Navani: where does she go from here?

[Lemiltock]

44 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

If it had only been Kaladin, the Sibling would have been fully unmade, the tower would be held by Odium's forces, every Radiant in the tower would be as good as dead anyway. 

You mean the sibling wasnt talking to Kaladin and Dabid and neither of them managed to give those secrets to the unmade? Without Navani Kaladin showef up to the node the fused found, and the likleyhood of the fused finding the underwater node would be slim if not none, so yes Kaladin would have saved the day without Navani, and likley easier as he could heal better becore his 4th oath.

44 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

She definitely could have refused. She could have carried water and fomented some sort of resistance from there. Then Vyre comes in and there's no Raboniel or anti-voidlight tone to protect her. There's no bond with the Sibling to save the tower. So you're right. Brandon could have completely rewritten the story to have Navani succeed from some other place in some other way where Raboniel and Odium's forces don't get any access to anti-Stormlight. However, in this story, her going off to carry water would have resulted in Vyre killing her, Raboniel unmaking the Sibling, the enemy controlling the tower, and every Radiant within being as good as dead, anyway.

Or someone else could have bonded the sibling, and without Navani, they dont find the last node and the sibling isnt unmade. Your using the consequences of Navanis actions to justify her further actions, each step taking her further in the wrong direction.

44 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

There was no point in the process where it was actually a good idea for Navani to leave Raboniel's side. There was no point in the process where Navani could have stopped developing things and/or hide them from Raboniel. She tried that on several occasions in several different ways. You didn't answer my challenge here, you simply restated the point that Navani gave things to the enemy when she didn't have to. The successful defense of the tower depended on Navani getting anti-Voidlight to clear the Voidlight from the Sibling, and getting and keeping Raboniel on her side. BTW: Raboniel could have unmade the Sibling at any time after finding the underwater node. She held off because Navani of Navani's work. Part of the reason Navani kept working with Raboniel was to keep Raboniel on her side. Raboniel wouldn't have gotten the developments from Navani had she destroyed the Sibling and rendered the defense of the tower useless.

I litterally pointed out several points amd refuted she needed raboniels help. First Gavilar made antivoid light without a fused, second Navani had access to Rlaine who can hear the pure tones of roshar and couple with the sibling who can give towerlight, all the knowledge that Raboniel gave Navani. Assuming she doesnt want to use these resources, she could have stopped at warlight, Raboniel thought antilight impossible by this point, or she could have just not written down her note on how to make it. So in closing, she did not need Raboniel to make anti void light nor was she required to leave her a litteral instruction manual on how to make said anti light.

44 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

There was no way out for Navani and the tower. None. Raboniel held all of the cards the whole time. Navani did the best she could and implemented just enough safeguards and got just enough trust out of the Sibling to make it work out in the end. There really was no other way this could have went down that was better for the good guys.

No she didnt, she did the best for her, which is the crux of the problem. The best she could do is helpping her people, not furthering her scholarship. If Navani had done nothing at a it would have been better for the good guys. Anti stormlight is a crazy weapon, not to mention she lead the fused to the most hidden node.

44 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

The real question for the anti-Navani crowd here, I guess, is do the ends justify the means. Should Navani have let her tenuous hold on Raboniel go, stop her development of anything for fear the enemy gets it, because it was the right thing to do? Sure. That would have been the right thing to do. Everyone would have lost, but Navani would have done the right thing.

No the ends dont justify the means, doing evil for some promise of good is almost never right or ethical. And again, not everyone losr, Navani did alot of wrong, for some personal gain. She wanted knowledge and her people and the tower be damned. If Navani hadnt cooperated, had resisted, sure maybr she dies, maybe she achieves nothing but she also doesnt make things significantly worse for her people or Kaladin

44 minutes ago, Leuthie said:

So you win. Navani made the wrong choice.

Yes she did make several wrong choices, but this would be allieved (and still could in book 5) if she address' this. But so fsr she hasnt owned her screw ups and poor decisions, nor has anyone else expressed it. She made selfish choices and it cost the good guys dearly, and she hasnt even owned up. Yes it was a hard situation to be in, and the fused likley would have manipulated her eventually, but she put up almost no fight (slowing down is barley a fight) and shows no remorse for any of her actions or the consequences of them.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

Navani's path seems pretty straight forward from here. She needs to leverage what she learned about anti-Investiture against her and Dalinar's Bondsmith powers in order to injure Odium baldly enough that Cultivation can kill and shatter him.

[Leuthie]

On 12/11/2020 at 4:50 PM, Lemiltock said:

Yes she did make several wrong choices, but this would be allieved (and still could in book 5) if she address' this. But so fsr she hasnt owned her screw ups and poor decisions, nor has anyone else expressed it. She made selfish choices and it cost the good guys dearly, and she hasnt even owned up. Yes it was a hard situation to be in, and the fused likley would have manipulated her eventually, but she put up almost no fight (slowing down is barley a fight) and shows no remorse for any of her actions or the consequences of them.

