Cultivation told us her plan, but we weren't listening.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

Quote

“It shows you things that can happen, but not the hearts of those who act. How did you dare try something like this? How did you know I’d be up to the challenge?”

“I didn’t,” she said. “I couldn’t. You were heading this direction—all I could do was hope that if you succeeded, my gift would work. That I had changed you into someone who could bear this power with honor.”

"someone who could bear this power with honor."

--- Hear me out... I know the h is lowercase and all... but isn't it possible that she means this literally? It's obvious that she hasn't gained the trust or loyalty of Teravangian yet; but I think she intends to tempt him with the power of Honor now, fully expecting that he will integrate the shard into Odium (using the Rhythm of War somehow, perhaps?) and in so doing, gain a sense of Honor which would make him feel as if he owes her for everything she has done for him... It makes sense that she would have thought this through past killing Rayse.

This new monster of a Shard, War, might just be exactly the tool someone like Cultivation would want in order to get back at those who have wronged her and caused the death of her husband Tanavast.

Thoughts?

Edited December 31, 2020 by Lunu’anaki

[mathiau he/him]

Rayse killed Honour so Taravangian already venged her

My hypothesis for her plan was she'd put Vargo as Odium, Dalinar as a new Honour and Lift as a new Cultivation. But I had ignored the "with honour" part and the fact Vargo is kind of the opposite of someone acting with honour, I feel like Cultivation's setting him up to fail in a way that gives Dalinar both the possibility and the necessity of creating War.

Edited December 31, 2020 by mathiau

[notsawerd]

One of the themes of Stormlight has been how much more capable and dangerous having unbounded power is then having power bounded by oaths, pacts, etc.  The heralds thought that the Radiants needed tighter bounds and Ishar did something to impose limits on their bond.  Honor also limited the Radiants power from reaching its greatest potential.  Kalak and other cognitive shadows are trying to circumvent being bounded to a particular region of physical and cognitive space.  Hoid has more functionality because he remains unbounded.  I think what Cultivation is doing is pruning and grooming mortals who will not be held back by the limitations of her power that are prevented her from her goals.  I assume she has some goal of cultivating the entire cosmere and is creating tools to accomplish that.  Vargo, Dalinar, and Lift are all tools to accomplish this goal.  I see Cultivation as this patient mastermind manipulating others to take on the dangerous and risky parts of her plan.

Additionally, I'm speculating that Shard Avatars are going to be major players in the endgame of the Cosmere.  I think Dalinar will accomplish more as an unbound tool.  His future could go multiple directions.  The one I'm rooting for is that Fused Dalinar will be permabonded to the Stormfather and the Thrill to become an Avatar of War.  I have no idea how that would work but it seems like a great antagonist to me.

[The Sovereign]

2 hours ago, mathiau said:

Rayse killed Odium so Taravangian already venged her

Nightblood killed Rayse so Szeth w/Nightblood already avenged her 

[mathiau he/him]

31 minutes ago, notsawerd said:

Ishar did something to impose limits on their bond.

First, there's a topic about Maya kind of becoming an Oathblade, it seems you've got something to add to that discussion.

31 minutes ago, notsawerd said:

Additionally, I'm speculating that Shard Avatars are going to be major players in the endgame of the Cosmere.  I think Dalinar will accomplish more as an unbound tool.  His future could go multiple directions.  The one I'm rooting for is that Fused Dalinar will be permabonded to the Stormfather and the Thrill to become an Avatar of War.  I have no idea how that would work but it seems like a great antagonist to me.

So. Awesome.

If the ninth Unmade is what's creating the storm, Dalinar will probably be bounded to that one, but SO. Awesome.

3 minutes ago, The Sovereign said:

Nightblood killed Rayse so Szeth w/Nightblood already avenged her 

I meant Honour and I wrote Odium

I can see why you say Nightblood avenged her and not Taravangian (I'd say they both did), but Szeth was not there at all.

[Serack he/him]

3 hours ago, mathiau said:

Rayse killed Honour so Taravangian already venged her

My hypothesis for her plan was she'd put Vargo as Odium, Dalinar as a new Honour and Lift as a new Cultivation. But I had ignored the "with honour" part and the fact Vargo is kind of the opposite of someone acting with honour, I feel like Cultivation's setting him up to fail in a way that gives Dalinar both the possibility and the necessity of creating War.

Well Dalinar certainty has the existing connection to Odium's power...  I've been getting different impression for Dalinar's potential path though... *reads more responses* wow, @notsawerd articulated a lot of it pretty well.

