn't think he has other friends than Moash). Kal also has trust issues (which is different from hatred and no longer hating ligtheyes won't resolve his trust issues).

 

Overall, plenty of things Kal needs to work on, he's still a very realistic and relatable character.

 

edit: tagging spoiler

Edited June 7, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

He overcame if not his hatred, at least the urge to act on it and is now lighteyes, so he can chose between dealing with his issue or hating himself.

I think he'll soon overcome his unjustified hatred.

 

Kal's far from perfect. For one, he's nearly incapable of taking reasonable responsibility - he either believe himself cursed (like he accused lighteyes for what he has become as if he had no other ways to react), or blames it all on himself (like his fellow slaves deaths), his general over-protectiveness. He has issues with his parents since he didn't have the strength to meet them or even write to them after Tien's death. Kaladin fears he'll lose again the little he has now, has depression, can't go back to normal activities such as going out with friends (he even doesn't think he has other friends than Moash). Kal also has trust issues (which is different from hatred and no longer hating ligtheyes won't resolve his trust issues).

 

Overall, plenty of things Kal needs to work on, he's still a very realistic and relatable character.

 

edit: tagging spoiler

 

I guess you are right. I may be unfair with him. I just think he has been too hardly set into the shoes of the hero lately and it has annoyed me. I get he still have issues. He needs to stop seeing himself as a victim of events and take things into his hands. He needs to see friendship and embrace it when it comes towards him instead of brushing it away.

 

However, I do think Brandon needs to stop having him save the day over and over again. It is getting repetitive. It would be nice, for a change, is Kal ended being the one needing to be save. Just like it would be nice to have Shallan be wrong about something instead if always being smarter than everyone else. That too is slightly annoying.

[Aleksiel]

I guess you are right. I may be unfair with him. I just think he has been too hardly set into the shoes of the hero lately and it has annoyed me. I get he still have issues. He needs to stop seeing himself as a victim of events and take things into his hands. He needs to see friendship and embrace it when it comes towards him instead of brushing it away.

 

However, I do think Brandon needs to stop having him save the day over and over again. It is getting repetitive. It would be nice, for a change, is Kal ended being the one needing to be save. Just like it would be nice to have Shallan be wrong about something instead if always being smarter than everyone else. That too is slightly annoying.

 

I agree about Kal What annoys me about Shallan are denial issues, unfortunately she'll likely struggle with them at least a few more books... I'm not saying I blame her for how she deals with her trauma, just that I don't find it particularly entertaining to read.

 

edit:forgot the 'not' in the last sentence...

Edited June 7, 2014 by Aleksiel

[maxal]

I agree about Kal What annoys me about Shallan are denial issues, unfortunately she'll likely struggle with them at least a few more books... I'm saying I blame her for how she deals with her trauma, just that I don't find it particularly entertaining to read.

 

Don't worry, I understand as I feel pretty much the same way. I am personally routing for more Kohlin family action than Kal & Shallan in the next few books. Any Kohlin. Gee even Elhokar would please me, as long as he follows my expectations and become the "evil Kohlin"

 

I would not mind more Bridge 4 action either, but I just do not want to have more Kal whining and more Shallan disillusioning herself, at least not as much as we had so far.

[Aleksiel]

Don't worry, I understand as I feel pretty much the same way. I am personally routing for more Kohlin family action than Kal & Shallan in the next few books. Any Kohlin. Gee even Elhokar would please me, as long as he follows my expectations and become the "evil Kohlin"

 

I would not mind more Bridge 4 action either, but I just do not want to have more Kal whining and more Shallan disillusioning herself, at least not as much as we had so far.

 

And some more of Gaz and Vathah! Though the latter kind of has Kaladin vibes, but not in so dark hating-all-lighteyes way. I hope there will be more Adolin chapters, can't wait to see how he'll deal with what happened. I generously allow him to whine so long as it is not as much as Kaladin.

Frankly, I am not thrilled of Shallan's brothers arrival. I didn't like them during her flashbacks and they'll only make a mess. I she might as well kill them and be done with her whole family, I wouldn't mind at all.

[Shaggai]

Honor and Odium seem like a very good match to me. A righteous, honorable person can hate strongly oppressors and wrong-doers like how Kaladin hates lighteyes. He takes his hatred for Roshone and Amaram out of context and wrongfully applies it to all lighteyes.

I think Honor would help contain Odium, but what resulted would still be scary as Damnation. Honor isn't necessarily the same as righteousness. Szeth has an extremely strict code of honor, and he would certainly not be a good thing to unleash on the Cosmere. If Honor and Odium fused, what would result would probably be something along the lines of Vengeance. Better than just Odium, certainly, but personally I would stay as far away from it as possible.

[shawnhargreaves]

It would be nice, for a change, is Kal ended being the one needing to be save.

 

That's one of the things I liked about the chasm scene - Kaladin wouldn't have made it out of that without help, and was mature enough to accept that and let Shallan take over.

[maxal]

And some more of Gaz and Vathah! Though the latter kind of has Kaladin vibes, but not in so dark hating-all-lighteyes way. I hope there will be more Adolin chapters, can't wait to see how he'll deal with what happened. I generously allow him to whine so long as it is not as much as Kaladin.

Frankly, I am not thrilled of Shallan's brothers arrival. I didn't like them during her flashbacks and they'll only make a mess. I she might as well kill them and be done with her whole family, I wouldn't mind at all.

 

More Adolin chapters: you are reading my mind :wub: I am sure he won't turn out as whiny as Kaladin, but I do foresee a lot of angst and a lot a recklessness. What's not to love?

 

Actually, I am quite exited about Shallan's brothers arrival. I think they will create an interesting dynamic. I can't wait to see how they will interact with the Kohlins. Besides, I am sort of seeing a friendship blossoming between Wikim and Renarin. I mean, if Adolin can get a best pal in Kal, then I do not see why Renarin could not get one as well.