Psychic Damage To Shard Vessels? [Discuss]

[+Child of Hodor]

The text of RoW makes it sound like Rayse, the Vessel of Odium, was materially damaged by his plans not working out. Like Dalinar and Kaladin not becoming his champion actually hurt him in a way that made his death more likely. That's weird. 

Quote

"He saw that his predecessor had been sliding toward oblivion for a long, long time. Weakened by his battles in the past, then deeply wounded by Honor, this being had been enslaved by the power. Failing to claim Dalinar then losing the tower and Stormblessed, had left the being frail. Vulnerable."  - Taravangian's thoughts after Ascending in RoW Ch. 112

The Shard vs. Shard battles did most of the damage and then being trapped for 7,000+ years probably didn't help. Rayse never embraced all aspects of the Shard. He prefers to be called passion and only says "they call me Odium". Compare that to Wit asking Mr. T who he is and he simply says "Odium". The Shard got frustrated, developing a mind of it's own. It's not been controlled well by Rayse, as Harmony theorized in an epigraph. Right after Dalinar turns him down in OB Rayse rants about "we killed you". I take the "we" to mean the Vessel and the Power since they aren't on the same page all the time and literally are two different minds.  It gets way worse real quick only a year after Dalinar rejects him we see the Power trying to escape Rayse's body throughout RoW. I guess that was the last straw and the power is like "get me away from this loser". 

More generally, it's weird that a Vessel can take damage from "things not working out how you hoped". Which seems heavily implied by the quote. 

Is that what killed Tanavast? He thought the Heralds and the Oathpact would last forever and then the Heralds let the Fused out over and over until 9 of them quit altogether. Is that the damage he took that led to his death, people disappointing him? The coroner's report would say: "fatal case of being wrong"

He was already dying when the Radiants quit according to the Stormfather in OB Ch. 38, did the Recreance finish him off? Or did all this weaken him allowing Odium to finish him off and splinter him? 

I can't decide if I like this idea or not. "My favorite football team missed the playoffs, ow!" *-10HP*

[StanLemon]

4 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

Is that what killed Tanavast? He thought the Heralds and the Oathpact would last forever and then the Heralds let the Fused out over and over until 9 of them quit altogether. Is that the damage he took that led to his death, people disappointing him? The coroner's report would say: "fatal case of being wrong"

He was already dying when the Radiants quit according to the Stormfather in OB Ch. 38, did the Recreance finish him off? Or did all this weaken him allowing Odium to finish him off and splinter him? 

This is a good point, the Heralds breaking the Oathpact might have done to Tanavast what losing Dalinar and Kaladin did to Raise. Maybe they are staking their power on something important, something that would have far reaching consequences and when they fail, they lose control of that bit of power. Honor for instance was most likely the driving force of the Oathpact and when it broke, he probably broke. We don't know much when it comes to Champions but I'm assuming is they get Invested in some way by the Shard. Look at what happened to Kaladin when he killed Lezian, his eyes were glowing oddly and he seemed to be an embodiment of fury.

Edited January 6, 2021 by StanLemon

[Karger he/him]

In this case I see "damage" as a loose term.  Odium's ability to control himself or put another way Rayse's ability to control his shard was sliding.  Remember the shard has its own desires however it is a force without any native intelligence.  It relies on the focused direction of its vessel to get anything done.  The more intelligent and experienced the vessel the better.  As we saw with Vin sometimes working with your shard's intent can actually yield results contrary to what the power is actually trying to do and vice versa(plugging the ashmounts and fighting Ruin).  What went wrong with Odium was that he bet a huge amount on Dalinar falling.  When this did not happen he was left in a bind.  I think that trying to avoid fulfilling a deal of some kind with Dalinar was a lot like the experience of an addict.  The shard by its very nature wanted to fulfill a promise contrary to its own self interest.  With strength of will Odium managed to hold off for a while but he could not avoid the promise this way anymore then an addict could alter the chemical balance in their brain by trying.  The slide was in my view how the shard's immediate needs kept overwriting what it actually wanted until Rayse fell off his game completely.

[+Child of Hodor]

5 hours ago, Karger said:

In this case I see "damage" as a loose term.  Odium's ability to control himself or put another way Rayse's ability to control his shard was sliding.  Remember the shard has its own desires however it is a force without any native intelligence.  It relies on the focused direction of its vessel to get anything done.  The more intelligent and experienced the vessel the better.  As we saw with Vin sometimes working with your shard's intent can actually yield results contrary to what the power is actually trying to do and vice versa(plugging the ashmounts and fighting Ruin).  What went wrong with Odium was that he bet a huge amount on Dalinar falling.  When this did not happen he was left in a bind.  I think that trying to avoid fulfilling a deal of some kind with Dalinar was a lot like the experience of an addict.  The shard by its very nature wanted to fulfill a promise contrary to its own self interest.  With strength of will Odium managed to hold off for a while but he could not avoid the promise this way anymore then an addict could alter the chemical balance in their brain by trying.  The slide was in my view how the shard's immediate needs kept overwriting what it actually wanted until Rayse fell off his game completely.

Yeah, I can see that. The power of Odium has been stuck not being able to do much for thousands of years and it is sick of it. The Shards have an intent or purpose they want to fulfill and when they aren't being used right or used much at all because they are stuck, they get frustrated, develop a mind of their own. 

Tangential Dawnshard novella spoiler:

Spoiler

This is my pet theory on how/why the Dawnshards broke off pre-Shattering. Adonalsium used them to make a bunch of stuff and then stopped using them so much. Their purpose wasn't being fulfilled, they developed minds of their own and went their own way. I know they're not the same as shards, but they are investiture of some sort given the heightening effect on Rysn, similar principles should apply. 

Odium (the power):

[WasingtheWhy]

I think you're probably onto something. The Shards need a Vessel to fully implement their power. But power corrupts, only not in a typical fashion here. The Shards influence their Vessels, but honestly we don't really know to what extent that is. I mean, most of the Vessels have been active for a not fully understood measure of time. After however many millennia with this mantle of power weighing you down, you're bound to change. In Brandon's Cosmere though, the power has rules, and breaking those rules seems very detrimental to the Vessel and the Shard itself.

I don't consider the Shards themselves to have any kind of sentience, personally. Each time (that we have seen, anyway) that a Shard has been without a Vessel, someone has been right there to snatch it up. We don't really know firsthand what happens when the power is just... abandoned. Splintering, one would assume, because a few Shards have been Splintered. The Shards don't seem to act on their own though. It's like a symbiotic relationship. But I can see that if a Shard's nature were ignored or misused, then it would push its Vessel to do what it's nature demanded.

[Honorless he/him]

I interpreted that to simply mean Rayse, like the Fused, was mentally stretched, and I don't mean that in any mystical way, I'm just referring to psychological strain. His self-control started to slip from thousands of years of frustration, that plus his own personality and inability to fully comprehend / acknowledge his Shard's Intent caused his downfall. I do agree that this mental strain manifested itself as weakening him as a Vessel of Odium though, after all it's the mind that drives the power. Nothing psychic, just psychological, which due to how magic is tied to the mundane in the Cosmere looked like some magical effect. But there could be more to it.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Honorless
missing commas