Azure Mouse Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 [OOC: When you appear to be one of the players currently more interested in who the Elims might be than Autonomy: ] Spoiler
Charcoal Hyena Posted January 15, 2021 Posted January 15, 2021 3 hours ago, Magenta Albatross said: If you had known that your wincon would be confirmed, you could've voted on somebody who you were suspicious of because that would've basically given you a free alignment scan. I was unaware until I asked the Voices of God If I would be informed when I finished my vote win-con This cycle, so I could not have acted in this way. Truly unfortunate that I did not ask, since it may have saved a day.
Quartz Zebra Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 I’ll plop a vote on Vulture for now. I’m going to hold to my suspicion of a single elim voting on Croc, at least for the time being.
Magenta Albatross Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 8 hours ago, Opal Lion said: You also supported the paranoia about Dingo dying last cycle, which to me felt like a potential way for the Elims to split the vote at all I thought that the order in which elims were exe'd didn't matter, so there must have been some reason behind it that benefited them. The rumor about the potential secret Mercy ability was brought up and I thought that might be a potential reason behind the elims' actions. I wasn't intending to split the vote, I was just speculating about what reasoning the elims might have had behing their actions. Even if the vote split a bit, I don't think that enough people would ever have moved from a certain elim train to a lesser suspicion for that to even be viable. Now that Ostrich was exed without a Shard even though there's evidence that they had one earlier, I think that they probably used the extra cycle to pass Odium to another elim. Anybody who scanned someone as a non-Shard last cycle or the night before that should scan that person again and if they've changed into a Shard then they're almost certainly elim. 9 hours ago, Opal Lion said: I also still stand by what I said before, which was that your posts until C5 had basically nothing in them. Basically no opinions, just talk of Mechanics and voting or whatnot. I simply didn't feel like I had any new opinions or information to share. Especially during the cycles when people were looking for the elim of the Shadesmar Eight, I didn't have any private information or PMs with people so any opinions I had about the situation were less informed than those of people who did. I don't share my opinions when they aren't based on anything just for the sake of sharing opinions. 9 hours ago, Opal Lion said: Not a point, but just wanted to mention that I'm pretty sure that Pru gave two random people to Ostrich. I seem to remember them asking for parents but not specifying at all. Good counterpoint, though Octopus is still one of my top suspicions because of how much they've been unmemorable and under the radar until now. I have a trivia competition tomorrow so I won't be able to reply much until late in the evening (PST).
Sapphire Elephant Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Melon Dingo said: Well, I’m glad “Mercy’s secret ability” wasn’t really real. Though, I’m slightly concerned that Autonomy most likely added a vote too me. I would not be opposed to lynching them for lack of a better target, unless of course, they agree to give us any information they have on the Odious ones. "hey hey hey what did i say to yall befow? my vote ish for my wincon only. i have to use double vote on 2 villagersh and 2 elimsh remember? till now my double votesh were hyena (thish wash roleblock, not double vote in n1), gecko, albatroaz n ostrich. thas 2 elimsh, one sushpected elim, an 1 neutral .-. i had ta get sharted on votin on villagersh ya see. n yar a confirmed vil, so i voted on ya. its nat like ya were in any real danger, ish it? an next ill prolly vote on mousey or prudieee or someone. ta complete da 2 villagersh wincon." edit: 8 hours ago, Opal Lion said: If we split the vote enough then maybe you woulda died, but that woulda been on us for somehow being that stupid. "hehehehe woulda been fun though innit? xD Edited January 16, 2021 by Sapphire Elephant
Opal Lion Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 3 minutes ago, Sapphire Elephant said: prudieee TMI read as village pog
Azure Mouse Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 OOC: Current Status of My Reads: Not in any particular order within each tier: VILLAGE - HIGH CONFIDENCE Spoiler Melon Dingo - Ruin, enough said. If Ruin had been Elim or deepwolfing, then we should've seen some effect by now. And the GMs would not have needed to intervene to unrestrict Odium from the Rosharan system D3 if the Elims had Ruin since that just means the restriction is a choice on their part. Ivory Dragonfly - Has generally been helpful, instrumental in scanning Rhino D3 for Investiture. Has been scanned N1 by Opal Lion and discovered to be a Shard, and has also been scanned by Amethyst Scorpion D3, who confirmed that Dragonfly was scanning Rhino. As I currently think it is unlikely the Elims began with more than 3 Shards, I am slightly more willing to upgrade my confidence level in Dragonfly's being a Villager. Opal Lion - Early voter on Crocodile, did not retract. (Also, uh, if Lion is who I think they are - thanks Ellie - then this is something that's consistent with Village!Lion.) Prudence's communication networks have been more helpful for Village than the Elims so far. Pointed out a discrepancy in Ostrich's claims and requested I scan Ostrich. Onxy Flamingo - Could have played in a way damaging to the Village if they were Elim. Did not. VILLAGE - MODERATE CONFIDENCE Spoiler Amethyst Scorpion - Started out a Shardholder (see my current comment on Elim shard count), scanned D2 as using an investiture action. Scanned Ivory DF D3 voluntarily (did not know DF was scanning Rhino), thus providing support for her claims. Generally has been helpful. (Scorp could technically be high confidence, I just am paranoid...Scorp can confirm we have that history of uh, paranoia.) Violet Axolotl - Relatively early voting patterns targeting Elims (Crocodile, Gecko, Rhino), generally helpful for the Village. Has been downgraded one confidence tier due to a current set of contradictory claims with another player. VILLAGE - MILD CONFIDENCE Spoiler Quartz Zebra - Situationally helpful, partly based off their oops award - I don't think the Elim team would have played the way they did if Zebra had been on the team. Coral Swan - Helpful, though voting patterns not very present, which could lead to further confidence downgrading. NULL - NO READ AT ALL Spoiler Magenta Albatross - Going back and forth on Magenta. Need more/deeper analysis at this point. Good point on scanning. Pearl Chameleon - Crouching, had some communications with Iguana and Scorp. Either claiming not to have camped on Ashyn (was on Scadrial C1, C2, so fair) or denying being on Ashyn at all. Either way, still would like to know why and if they were attacked. Scarlet Octopus - Crouching, stayed on Braize without Elim attention. Elims could have decided not to bother with a low activity player, but then Octopus has been staying on the right side of the filter for the moment. ELIM - MILD CONFIDENCE Spoiler Amber Vulture - I take Zebra's point on the voting, and I had a bit of a negative gut read off a PM with Amber Vulture asking about the Shadesmar Eight where they seemed kind of lost as to what the enemy faction even was. It could be a genuine mistake but given Amber claims to have played in Shard games before, I find that a slightly exaggerated level of confusion. Indigo Weasel - Gut, TBH. I was knocked out all day thanks to painkillers and an awful work week. I'll see what I can do. Some thoughts that were raised in the Roshar doc: 1. Elims knew to go for Iguana and Kangaroo. They also knew Kangaroo was a Shard, though I tried to obscure the matter by putting Kangaroo in my non-Shards list. They even knew to place the item/role kill on Iguana (as Honour is already shattered) and to use the Shardic kill on Valor, which splintered the Shard. This suggests to me that they had worked out Kangaroo was Valor. There are two possibilities here: there was either a leak among those who knew Kangaroo was Valor, or the Elims had worked it out. This leads to my second point: 2. I'm still bothered by the lack of a N2 Shardic kill. Octopus was on Braize at that time - if Octopus was an Elim Shard, this would explain why the Elims did not use the Shardic kill. Otherwise they have nothing to lose by just trying. (Note that I've used Ambition's rolescan and found Octopus has a painrial which is consistent with being a Shard with an item.) But there's one other alternative: we know there was a N1 attempted investee kill. No one has come forward to claim it. (P.S. If anyone survived the N1 kill, please claim it.) Otherwise, my suspicion is they hit a Shard. And who else would they hit but Kanga, who comes off looking good from the D1 execution votes? So the Elims minimally knew Kanga was a Shard. My other theory is the lack of a N2 Shardic kill can be explained by the fact that Axl or I were targeted by Elims (likely a scan or vote manip) between N1 to N2. We were both invested in by Valor in that period, meaning anyone targeting us would have been roleblocked and we know of at least two players who were affected by the roleblock. Suppose for whatever reason, one of them tried targeting us and got roleblocked. (It would have to be Odium which is admittedly where this theory flounders.) Suppose also that their target scanner (Gecko, an Elantrian) scanned Kangaroo and found Kangaroo targeting us. It would be an easy inference that Kangaroo was Valor. I'm saying all the Elims would need were really two pieces of information: first, that someone who targeted Axl/Mouse between N1 to N2 got roleblocked for two turns, and second, that Kangaroo targeted Axl N1 and Mouse D2. That's all it takes. What I'm also saying is: if you targeted me and got roleblocked, or targeted Axl and got roleblocked, and it was the distinctive Valor roleblock, please let us know, publicly or via PM, who you contacted about it. It may be possible to see if we can find Elims that way. I ascribe a leak low probability at this point - it is never safe to ignore a leak or to fail to revise confidence, but at some point, you have to be able to work out how an Elim benefits from bussing. Too many busses and the calculus becomes illogical.
Charcoal Hyena Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 It seems that Amber Vulture is on the chopping block, So I'll throw my vote there on this day. I must vote every cycle, after all, So I'll obey what the Mouse has to say.
Azure Mouse Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Charcoal Hyena said: It seems that Amber Vulture is on the chopping block, So I'll throw my vote there on this day. I must vote every cycle, after all, So I'll obey what the Mouse has to say. [OOC: Survival, I know you don't got to worry about the Elims, but people following me makes me nervous I make me nervous, as I'm flying blind until I have the chance to sit down and do some analysis, which is probably gonna be around now. Just sayin' Edited to add: Oh, and if a Village placed the Iguana kill - please let us know, privately or otherwise, because it would change the analysis. I'm of the opinion the Iguana kill was an Elim using a kill item but I get that not everyone agrees. Lion for instance theorises that Iguana was vigkilled.] Edited January 16, 2021 by Azure Mouse
Violet Axolotl Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 3 hours ago, Azure Mouse said: Spoiler Violet Axolotl - Relatively early voting patterns targeting Elims (Crocodile, Gecko, Rhino), generally helpful for the Village. Has been downgraded one confidence tier due to a current set of contradictory claims with another player. Wait wait wait how is that my fault xD Also, Albatross Octopus
Azure Mouse Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 Just now, Violet Axolotl said: Wait wait wait how is that my fault xD [OOC: Not saying it's your fault, but I'm being cautious until the final set of GM clarifications come through. I don't want to mention this in the thread just yet as if it's something minor or a misunderstanding, going Urbain Inquisition on other players isn't great - can confirm, happened to me in LG7 and it was unwarranted friendly fire so it sucked. I'm sitting on it until it's clarified out ]
Quartz Zebra Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 I targeted Axolotl and got Valor roleblocked , but never told anyone until now.
Coral Swan Posted January 16, 2021 Posted January 16, 2021 So if Ostrich had Odium D4 but then didn't have it D5, it means they passed it to someone D4 and would have also Invested in someone, consuming both actions. Assuming the kill on Iguana was an elim with a kill item instead of a villagante or neutralante, that would mean at least three elim attacks, which would require two non-Ostrich elims. With Albatross being Invested in by Preservation N4, that means that Albatross is village, the elims started out with seven players, or an elim who was a non-Shard D4 was Invested in by Odium and Gorilla and then got passed Odium while having a kill item and submitted three different kills. That last option is put out of reach by someone having apparently been attacked twice, so overall going to leave Albatross alone unless six elims are dead and the game isn't over. Between Vulture and Octopus, the latter has been in the Rosharan system, Braize specifically, since the game started and hasn’t obviously been attacked. There was a N3 Odium kill that was unsuccessful that may or may not have targeted Octopus. The only time Octopus has actually used their double vote was on D5 with an obvious Ostrich removal. They went almost the length of two cycles without posting, missing D3 and N3, which is the window where Mercy likely would have been passed for Rhino to have been Mercy by D4 despite being a non-Shard N2, though you don’t need to have posted to submit actions. Octopus showed up at the end of D4 but didn't vote. Vulture most recently marked most of the minimal actives as null and had an elim read on Zebra. Mixed up Octopus and Flamingo and thought that Octopus had voted on Croc D1, which would be an odd thing to misremember if Amber and Scarlet were both evil. Vulture voted for Elephant over Gecko D2, but for Crocodile over Kangaroos D1 which I think is overall village leaning between those two votes.
