Issues with Conservation of Investiture

[Ishar]

Background: In the Cosmere it is known that everything is made of investiture, similar to how in the real world everything is made of energy. Again similar to energy, in the Cosmere, Investiture is conserved. I briefly went looking to try to find whether or not investiture is the base Cosmere unit or if energy is (as it is in the real world). I was not able to find anything specifically saying this (although admittedly I didn't search very hard), but I did find a WoB saying that you can go from matter to energy to investiture etc and transfer between the 3. What is unclear is what is the base. In the real world, energy is the base (to the best of our knowledge) In other words, matter is made of very dense energy (e = mc^2). Again, the thing I didn't specifically find was if energy is composed of investiture, or the other way around. The way Conservation of Investiture is discussed implies that energy is composed of investiture, which is kinda difficult conceptualize, as both energy and investiture are already very abstract concepts (equations would be helpful, but the previously mentioned WoB mentioned that those aren't made yet, and probably won't be for some time).

Anyway, on to the actually issues I see with Conservation of Investiture.

1. Nightblood and corruption of investiture

I believe it is said somewhere that Nightblood doesn't destroy investiture because the smoke he leaks is that investiture corrupted. I suppose everybody has questions about Nightblood, so I'll limit this just to the question of what the investiture density of the smoke is? I would imagine it is a lot, since Nightblood consumes a lot of investiture, and I don't particularly remember it ever being noted that he was releasing a particularly large amount of smoke. If anybody has ideas on this, let me know.

2. Atium consumption

Atium is a godmetal, meaning it is composed purely of Ruin's investiture. In Mistborn: Hero of the Ages, Elend and a large group of Atium mistings consumes the gathered hoard of Atium that was being guarded by the Kandra, effectively preventing Ruin/Ati from accessing his power stored in the metal. This all makes sense, until you actually wonder what happened to the presumably massive amounts of investiture stored in that Atium. Seriously, what happened to it? The Atium is gone. Ruin didn't get the power back when it was consumed (otherwise why would he have been upset?). Does anybody know what happened to it? 

3. Anti-light + light reactions

When coming into contact, Anti-light and light creates an explosion. It seems that this is modeled after real-world Matter and Anti-Matter. The issue is that with Matter and Anti-Matter, when they come into contact they are reduced to what Matter/Anti-matter is composed of: Energy. Investiture and Anti-investiture also appear to be reduced to energy. This implies that investiture, like matter, is just a form of energy. This would effectively disprove conservation of investiture. So if anti-light + light reactions are not "destroying" each other, and leaving behind the base construct of energy, what are they doing?

4. Perfect Gemstones

Perfect gemstones are said to hold Stormlight (and one would assume the other lights as well) indefinitely. The King's Drop is the example of this that gets the most screentime to my knowledge. My issue with this is that these gems still glow. In fact, the King's Drop is described as glowing as bright as daylight. If the gemstones aren't leaking stormlight, where is the light coming from? Light is a form of energy (and by extension, investiture), so where is that investiture coming from? Personally, to me this feels like a minor detail that was overlooked in the books, and that the issue here was overlooked while writing the book and was never caught. In other words, this feels like a mistake to me. It is also totally possible that perfect gemstones have properties that allow them to attract more investiture than just the stormlight within them. 

 

Anyway, please let me know your thoughts, ideas, or if there are any relevant WoB's that I missed on these subjects. 

[Bigmikey357 he/him]

From my understanding Investiture is infinite.  The Investiture we've seen used, while massive to mortal beings, is actually a small amount, basically the dregs. When we see that Investiture used, whatever products are left after the magic user has completed the action goes back into the Spiritual Realm where all Investiture originates.

As for the Atium,  Ruin was essentially locked out of the SR by Preservation and only able to access the Investiture he possessed locally.  Those Atium beads would have been the key to unlocking his greater power, and since Preservation was weakened by being held by an incompatible Vessel at the time of the burn he would have been able to do as he wished. Elend however returned that Investiture to the SR and Ati could not access it.

For the Light-antilight reaction, if I understand the mechanics the reaction forcibly removes whatever Investiture lurks within the target and returns it to the original realm (Spiritual). The force of that reaction releases heat. If the content of the Investiture is under pressure (like in a gemheart) then heat plus pressure equals explosion. 

That's all I got for now. 

[Frustration]

@Ishar the energy to investiture conversion is also of intrest to me, I would like to work with you on it if you're willing.

Nightblood is releasing corrupted breath, so I think that the smoke should be compared to the god-kings aura, in which case that is a huge amount of investiture.

To the best of my Understanding the Atium was connected to what was essentially a splinter of Ruin that he did not contain, he could have retreaved the Atium and it's equal power but when burned it returned to the splinter, not him.

Anti-lights are rather new, I expect we'll soon know more.

Perfect gems could be leaking, just at such a slow rate that Rosharans are unable to measure it.

[PeterElricPines he/him]

When Nightblood hits things, they turn into smoke. If that smoke is Investiture, wouldn't that imply the matter is being converted somehow directly into Investiture?