1 hour ago, notsawerd said:

One of the themes of Stormlight has been how much more capable and dangerous having unbounded power is then having power bounded by oaths, pacts, etc.  The heralds thought that the Radiants needed tighter bounds and Ishar did something to impose limits on their bond.  Honor also limited the Radiants power from reaching its greatest potential.  Kalak and other cognitive shadows are trying to circumvent being bounded to a particular region of physical and cognitive space.  Hoid has more functionality because he remains unbounded.  I think what Cultivation is doing is pruning and grooming mortals who will not be held back by the limitations of her power that are prevented her from her goals.  I assume she has some goal of cultivating the entire cosmere and is creating tools to accomplish that.  Vargo, Dalinar, and Lift are all tools to accomplish this goal.  I see Cultivation as this patient mastermind manipulating others to take on the dangerous and risky parts of her plan.

Additionally, I'm speculating that Shard Avatars are going to be major players in the endgame of the Cosmere.  I think Dalinar will accomplish more as an unbound tool.  His future could go multiple directions.  The one I'm rooting for is that Fused Dalinar will be permabonded to the Stormfather and the Thrill to become an Avatar of War.  I have no idea how that would work but it seems like a great antagonist to me.

 

It really does seem to me that the 3 shards of Roshar will become allies in prosecuting war across the Cosmere, and thus Dalinar is pre-destined to fill the roll you are suggesting.  This also implies that he will "lose" the contest in book 5.  It's either that or he will feel like he lost in that he will ascend into a Honor/Odium shard dualship and will feel taking the power of Odium is a loss for him when it comes to his ideals.  

I get the impression that the Nael bond is exclusively 1:1, and thus the only way the Avatar of War thing could happen is that the Thrill and the Stormfather would have to fuse into a single being.  
 

Off topic drivel put in spoiler code to condense it.

Spoiler

By the way, I was really into the MMORPG Everquest back in the day, and the "Avatar of War" was a big deal in their 3rd expansion.  I was on the server where a pair of guilds cleverly used a game mechanic the Dev's didn't foresee to beat him before they even finished out his loot table.  The guilds telegraphed it publicly for weeks that they were going to be able to accomplish it eventually, and the Dev's reacted like spoiled children about it, taking down the game and nerfing the heck out of the mechanic in that portion of the game to the detriment of players who weren't trying to kill their unfinished end game content.  

 

Edited December 31, 2020 by Serack

[Jellomancer]

This is a very interesting theory, even if I agree the others are correct that Rayse has already been eliminated. The thing that makes this interesting is does Cultivation know about Harmony? If so, it does seem possible she might try to "cultivate" Odium into something new by tempting him with the shard of Honor. You are right that this could result in another supershard called War. It looks like a deliberate foreshadowing move to me, even if it plays out differently.

[mathiau he/him]

2 hours ago, Serack said:

I get the impression that the Nael bond is exclusively 1:1, and thus the only way the Avatar of War thing could happen is that the Thrill and the Stormfather would have to fuse into a single being. 

The Nahel bound has been confirmed not to be 1:1

Quote

Questioner

Could someone bond with two spren and wield two swords?

Brandon Sanderson

It is theoretically possible, but the spren aren't going to like it.  So you are not going to see it very often.

Firefight Seattle Public Library signing (Jan. 7, 2015)

It's still possible they'll will be fused together.

Also, do we have any idea why the word "Nahel" is as asymmetric as a five letter word can be? I mean it the Rosaran word for "the bond to divinity" and everything else in the orders is symmetric

25 minutes ago, Jellomancer said:

This is a very interesting theory, even if I agree the others are correct that Rayse has already been eliminated. The thing that makes this interesting is does Cultivation know about Harmony? If so, it does seem possible she might try to "cultivate" Odium into something new by tempting him with the shard of Honor. You are right that this could result in another supershard called War. It looks like a deliberate foreshadowing move to me, even if it plays out differently.

There's basically no way War won't exist at some point in SA indeed

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

So, Cultivation killed Rayse... but we aren't certain that Rayse is working alone. I'm thinking 'ole Koravari might want to go out and take care of one or more other Shards that may have been involved in the death of Honor.

18 hours ago, mathiau said:

My hypothesis for her plan was she'd put Vargo as Odium, Dalinar as a new Honour and Lift as a new Cultivation. But I had ignored the "with honour" part and the fact Vargo is kind of the opposite of someone acting with honour, I feel like Cultivation's setting him up to fail in a way that gives Dalinar both the possibility and the necessity of creating War.