Violet Axolotl Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) Vote Count: @Scarlet Octopus (3): @Azure Mouse, @Magenta Albatross, @Violet Axolotl @Amber Vulture (2): @Quartz Zebra, @Charcoal Hyena @Magenta Albatross (1): @Opal Lion I'm saddened by the level of inactivity and lack of voting we've seen. It's not over yet, people! We've got to control the exe! Rally up! There's still 23 hours! Zebra! You're voting on someone a neutral also is. How do you feel about that? Lion! You're voting on someone Swan just posted how they're likely good! And you're in the Roshar doc where this was discussed, so I know you know this! Everyone else who hasn't voted, it's not over till it's over! And we all gotta keep voting till the sun rises on an Odium-cleansed cosmere!!!! Edited January 17, 2021 by Violet Axolotl
Turquoise Gorilla Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 Hey all! Fancy having some fun this cycle? I've been informed through several of my delightful contacts (thanks guys) that a certain player is blackmailing both Autonomy and myself. Now, I don't really like blackmail. We saw blackmail in some of the very earliest games, and to my pleasant recollection I remember a real hatred of blackmail and mayoring in the games I played, in years gone by. This all being said, Melon Dingo. I know you're a villager - Azure Mouse sets out the rationale for that well. Autonomy and I are not villagers. We are neutral players. We have, I think, played well to our neutrality this game. In large part, this has been because both teams have treated us well. Blackmail does not incentivise us to cooperate with the village, I'm afraid. Indeed, blackmail has the opposite effect, and rather persuades me at least, that unless repudiated, I should stand up to it and lend my support to the other side. These games are about fun, not about coercing players to act in a particular manner.
Azure Mouse Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 [OOC: I apologise to the Village and to the GMs. Elims, y'all probably breaking out the popcorn, and I don't blame you and I probably should not be doing this given the shellacking we took the night before UP. I've put up with a decent amount of crap across games. I started out in LG5, as the people who've heard me rambling in docs can attest to. I've dealt rather unhappily with the extensive mess of mayoring that early SE was. With players who drifted over from other forums and thought to bring toxicity and aggro play. With competitiveness sharpening at various points of SE. What I'm saying is, I don't do chaotic. And the gods above knows I can't bring myself to play against wincon. I don't do this lightly but I do have one frickin line in the sand. Octopus. Melon Dingo. I don't ask the Village to stand with me and I will fully understand if y'all wish to get me killed this night. I've made sure Valor will go to a trusted Villager because it's not worth losing a daily Lurch. I'll post what analysis I can before the night is up. I do have some principles. We just hit one of them ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ ] 1
Quartz Zebra Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 I'll switch from Vulture to Dingo. I can't say that I'm fond of blackmail at all, and we have enough of a lead to do something like this.
Opal Lion Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) I'm going to switch to Scarlet Octopus. While I don't like what Dingo Is doing, I'm not okay with just voting them out for it. Edited January 17, 2021 by Opal Lion
Ivory Dragonfly Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 I would like to hear Dingo on this matter. The neutrals have been lovely to have in this game. And being mean to them could screw us all over sooo... Dingo. What you thinking. Yeah. Not villagers. But like. They are everyone's buddies is all! and that's okay! do you want the neutrals to guarantee a village loss?? Im sure they could if they were pushed. and uh. mate. ya pushing