[Brgst13]

1 hour ago, PeterElricPines said:

When Nightblood hits things, they turn into smoke. If that smoke is Investiture, wouldn't that imply the matter is being converted somehow directly into Investiture?

I think this is the result of Nightblood killing in all 3 realms.  He simultaneously destroys the Spiritual aspect and the Cognitive aspect.  When the collection of atoms making up an entity no longer sees itself as that entity, and the Spiritweb is destroyed, there is nothing left to hold the atoms of that entity together.  Since most entities we have seen appear to be carbon-based, the smoke released from this is black from the esoteric release of carbon.  Alternately, the black smoke may be the leftovers from an entity's Spiritweb after encountering Nightblood's corrupted Investiture.

[Elegy he/him]

Regarding the infinite Investiture and Nightblood - according to this WOB, Investiture is finite ... although the nature of the Spiritual Realm makes it intuitive to me that it would be infinite, I don't know:

Quote

chasmfriend's son

Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

chasmfriend's son

So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Very, very slowly.

Holiday signing (Dec. 12, 2015)

 

[+Child of Hodor]

56 minutes ago, Elegy said:

Regarding the infinite Investiture and Nightblood - according to this WOB, Investiture is finite ... although the nature of the Spiritual Realm makes it intuitive to me that it would be infinite, I don't know:

Interesting WoB, he's said pretty much the opposite about NB before. 

Quote

Questioner

Does Nightblood annihilate Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Investiture cannot be created or destroyed. It can only change forms. But, anything more than that is a RAFO.

Oathbringer release party (Nov. 13, 2017)

 

I agree with you, Investiture is basically infinite on a long enough timeline because it eventually recycles to the spiritual realm. I don't think it's infinite in a given moment in time. Time doesn't matter in the spiritual realm, but it does matter in the other two. They can't pull a specific piece of investiture out of the spiritual if that piece is already in use in the physical or cognitive realm at that moment in time. 

Quote

ajrula

A being with a lot of Investiture worldhops, then dies. What happens to the Investiture that was part of them?

Brandon Sanderson

Most likely, it returns to the Spiritual Realm, where all places are one, and where you were is irrelevant.

#SandersonChat Twitter Q&A with Audible.com (Feb. 4, 2016)

Quote

clyguy

Someone tries to Awaken a carrot, and eats it. What happens to the Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

The Investiture will be released into the Spiritual Realm like most Investiture that is destroyed.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

He does say most investiture, maybe Nightblood is an exception. Maybe (MB spoilers):

Spoiler

Atium burned with a magic system accessed through Preservation delays the recycling and is another exception.

I assumed there was a natural delay between it being used and it being available to the Vessel. This may just be my head canon though, I thought he actually said this, but I don't see a WoB quite on point. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8605

Nightblood holds onto a lot of the investiture he eats, it is not destroyed, just mulched and mixed together. When Nightblood is unsheathed and the black smoke spreads out I interpret that as the consumed investiture leaking out. It "evaporates" and goes back to the spiritual realm where it would become available to whatever Shard they were from. That's been my head canon and what Brandon basically said recently: 

Quote

lucagreene18

If Szeth were to have drawn Nightblood immediately after he had consumed Rayse, would he still have drained Szeth's Stormlight? As it said he seemed like he had eaten as much as he could.

Brandon Sanderson

At that point, Nightblood had entered into essentially a food coma... Well, no, the food coma one came when he was drawing from the perpendicularity. I don't think he was in food coma mode at that point. I think that he could still have drawn more at that point, I'd have to go look at exactly what I wrote, if I'd put him into food coma mode or not. It is possible.

This is one of the things I wanted to answer with the book. A lot of people have been theorizing, could Nightblood eat an entire Shard? And indeed, Nightblood could not eat an entire Shard. That is not within his capability. In fact, one of the reasons that he leaks Investiture is: he's too stuffed full of it. There is more Investiture in the sword Nightblood than it can actually hold, it's supersaturated. And it leaks Investiture (that it's done some weird things to). But it is constantly hungry for more and constantly leaks it, but it definitely can get full for a time, and it could not eat an entire Shard.

I did see questions about that from people floating around, and it's something I'd been meaning to get to eventually. Nightblood is definitely relevant to things that are happening in the Cosmere, but it is not as simple as grabbing the sword, sticking it into a Shard, and defeating the Shard, unfortunately. Though, as you see in this book, there are reasons for a Shard to still be afraid of Nightblood. It didn't destroy Odium, but Rayse still really had a bad time.

YouTube Livestream 23 (Dec. 17, 2020)

 

 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Child of Hodor

[Elegy he/him]

1 hour ago, Child of Hodor said:

Interesting WoB, he's said pretty much the opposite about NB before. 

 

I agree with you, Investiture is basically infinite on a long enough timeline because it eventually recycles to the spiritual realm. I don't think it's infinite in a given moment in time. Time doesn't matter in the spiritual realm, but it does matter in the other two. They can't pull a specific piece of investiture out of the spiritual if that piece is already in use in the physical or cognitive realm at that moment in time. 