I can see that being her ultimate plan as well... I think that Dalinar and Vargo are each options for her though, what with that whole "cant see into the hearts of men" thing.

16 hours ago, notsawerd said:

Additionally, I'm speculating that Shard Avatars are going to be major players in the endgame of the Cosmere.  I think Dalinar will accomplish more as an unbound tool.  His future could go multiple directions.  The one I'm rooting for is that Fused Dalinar will be permabonded to the Stormfather and the Thrill to become an Avatar of War.  I have no idea how that would work but it seems like a great antagonist to me.

This sounds way cooler than anything I've heard up to this point. Great theory for the cool factor alone!!

12 hours ago, Jellomancer said:

This is a very interesting theory, even if I agree the others are correct that Rayse has already been eliminated. The thing that makes this interesting is does Cultivation know about Harmony? If so, it does seem possible she might try to "cultivate" Odium into something new by tempting him with the shard of Honor. You are right that this could result in another supershard called War. It looks like a deliberate foreshadowing move to me, even if it plays out differently.

I'm assuming that she does know about him, considering how much Harmony talks about reaching out to Shards. It's actually one of the things that sparked this idea in me, alongside the Dalinar War Shard Theories that came along with the Rhythm of War light combination reveal.

11 hours ago, mathiau said:

There's basically no way War won't exist at some point in SA indeed

Yeah. And I think if it happens in the first 5 its going to be Vargo. Dalinar is too expected, and also too respectable of a character at this point to make a good space-age antagonist IMO.

[Brgst13]

1. Why are we assuming Rosharans are antagonists?  I thought this was going to be more "culture clash" than "good vs. bad".

2. I think that Cultivation is foreshadowing how Dalinar can win the contest.  Rayse was clear that he followed the spirit of oaths, not the letter.  Taravangian is scheming to find any way he can to escape the contract he signed, or to find an alternate condition between winning and losing.  What if the way Dalinar can win...is to Bind Taravangian to Honor?  Taravangian is good at passionate and scheming.  He is not good at the direct, face to face conflict of War.  This might set up a conflict between the Shard and its holder that could allow Taravangian to be killed, and Kaladin to take up the Shard of War.

[mathiau he/him]

1 minute ago, Brgst13 said:

1. Why are we assuming Rosharans are antagonists?  I thought this was going to be more "culture clash" than "good vs. bad".

2. I think that Cultivation is foreshadowing how Dalinar can win the contest.  Rayse was clear that he followed the spirit of oaths, not the letter.  Taravangian is scheming to find any way he can to escape the contract he signed, or to find an alternate condition between winning and losing.  What if the way Dalinar can win...is to Bind Taravangian to Honor?  Taravangian is good at passionate and scheming.  He is not good at the direct, face to face conflict of War.  This might set up a conflict between the Shard and its holder that could allow Taravangian to be killed, and Kaladin to take up the Shard of War.

1. People are assuming Taravangian will win the duel and use the Rosharans to conquer the multiverse, which would make them villains

2. I like that theory, if only because it don't take "Dalinar will lose" as a given. Still, the "Kaladin will take up war" at the end seems quite random, there's no reason Dalinar can't survive binding Taravagian and Kaladin don't seems very aligned with Odium and might be too much aligned with Honour if that makes sense -it's likely that like the rhythms most not be exactly the pure ones Honour and Odium to create the Rhythm of War, the intent of Honour and Odium would be slightly shifted before being fused into War.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

1 hour ago, Brgst13 said:

1. Why are we assuming Rosharans are antagonists?  I thought this was going to be more "culture clash" than "good vs. bad".

Besides what mathiau already mentioned,

Mistborn Era 2 Spoilers:

Spoiler

there are also the theories that the fused are invading Scadrial in MB era 2, based on the ending of Bands of Mourning.

 

[mathiau he/him]

18 minutes ago, Lunu’anaki said:

Besides what mathiau already mentioned,

Mistborn Era 2 Spoilers:

  Hide contents

there are also the theories that the fused are invading Scadrial in MB era 2, based on the ending of Bands of Mourning.

 

Spoiler

That make no sense, Era 2 was initially supposed to be set before WoK, and even after that changed Brandon would have liked to publish TLM two or three years ago and it couldn't contain a spoiler meaning essentially "all that deal with Odium thing in RoW? they fail" before RoW was published

 

Edited January 1, 2021 by mathiau

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

@mathiau I agree, I don't think the reports of Red-Eyed demons are fused. I like the "Autonomy is corrupting investiture" line of thought a lot better. But It's not impossible that they are fused, the red-eyed monsters are barely a side-comment in BoM so I wouldn't put it past Brandon to throw something like that in.

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, Lunu’anaki said:

@mathiau I agree, I don't think the reports of Red-Eyed demons are fused. I like the "Autonomy is corrupting investiture" line of thought a lot better. But It's not impossible that they are fused, the red-eyed monsters are barely a side-comment in BoM so I wouldn't put it past Brandon to throw something like that in.

It's also not impossible for Autonomy to have her own version of the fused, Endowment kind of has hers. Actually, since there are entire pantheons of Bavatars it's unlikly there's not at least one with type 2 invested entities

Edited January 1, 2021 by mathiau

[Brgst13]

7 hours ago, mathiau said:

1. People are assuming Taravangian will win the duel and use the Rosharans to conquer the multiverse, which would make them villains

2. I like that theory, if only because it don't take "Dalinar will lose" as a given. Still, the "Kaladin will take up war" at the end seems quite random, there's no reason Dalinar can't survive binding Taravagian and Kaladin don't seems very aligned with Odium and might be too much aligned with Honour if that makes sense -it's likely that like the rhythms most not be exactly the pure ones Honour and Odium to create the Rhythm of War, the intent of Honour and Odium would be slightly shifted before being fused into War.

Kaladin will take up War in my opinion is foreshadowed by several things:

1. Kaladin is the "son of Tanavast" and has connected with Odium in RoW.

2. Dalinar describes him as "our best soldier", suggesting that he is good at War.

3. Kaladin is a total hard-luck case.  He just realized that there are more important things for him than fighting, so becoming the embodiment of War would fit perfectly with his storyline.

[Lunu’anaki he/him]

23 hours ago, Brgst13 said:

3. Kaladin is a total hard-luck case.  He just realized that there are more important things for him than fighting, so becoming the embodiment of War would fit perfectly with his storyline.

I can see your reasoning for everything but this... if anything, wouldn't this be evidence for why Kaladin would not be fit for "War"? Maybe for Odium and Honor together... but I doubt the shard would be called War if Kaladin were the one combining the powers. In fact, we're shown time and time again how much Kaladin hates the consequences of 'war'.

[Hilfandor he/him]

I don't like the idea of a "War" shard. The other shards are more abstract concepts (Harmony, devotion, Mercy, etc). If someone combined Odium with Honor, the combination sounds like it would create Indignation, Vengeance, or Retribution. Conveniently, all attributes that would fit Szeth.

[mathiau he/him]

On 02/01/2021 at 4:57 AM, Brgst13 said:

1. has connected with Odium in RoW.

Feeling dumb right now

On 02/01/2021 at 4:57 AM, Brgst13 said:

2. Dalinar describes him as "our best soldier", suggesting that he is good at War.

3. Kaladin is a total hard-luck case.  He just realized that there are more important things for him than fighting, so becoming the embodiment of War would fit perfectly with his storyline.

Being a good soldier is far from the same as being able to become the embodiment of the concept of War, beside it's likely the fusion of Odium and Honour don't actually make War, war is can be started for honour but it don't stay honourful (see the War of Reckoning)

10 minutes ago, Hilfandor said:

I don't like the idea of a "War" shard. The other shards are more abstract concepts (Harmony, devotion, Mercy, etc). If someone combined Odium with Honor, the combination sounds like it would create Indignation, Vengeance, or Retribution. Conveniently, all attributes that would fit Szeth.

Cultivation don't seems much more abstract to me than War.

Not only there are concept that fit Odium+Honour better, there are also shard combinations that fit War better, Dominion+Ambition for example (or arguably just Dominion)

[Hilfandor he/him]

On 1/1/2021 at 10:57 PM, Brgst13 said:

2. Dalinar describes him as "our best soldier", suggesting that he is good at War.

Remember, "shardbeaders can't hold ground." Kaladin hears the adage and is very confused.  When Adolin explains it, Kal realizes he is much less knowledgeable about war than he thinks he is.  He understands combat and squad tactics, but he is NOT a battlefield general. His understanding of large scale war tactics is limited by lack of training.  

And he isn't a soldier anymore.  He took his retirement.