Sapphire Elephant Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 "now lads i been tryna keep my cool for a while now. tryna laugh off all the threats and shtuff like that but, to put it mildly, "do this or die" is annoying to say the leasht, n infuriatin if i have ta be honest. if ya were in my posishun, an after the game if ya read the doc of sel d5-d6, youd be angry too. dingo"
Amethyst Scorpion Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ᴀᴅᴅ ɪɴᴛᴇʀᴇꜱᴛɪɴɢ ᴅʏɴᴀᴍɪᴄꜱ ᴛᴏ ɢᴀᴍᴇꜱ, ᴘᴀʀᴛɪᴄᴜʟᴀʀʟʏ ʙᴇᴄᴀᴜꜱᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ᴘᴏꜱꜱɪʙɪʟɪᴛʏ ᴏꜰ ᴡᴏʀᴋɪɴɢ ᴅɪʀᴇᴄᴛʟʏ ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇᴍ. ᴛʜᴇ ᴘᴏꜱꜱɪʙɪʟɪᴛʏ ᴍᴀᴋᴇꜱ ɪᴛ ʜᴀʀᴅ ᴛᴏ ʙᴀʟᴀɴᴄᴇ ʜᴏᴡᴇᴠᴇʀ. ᴜɴʟᴇꜱꜱ ɪɴᴛᴇɴᴅᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴜʟᴇꜱ ᴏʀ ᴅɪꜱᴛʀᴏ, ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴀʟʟ ᴏᴜᴛ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ᴄᴀɴ ɢɪᴠᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ǫᴜɪᴛᴇ ᴀɴ ᴇᴅɢᴇ, ʙᴜᴛ ᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰʟɪᴘ ꜱɪᴅᴇ, ɪꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ʟᴇᴀʀɴ ᴛʜᴇ ɪᴅᴇɴᴛɪᴛʏ ᴏꜰ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ ʟᴇᴀᴋ ᴛʜᴀᴛ, ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ɪꜱ ǫᴜɪᴄᴋʟʏ ʙʀᴏᴋᴇɴ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰᴀᴠᴏᴜʀ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ. ᴛʜᴇ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ɪꜱ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴇᴠᴇʀʏᴏɴᴇ ɴᴇᴇᴅꜱ ᴛᴏ ʙᴜʏ ɪɴᴛᴏ ᴛʜᴇ ɪᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ꜰᴏʀ ɪᴛ ᴛᴏ ᴡᴏʀᴋ. ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ɪꜰ ᴛʜᴇʏ'ᴠᴇ ɢᴏɴᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ꜱɪᴅᴇ? ʏᴇꜱ, ᴅᴇꜰɪɴɪᴛᴇʟʏ. ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ᴋɪʟʟ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ɪꜰ ᴛʜᴇʏ ꜰᴀᴠᴏᴜʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ? ᴄᴇʀᴛᴀɪɴʟʏ. ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ᴄᴀɴ ᴡᴏʀᴋ ʙᴇꜱᴛ ɪꜱ ᴀꜱ ᴀ ʙᴀʟᴀɴᴄɪɴɢ ꜰᴏʀᴄᴇ - ᴀɪᴅɪɴɢ ᴡʜɪᴄʜᴇᴠᴇʀ ꜱɪᴅᴇ ɪꜱ ꜱᴛʀᴜɢʟʟɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ɪɴᴄʀᴇᴀꜱᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ꜱᴛᴀᴋᴇꜱ ᴛʜʀᴏᴜɢʜᴏᴜᴛ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ, ᴡɪᴛʜᴏᴜᴛ (ɪᴅᴇᴀʟʟʏ) ʙᴇɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴇ ᴍᴀɪɴ ᴄᴀᴜꜱᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴇɪᴛʜᴇʀ ꜱɪᴅᴇ'ꜱ ᴠɪᴄᴛᴏʀʏ. ᴏᴛʜᴇʀᴡɪꜱᴇ, ɪᴛ ᴡᴏʀᴋꜱ ɢʀᴇᴀᴛ ᴡʜᴇɴ ɪᴛ ʙᴇᴄᴏᴍᴇꜱ ᴀ ᴄᴏᴍᴘᴇᴛɪᴛɪᴏɴ ᴛᴏ ᴡɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ᴛᴏ ᴛʜᴇɪʀ ꜱɪᴅᴇ, ᴀꜱ ʙᴏᴛʜ ꜱɪᴅᴇꜱ ᴛʀʏ ᴀɴᴅ ᴏᴜᴛʙɪᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ɪɴ ᴀ ᴡᴇɪʀᴅ ꜱᴇᴄʀᴇᴛ ᴀᴜᴄᴛɪᴏɴ ᴀꜱ ɪᴛ ᴡᴇʀᴇ. ᴛʜᴇ ᴋᴇʏ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ɪꜱ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ɪᴛ ɴᴇᴇᴅꜱ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇ ꜰᴜɴ ꜰᴏʀ ᴇᴠᴇʀʏᴏɴᴇ - ᴡᴇ'ʀᴇ ɢᴇɴᴛʟᴇᴍᴀɴ ᴋɪʟʟᴇʀꜱ ᴀꜰᴛᴇʀ ᴀʟʟ. ᴀɴᴅ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʀᴇᴀꜱᴏɴ, ɴᴇɪᴛʜᴇʀ ᴛᴇᴀᴍ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ʙᴇ ᴄᴏᴇʀᴄɪɴɢ ᴀᴄᴛɪᴏɴ ʙʏ ᴛʜʀᴇᴀᴛᴇɴɪɴɢ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴀʟ ᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪᴋᴇ. ᴀᴛ ɴᴏ ᴘᴏɪɴᴛ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴀɴʏ ᴘʟᴀʏᴇʀ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ᴛʜᴇɪʀ ᴀᴄᴛɪᴏɴꜱ ᴅɪᴄᴛᴀᴛᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀꜱ - ɪᴛ'ꜱ ᴛʜᴇ ꜱᴀᴍᴇ ʀᴇᴀꜱᴏɴ ᴡʜʏ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ ᴛʀᴜꜱᴛ ɢʀᴏᴜᴘꜱ ᴀʀᴇ ʜɪɢʜʟʏ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇɴᴛɪᴏᴜꜱ, ᴀꜱ ᴛʜᴇʏ ᴄᴀɴ ᴇɴᴅ ᴜᴘ ɪɴ ᴀ ꜱɪᴍɪʟᴀʀ ᴘᴏꜱɪᴛɪᴏɴ, ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ɢʀᴏᴜᴘ ᴜꜱᴇꜱ ᴛʜᴇɪʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡʟᴇᴅɢᴇ ᴀɴᴅ ʀᴇᴀᴄʜ ᴛᴏ ꜰᴏʀᴄᴇ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ ᴘʟᴀʏᴇʀꜱ ᴛᴏ ᴛᴏᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪɴᴇ ᴏʀ ʙᴇ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇᴅ/ɪɢɴᴏʀᴇᴅ. ʟᴏᴏᴋɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴛᴏ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴡ. ɪ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴏᴘᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʙʏ ʜᴀᴠɪɴɢ ᴀ ᴅɪꜱᴄᴜꜱꜱɪᴏɴ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ᴛʜɪꜱ, ᴡᴇ ᴄᴀɴ ᴅᴇᴄɪᴅᴇ ᴀꜱ ᴀ ɢʀᴏᴜᴘ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴛʜɪꜱ ɪꜱ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴡᴇ ᴀɢʀᴇᴇ ᴏɴ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ʜᴏᴡ ᴛʜᴇꜱᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇꜱ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ʙᴇ ᴘʟᴀʏᴇᴅ, ᴡᴇ ᴄᴀɴ ᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴏɴ ᴀɴᴅ ᴄᴏɴᴛɪɴᴜᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴘʟᴀʏ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ'ꜱ ᴀᴛ ʜᴀɴᴅ. ɪᴛ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʙᴇ ᴍʏ ᴘʀᴇꜰᴇʀᴇɴᴄᴇ ᴛᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴅɪɴɢᴏ ᴏᴠᴇʀ ᴛʜɪꜱ. ʜᴏᴡᴇᴠᴇʀ, ᴘᴇɴᴅɪɴɢ ꜰᴜʀᴛʜᴇʀ ᴅɪꜱᴄᴜꜱꜱɪᴏɴ ᴀɴᴅ ᴅᴇꜱᴄᴀʟᴀᴛɪᴏɴ, ɪ ᴡɪʟʟ ᴘᴜᴛ ᴀ ᴠᴏᴛᴇ ᴅᴏᴡɴ ᴏɴ ᴅɪɴɢᴏ. ᴍʏ ʀᴇᴀᴅɪɴɢ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴏᴏᴍ ᴄᴜʀʀᴇɴᴛʟʏ ɪꜱ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴛʜɪꜱ ᴄᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴡᴇʟʟ ᴄᴏɴᴛɪɴᴜᴇ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇ ᴀɴ ᴏɴɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴅɪꜱᴘᴜᴛᴇ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰᴏʟʟᴏᴡɪɴɢ ᴄʏᴄʟᴇꜱ, ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ᴡɪʟʟ ᴄᴏɴᴛɪɴᴜᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴅɪꜱᴛʀᴀᴄᴛ ᴜꜱ ꜰʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴊᴏʙ ᴀᴛ ʜᴀɴᴅ. ɪꜰ ᴛʜᴀᴛ'ꜱ ɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ᴄᴀꜱᴇ, ᴛʜᴇɴ ɪᴛ'ꜱ ʙᴇᴛᴛᴇʀ ꜰᴏʀ ᴜꜱ ᴛᴏ ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴛʜɪꜱ ʜᴀᴘᴘᴇɴ ɴᴏᴡ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴏɴ. ɪꜰ ᴘᴇᴏᴘʟᴇ ᴀʀᴇ ᴡɪʟʟɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴀɴ ᴀɢʀᴇᴇᴍᴇɴᴛ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴡʜɪʟᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴘᴜꜱʜɪɴɢ ꜰᴏʀ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ᴛᴏ ʙʀᴀᴋᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ᴏʀ ʙᴇ ᴘᴜɴɪꜱʜᴇᴅ ᴡᴀꜱ ꜱᴛᴇᴘᴘɪɴɢ ᴏᴠᴇʀ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪɴᴇ, ᴡᴇ ᴡᴏɴ'ᴛ ᴅᴏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ꜰᴜʀᴛʜᴇʀ, ᴀɴᴅ ꜱᴏ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴀʟ ɪꜱ ᴜɴɴᴇᴄᴇꜱꜱᴀʀʏ, ᴛʜᴇɴ ɪ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʙᴇ ᴇᴀɢᴇʀ ᴛᴏ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴍʏ ᴠᴏᴛᴇ ᴀɴᴅ ʀᴇᴘʟᴀᴄᴇ ɪᴛ ᴏɴ ᴀɴᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ᴘʟᴀʏᴇʀ, ꜱᴜᴄʜ ᴀꜱ ᴏᴄᴛᴏᴘᴜꜱ. Edited January 17, 2021 by Amethyst Scorpion ꜰᴏʀɢᴏᴛ ᴀɴ ɪᴍᴘᴏʀᴛᴀɴᴛ "ɴᴏᴛ". 1
Coral Swan Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 Near the beginning of the game I suggested that the elims telling a neutral to support them or die would be close to blackmail and the easiest solution would be for the neutral to publicly out the elim who made the threat and arrange for protection just in case. I do think that a villager threatening to remove a neutral unless they give up information about the elims falls under the same category of unwarranted threat, though a lesser tier since a single villager typically cannot kill a neutral. I don't know whether removing Dingo would solve this problem long term. Consequences are only useful if they prevent future behavior. @Melon Dingo, I don't know how many games you've played with neutrals before. I've been told that you have played at least two games, but not whether those games had neutrals such as the ones featured in the two most recent games. General practice in recent times, especially since some ugliness in LG 35 particularly that I remember but was not around to see happen live, is that neutrals should not be coerced into working for a particular side with threats of force. I would invite you to publicly discuss your own feelings on the issue.