He does say most investiture, maybe Nightblood is an exception. Maybe (MB spoilers):

  Reveal hidden contents

Atium burned with a magic system accessed through Preservation delays the recycling and is another exception.

I assumed there was a natural delay between it being used and it being available to the Vessel. This may just be my head canon though, I thought he actually said this, but I don't see a WoB quite on point. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/256/#e8605

Nightblood holds onto a lot of the investiture he eats, it is not destroyed, just mulched and mixed together. When Nightblood is unsheathed and the black smoke spreads out I interpret that as the consumed investiture leaking out. It "evaporates" and goes back to the spiritual realm where it would become available to whatever Shard they were from. That's been my head canon and what Brandon basically said recently: 

Just found another WOB where he was asked about it and gave an explanation:

Quote

emailanimal

From a very recent signing, we have this new Word of Brandon...

chasmfriend's son: Is there a finite amount of Investiture?

Brandon: Yes.

chasmfriend's son: So is Nightblood consuming it?

Brandon: Yes. Very, very slowly.

This worries me somewhat because of the following observation.

Nightblood consumes Breath (and other Investiture, but let's limit ourselves to Breath for a second).

Every person on Nalthis is born with one Breath.

Populations tend to grow. Which means that under normal rules of demographics, population of Nalthis should keep increasing.

This in turn means that under normal circumstances the number of people with Breath on Nalthis should be growing.

I can see the following possible explanations to this:

1. Endowment can give Breath to many more people than are currently living on Nalthis. So, the exponential population growth has not yet reached the level at which Endowment's ability to award a Breath to each Nalthis-born human is seriously challenged. When it happens though, things will not go well.

2. There is some built-in mechanism controlling population growth on Nalthis, making certain that the population stays within the limits. Nightblood's consumption of Breath makes these limits smaller, and overall may lead to Endowment's inability to grant Breath to Nalthis-born, but not for a while (essentially, Endowment controls population trends at she sees fit).

Thoughts?

Brandon Sanderson

Just as a point you should understand, the amount of MATTER in the cosmere is finite too. As is the amount of energy.

Worrying that Endowment will run out of Breaths to give is a little like worrying that the amount of carbon on Earth will run out because people keep being born.

uchoo786

So just for clarification, once Nightblood consumes investiture, that investiture gets recycled? That's what I've always assumed. That it enters the cognitive/spiritual realm?

Brandon Sanderson

The investiture he consumes is not gone forever--it's not leaving the system, so to speak.

General Reddit 2015 (Dec. 14, 2015)

So it seems to be a combination of "Investiture is finite", "Nightblood consumes Investiture" and "the Investiture is not lost when it is being consumed by Nightblood".

[Truthwatcher Artifabrian he/him]

21 hours ago, Ishar said:

Perfect Gemstones

Perfect gemstones are said to hold Stormlight (and one would assume the other lights as well) indefinitely. The King's Drop is the example of this that gets the most screentime to my knowledge. My issue with this is that these gems still glow. In fact, the King's Drop is described as glowing as bright as daylight. If the gemstones aren't leaking stormlight, where is the light coming from? Light is a form of energy (and by extension, investiture), so where is that investiture coming from? Personally, to me this feels like a minor detail that was overlooked in the books, and that the issue here was overlooked while writing the book and was never caught. In other words, this feels like a mistake to me. It is also totally possible that perfect gemstones have properties that allow them to attract more investiture than just the stormlight within them. 

I don’t have a wob, but I’m pretty sure the investiture in the gemstone is pulling other investiture from the spiritual realm into light. The amount of stormlight  doesn’t decrease except through leaking. The light comes from other investiture in the spiritual realm.

[Ishar]

 

15 hours ago, Frustration said:

@Ishar the energy to investiture conversion is also of intrest to me, I would like to work with you on it if you're willing.

As much as I would love to, I don't really have time to work on something like this, even though it sounds like a lot of fun.

[Rorzikel]

3 hours ago, Truthwatcher Artifabrian said:

I don’t have a wob, but I’m pretty sure the investiture in the gemstone is pulling other investiture from the spiritual realm into light. The amount of stormlight  doesn’t decrease except through leaking. The light comes from other investiture in the spiritual realm.

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

Shadows of Self Chicago signing (Oct. 12, 2015)

[Truthwatcher Artifabrian he/him]

1 minute ago, MyrmidonOfAchilles said:

Alteroden

With Stormlight, the better the gem is cut, the less Stormlight it leaks, and the longer it holds its charge. If a gem was perfectly cut, on a molecular scale, would it leak Stormlight at all?

Brandon Sanderson

In a theoretical flawless gem, then no it would not.

Alteroden

Would it actually give off light?

Brandon Sanderson

[...] Theoretically no it would not, but it's not what you're thinking...

Alteroden

No no no, that’s not what I’m thinking, I figured that’s something totally different.

Brandon Sanderson

Well, actually, it probably would still give off light, because it's drawing out of the Spiritual Realm. So I’d say it still lights, but it doesn't leak. The leaking is not where the illumination is coming from. The illumination is coming from a direct... It's basically a light bulb screwed into the Spiritual Realm.

Thank you, that’s it.