Amethyst Scorpion Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 ɪ ᴀᴍ ᴀᴄᴛᴜᴀʟʟʏ ɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴍʏ ᴠᴏᴛᴇ ꜰʀᴏᴍ ᴅɪɴɢᴏ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴘʟᴀᴄᴇ ɪᴛ ɴᴏᴡ ᴏɴ ᴏᴄᴛᴏᴘᴜꜱ, ᴀꜱ ɪ ɪɴᴅɪᴄᴀᴛᴇᴅ ɪ ᴡᴀꜱ ʟɪᴋᴇʟʏ ᴛᴏ ᴅᴏ. ɪ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴏᴘᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʜᴀᴠɪɴɢ 7 ᴘʟᴀʏᴇʀꜱ ɪɴ ꜱʜᴏʀᴛ ꜱᴜᴄᴄᴇꜱꜱɪᴏɴ ᴠᴏɪᴄᴇ ᴛʜᴇɪʀ ᴅɪꜱᴄᴏᴍꜰᴏʀᴛ ᴛᴏ ᴠᴀʀʏɪɴɢ ᴅᴇɢʀᴇᴇꜱ ᴀᴛ ᴛʜᴇ ɪᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ ʙʟᴀᴄᴋᴍᴀɪʟɪɴɢ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴅᴇᴍᴏɴꜱᴛʀᴀᴛᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ɪᴛ ɪꜱ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴘᴇᴏᴘʟᴇ ᴄᴀʀᴇ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ꜱᴏᴍᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇxᴘʟᴀɴᴀᴛɪᴏɴꜱ ɢɪᴠᴇ ꜱᴜꜰꜰɪᴄɪᴇɴᴛ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇxᴛ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴡᴇ ᴄᴀɴ ꜱᴛᴇᴘ ᴀᴡᴀʏ ꜰʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ɪꜱꜱᴜᴇ. ɪ ʜᴏᴘᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʙʏ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠɪɴɢ ᴀ ᴠᴏᴛᴇ ɴᴏᴡ, ᴡᴇ ᴄᴀɴ ʙᴇɢɪɴ ᴛᴏ ᴅᴇꜱᴄᴀʟᴀᴛᴇ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴀᴛ ʟᴇᴀꜱᴛ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴇʀᴇ ʙᴇɪɴɢ ᴏɴᴇ ʟᴇꜱꜱ ᴠᴏᴛᴇ, ɪꜰ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀꜱ ᴄʜᴏᴏꜱᴇ ᴛᴏ ꜰᴏʟʟᴏᴡ ꜱᴜɪᴛ ᴏɴᴄᴇ ɪ ᴀᴍ ᴏꜰꜰʟɪɴᴇ, ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴍʏ ᴠᴏᴛᴇ ʀᴇᴍᴀɪɴɪɴɢ ᴅᴏᴇꜱ ɴᴏᴛ ᴄᴀᴜꜱᴇ ᴀɴ ɪꜱꜱᴜᴇ.
Coral Swan Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 Adding on that the reasoning for avoiding threatening neutrals and similarly any other strategy that involves coercing players to follow another player's instruction is that these decrease game enjoyment for everyone involved and is not worth any strategic advantage that may be gained. By the personal nature of a threat, this is a more strict and extreme version of the game not being fun when all you're doing is following along with what a PM circle is doing.
Azure Mouse Posted January 17, 2021 Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Amethyst Scorpion said: ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ᴀᴅᴅ ɪɴᴛᴇʀᴇꜱᴛɪɴɢ ᴅʏɴᴀᴍɪᴄꜱ ᴛᴏ ɢᴀᴍᴇꜱ, ᴘᴀʀᴛɪᴄᴜʟᴀʀʟʏ ʙᴇᴄᴀᴜꜱᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ᴘᴏꜱꜱɪʙɪʟɪᴛʏ ᴏꜰ ᴡᴏʀᴋɪɴɢ ᴅɪʀᴇᴄᴛʟʏ ᴡɪᴛʜ ᴛʜᴇᴍ. ᴛʜᴇ ᴘᴏꜱꜱɪʙɪʟɪᴛʏ ᴍᴀᴋᴇꜱ ɪᴛ ʜᴀʀᴅ ᴛᴏ ʙᴀʟᴀɴᴄᴇ ʜᴏᴡᴇᴠᴇʀ. ᴜɴʟᴇꜱꜱ ɪɴᴛᴇɴᴅᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴜʟᴇꜱ ᴏʀ ᴅɪꜱᴛʀᴏ, ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴀʟʟ ᴏᴜᴛ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ᴄᴀɴ ɢɪᴠᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ǫᴜɪᴛᴇ ᴀɴ ᴇᴅɢᴇ, ʙᴜᴛ ᴏɴ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰʟɪᴘ ꜱɪᴅᴇ, ɪꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ʟᴇᴀʀɴ ᴛʜᴇ ɪᴅᴇɴᴛɪᴛʏ ᴏꜰ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴛʜᴇɴ ʟᴇᴀᴋ ᴛʜᴀᴛ, ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ɪꜱ ǫᴜɪᴄᴋʟʏ ʙʀᴏᴋᴇɴ ɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰᴀᴠᴏᴜʀ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ. ᴛʜᴇ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ɪꜱ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴇᴠᴇʀʏᴏɴᴇ ɴᴇᴇᴅꜱ ᴛᴏ ʙᴜʏ ɪɴᴛᴏ ᴛʜᴇ ɪᴅᴇᴀ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ꜰᴏʀ ɪᴛ ᴛᴏ ᴡᴏʀᴋ. ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ɪꜰ ᴛʜᴇʏ'ᴠᴇ ɢᴏɴᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ꜱɪᴅᴇ? ʏᴇꜱ, ᴅᴇꜰɪɴɪᴛᴇʟʏ. ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴇʟɪᴍꜱ ᴋɪʟʟ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ɪꜰ ᴛʜᴇʏ ꜰᴀᴠᴏᴜʀ ᴛʜᴇ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ? ᴄᴇʀᴛᴀɪɴʟʏ. ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ᴄᴀɴ ᴡᴏʀᴋ ʙᴇꜱᴛ ɪꜱ ᴀꜱ ᴀ ʙᴀʟᴀɴᴄɪɴɢ ꜰᴏʀᴄᴇ - ᴀɪᴅɪɴɢ ᴡʜɪᴄʜᴇᴠᴇʀ ꜱɪᴅᴇ ɪꜱ ꜱᴛʀᴜɢʟʟɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ɪɴᴄʀᴇᴀꜱᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ꜱᴛᴀᴋᴇꜱ ᴛʜʀᴏᴜɢʜᴏᴜᴛ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ, ᴡɪᴛʜᴏᴜᴛ (ɪᴅᴇᴀʟʟʏ) ʙᴇɪɴɢ ᴛʜᴇ ᴍᴀɪɴ ᴄᴀᴜꜱᴇ ᴏꜰ ᴇɪᴛʜᴇʀ ꜱɪᴅᴇ'ꜱ ᴠɪᴄᴛᴏʀʏ. ᴏᴛʜᴇʀᴡɪꜱᴇ, ɪᴛ ᴡᴏʀᴋꜱ ɢʀᴇᴀᴛ ᴡʜᴇɴ ɪᴛ ʙᴇᴄᴏᴍᴇꜱ ᴀ ᴄᴏᴍᴘᴇᴛɪᴛɪᴏɴ ᴛᴏ ᴡɪɴ ᴛʜᴇ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ᴛᴏ ᴛʜᴇɪʀ ꜱɪᴅᴇ, ᴀꜱ ʙᴏᴛʜ ꜱɪᴅᴇꜱ ᴛʀʏ ᴀɴᴅ ᴏᴜᴛʙɪᴅ ᴛʜᴇ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ɪɴ ᴀ ᴡᴇɪʀᴅ ꜱᴇᴄʀᴇᴛ ᴀᴜᴄᴛɪᴏɴ ᴀꜱ ɪᴛ ᴡᴇʀᴇ. ᴛʜᴇ ᴋᴇʏ ᴛʜɪɴɢ ɪꜱ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ɪᴛ ɴᴇᴇᴅꜱ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇ ꜰᴜɴ ꜰᴏʀ ᴇᴠᴇʀʏᴏɴᴇ - ᴡᴇ'ʀᴇ ɢᴇɴᴛʟᴇᴍᴀɴ ᴋɪʟʟᴇʀꜱ ᴀꜰᴛᴇʀ ᴀʟʟ. ᴀɴᴅ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʀᴇᴀꜱᴏɴ, ɴᴇɪᴛʜᴇʀ ᴛᴇᴀᴍ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ʙᴇ ᴄᴏᴇʀᴄɪɴɢ ᴀᴄᴛɪᴏɴ ʙʏ ᴛʜʀᴇᴀᴛᴇɴɪɴɢ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴀʟ ᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪᴋᴇ. ᴀᴛ ɴᴏ ᴘᴏɪɴᴛ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴀɴʏ ᴘʟᴀʏᴇʀ ʜᴀᴠᴇ ᴛʜᴇɪʀ ᴀᴄᴛɪᴏɴꜱ ᴅɪᴄᴛᴀᴛᴇᴅ ʙʏ ᴏᴛʜᴇʀꜱ - ɪᴛ'ꜱ ᴛʜᴇ ꜱᴀᴍᴇ ʀᴇᴀꜱᴏɴ ᴡʜʏ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ ᴛʀᴜꜱᴛ ɢʀᴏᴜᴘꜱ ᴀʀᴇ ʜɪɢʜʟʏ ᴄᴏɴᴛᴇɴᴛɪᴏᴜꜱ, ᴀꜱ ᴛʜᴇʏ ᴄᴀɴ ᴇɴᴅ ᴜᴘ ɪɴ ᴀ ꜱɪᴍɪʟᴀʀ ᴘᴏꜱɪᴛɪᴏɴ, ᴡʜᴇʀᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ɢʀᴏᴜᴘ ᴜꜱᴇꜱ ᴛʜᴇɪʀ ᴋɴᴏᴡʟᴇᴅɢᴇ ᴀɴᴅ ʀᴇᴀᴄʜ ᴛᴏ ꜰᴏʀᴄᴇ ᴠɪʟʟᴀɢᴇ ᴘʟᴀʏᴇʀꜱ ᴛᴏ ᴛᴏᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪɴᴇ ᴏʀ ʙᴇ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇᴅ/ɪɢɴᴏʀᴇᴅ. ʟᴏᴏᴋɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ᴡʜᴀᴛ ᴛᴏ ᴅᴏ ɴᴏᴡ. ɪ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʜᴏᴘᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ʙʏ ʜᴀᴠɪɴɢ ᴀ ᴅɪꜱᴄᴜꜱꜱɪᴏɴ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ᴛʜɪꜱ, ᴡᴇ ᴄᴀɴ ᴅᴇᴄɪᴅᴇ ᴀꜱ ᴀ ɢʀᴏᴜᴘ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴛʜɪꜱ ɪꜱ ꜱᴏᴍᴇᴛʜɪɴɢ ᴡᴇ ᴀɢʀᴇᴇ ᴏɴ ᴀʙᴏᴜᴛ ʜᴏᴡ ᴛʜᴇꜱᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇꜱ ꜱʜᴏᴜʟᴅ ʙᴇ ᴘʟᴀʏᴇᴅ, ᴡᴇ ᴄᴀɴ ᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴏɴ ᴀɴᴅ ᴄᴏɴᴛɪɴᴜᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴘʟᴀʏ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ'ꜱ ᴀᴛ ʜᴀɴᴅ. ɪᴛ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʙᴇ ᴍʏ ᴘʀᴇꜰᴇʀᴇɴᴄᴇ ᴛᴏ ɴᴏᴛ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴅɪɴɢᴏ ᴏᴠᴇʀ ᴛʜɪꜱ. ʜᴏᴡᴇᴠᴇʀ, ᴘᴇɴᴅɪɴɢ ꜰᴜʀᴛʜᴇʀ ᴅɪꜱᴄᴜꜱꜱɪᴏɴ ᴀɴᴅ ᴅᴇꜱᴄᴀʟᴀᴛɪᴏɴ, ɪ ᴡɪʟʟ ᴘᴜᴛ ᴀ ᴠᴏᴛᴇ ᴅᴏᴡɴ ᴏɴ ᴅɪɴɢᴏ. ᴍʏ ʀᴇᴀᴅɪɴɢ ᴏꜰ ᴛʜᴇ ʀᴏᴏᴍ ᴄᴜʀʀᴇɴᴛʟʏ ɪꜱ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴛʜɪꜱ ᴄᴏᴜʟᴅ ᴡᴇʟʟ ᴄᴏɴᴛɪɴᴜᴇ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇ ᴀɴ ᴏɴɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴅɪꜱᴘᴜᴛᴇ ꜰᴏʀ ᴛʜᴇ ꜰᴏʟʟᴏᴡɪɴɢ ᴄʏᴄʟᴇꜱ, ᴡʜɪᴄʜ ᴡɪʟʟ ᴄᴏɴᴛɪɴᴜᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴅɪꜱᴛʀᴀᴄᴛ ᴜꜱ ꜰʀᴏᴍ ᴛʜᴇ ᴊᴏʙ ᴀᴛ ʜᴀɴᴅ. ɪꜰ ᴛʜᴀᴛ'ꜱ ɢᴏɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ʙᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ᴄᴀꜱᴇ, ᴛʜᴇɴ ɪᴛ'ꜱ ʙᴇᴛᴛᴇʀ ꜰᴏʀ ᴜꜱ ᴛᴏ ᴍᴀᴋᴇ ᴛʜɪꜱ ʜᴀᴘᴘᴇɴ ɴᴏᴡ, ᴀɴᴅ ᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴏɴ. ɪꜰ ᴘᴇᴏᴘʟᴇ ᴀʀᴇ ᴡɪʟʟɪɴɢ ᴛᴏ ᴄᴏᴍᴇ ᴛᴏ ᴀɴ ᴀɢʀᴇᴇᴍᴇɴᴛ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴡʜɪʟᴇ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ᴘᴜꜱʜɪɴɢ ꜰᴏʀ ɴᴇᴜᴛʀᴀʟꜱ ᴛᴏ ʙʀᴀᴋᴇ ᴛʜᴇ ɢᴀᴍᴇ ᴏʀ ʙᴇ ᴘᴜɴɪꜱʜᴇᴅ ᴡᴀꜱ ꜱᴛᴇᴘᴘɪɴɢ ᴏᴠᴇʀ ᴛʜᴇ ʟɪɴᴇ, ᴡᴇ ᴡᴏɴ'ᴛ ᴅᴏ ᴛʜᴀᴛ ꜰᴜʀᴛʜᴇʀ, ᴀɴᴅ ꜱᴏ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴀʟ ɪꜱ ᴜɴɴᴇᴄᴇꜱꜱᴀʀʏ, ᴛʜᴇɴ ɪ ᴡᴏᴜʟᴅ ʙᴇ ᴇᴀɢᴇʀ ᴛᴏ ʀᴇᴍᴏᴠᴇ ᴍʏ ᴠᴏᴛᴇ ᴀɴᴅ ʀᴇᴘʟᴀᴄᴇ ɪᴛ ᴏɴ ᴀɴᴏᴛʜᴇʀ ᴘʟᴀʏᴇʀ, ꜱᴜᴄʜ ᴀꜱ ᴏᴄᴛᴏᴘᴜꜱ. [OOC: I'm with Scorp on this. My vote is a 'this is not okay, and I have some principles that override my usual wincon commitments' vote. But Scorp isn't wrong to point out that whether in this game or outside of it, a community conversation is called for. And my vote may be raising the temperature unnecessarily. I'm not going to say 'Paradox of Tolerance' because quite frankly Karl Popper was a good philosopher of science but he took off his philosopher hat in that book and wrote a polemic and I get exasperated everytime someone cites it. It's like taking medical advice from an English major. I'm just going to point out several things: A. There is a fundamental difference between communal norms and player norms. If I started vigkilling players who didn't play the way I thought they should be playing, that's one thing. I could be rightfully accused of powertripping in that scenario. This is one battle we've historically fought hard to win. Communal norms - as I have always said - need to be negotiated. They need to secure broad buy-in. And they need to be enforced. Should they be enforced in this way? That's a fair conversation to be had. But at some level, communal norms also need to be maintained. Norms that are agreed upon but not maintained are toothless and do not remain norms for very long. We do this by complying with the norms. We do this by condemning, verbally, norm-flouters. We do this by persuading, or trying to talk players into changing their ways. And yes, in the most extreme cases, we have historically vigkilled or otherwise ostracised/ignored players with norm-flouting tactics. We do this as a community, because the mods can't force on us their vision of what SE should be. B. I've asked Gorilla this, and El and Wilson, and Scorp in the Roshar doc. Do we have the right? I'm just going to come out and say that the vote as it stands is very much along the lines of player age. I'm not going to out others (despite Mr Oops Award joining in) but I see faces who more or less started playing maybe a year later from when I started joining in on this vote. Mr Oops Award started two games after me, I believe. Axl and Lion are vehemently against this and I can understand why. They are perfectly reasonable to disagree. I feel that as a player who occasionally returns to the games, such a returning player-heavy vote...do we still have the right? Or is this a sign that communal norms are going to shift again? I don't know. But I do wonder. Maybe we're holding the community back by saying "This is not the SE we remember." Maybe the community is different now and that's all there is to it. I know some would disagree with me but as a player who plays in maybe 2-3 SE games max in a year and who could leave the community behind without any loss to myself or SE, it feels like I have substantially less skin in the game than many of the others. C. To me, the common thread between communal rejection of blackmailing and of mayoring is the element of coercion. My bro Wyrm has been on the receiving end of this: give up your life or we will shrek you. Do this or else. Mayoring also locks out players who aren't compliant. I understand there's a whole Festschrift in the dead doc right now about a lot of things in this game. D. I've written whole manifestos in the past about why I like to be a regular Villager. About how your vote is your voice and your power. How anyone can say anything but votes speak louder than words because they are a concrete manifestation of where your priorities lie. I think the one thing I'm just going to say, which is rather blunt and undiplomatic is: why does Dingo deserve the benefit of the doubt over Elephant? Yes, we could wait after the game to have this conversation. (In fact, I do think we need to have this conversation. Or as I keep saying: Mouse (2015-2021) "y'all need to have a community conversation.") But I also see that as saying that it's perfectly okay for Elephant to put up with this until the end of the game, or until Elephant finishes their wincon. Perhaps Elephant doesn't deserve the benefit of the doubt over Dingo, either, but if this is a 'listen here' conversation/vote, then I'd just say that my vote/opinion goes in the direction most likely to immediately address the problem. I don't regard this as being exclusive of an eventual conversation which this game has evidenced is long overdue.] Edited January 17, 2021 by Azure Mouse
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