Owning up and remorse? Does this need to be a public flogging? Actual or symbolic? Can she be part of the team finding solutions to the problem, or should the forces of good lock her away from future developments for fear of her making worse weapons for the enemy? There are so many ways Sanderson can take the Navani contrition storyline and all of them will add so much to the story! I hope he strings her up naked by her ankles in the Skybreaker city in Shadesmar so spren can each get a lash in.

I think there will be some reckoning in book 5 as she reports to everyone about the enemy's new weapons (and the good guy's new weapons). I would hope there are groups that hate Navani for it and we see some of the politics behind that. I would also hope she doesn't get completely ostracized for it. I would also hope the Sibling stands up for her, as it seems the Sibling is not only understanding of it, but also realizes that spren need the consequences that anti-Stormlight provide. In fact, a big part of book 5 might actually be the restoring of the Connection lost by capturing BAM yet spren still having to live with permanent consequences of their actions. That lack of consequences might actually be the major reason behind the Recreance in the first place, as Heralds and Radiants realize that restrictions were placed on human use of surges, but the lack of consequences for spren was resulting in bad peacetime decision making.

There are a lot of stories to be had in this new development, the worst of which will be publicly flogging Navani for it. But to each their own.

[Lemiltock]

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Owning up and remorse? Does this need to be a public flogging? Actual or symbolic? Can she be part of the team finding solutions to the problem, or should the forces of good lock her away from future developments for fear of her making worse weapons for the enemy? There are so many ways Sanderson can take the Navani contrition storyline and all of them will add so much to the story! I hope he strings her up naked by her ankles in the Skybreaker city in Shadesmar so spren can each get a lash in.

Im unsure if your trying to be witty here or not. In either case, no I dont think extreme punishment, however, she did work with a fused, and give them a  weapon. Dalinar was upset at Kaldin for not killing a fused when it saved a soldiers life. She doesnt need to be removed, or even lose her bond, but that also doesnt mean i want it swept under the rug and ahh it was tough so well give her a pass.

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I think there will be some reckoning in book 5 as she reports to everyone about the enemy's new weapons (and the good guy's new weapons). I would hope there are groups that hate Navani for it and we see some of the politics behind that. I would also hope she doesn't get completely ostracized for it. I would also hope the Sibling stands up for her, as it seems the Sibling is not only understanding of it, but also realizes that spren need the consequences that anti-Stormlight provide. In fact, a big part of book 5 might actually be the restoring of the Connection lost by capturing BAM yet spren still having to live with permanent consequences of their actions. That lack of consequences might actually be the major reason behind the Recreance in the first place, as Heralds and Radiants realize that restrictions were placed on human use of surges, but the lack of consequences for spren was resulting in bad peacetime decision making.

I do like this, and agree I dont want her just shut out, nor can I see many (or any) of the main cast doing thing. I think Brandon will easily do it justice, and it will be a part of the political aspect of the final book (or at least a part of it).

I also agree from a story perspective that the spren needed more consequence, and its an interesting take on the recreance.

3 hours ago, Leuthie said:

There are a lot of stories to be had in this new development, the worst of which will be publicly flogging Navani for it. But to each their own.

I agree, I see some hating her, some defending her and some not caring. The morally grey choices, and their consequences are part of what makes stories both interesting and realistic. She was in a tough situation, and she may have caused just as much harm not making bad decisions, but she did, and there are consequences to those. She doesnt seem to have the ability, yet, to look back on her choices and reconsile that she did some bad stuff and to do better next time, so im hoping someone or a group of someones takes issue with it and forces her to confront her decision making

[Leuthie]

20 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

She doesnt seem to have the ability, yet, to look back on her choices and reconsile that she did some bad stuff and to do better next time, so im hoping someone or a group of someones takes issue with it and forces her to confront her decision making

Maybe Brandon didn't spend enough time on it or highlight it enough, but page 1098 and 1099 in the hardcover (second viewpoint of chapter 102) contain some pretty good reactions to her failures.

Spoiler

No, she thought, staring at the ceiling. No, don't you dare take that distinction for yourself. If she'd been a scholar, she'd have understood the implications of her work.

She was a child playing dress-up again. A farmer could stumble across a new plant in the wilderness. Did that make him a botanist?

She eventually forced herself up to do the only thing she was certain she couldn't ruin. She found ink and paper in the wreckage of the room, then knelt and began to paint prayers...

She goes on to think about her fear and her hope that there is someone who has a plan:

Spoiler

Someone had known anti-Voidlight was possible.

Someone had known Navani would create it first.

Someone had seen all this, planned for it, and put her here. She had to believe that. She had to believe, therefore, that there was a way out.

Now you can interpret this section however you wish. Those who hate Navani and her arc here are going to interpret "way out" as a way to deny the horrible things she made. I see it as her looking for a way to fix it, to attone for it. She didn't understand what she was making when she made it. She was just following the science (to use our words). She only realized afterward that Raboniel and the enemy could use her developments to kill spren.

After Moash comes to kill Navani and Raboniel turns him away for a different task (a consequence of Navani developing the relationship with her enemy in an effort to find some way to win), Navani again asks for guidance, for something from the Almighty. Then she finds the dagger with the rest of the anti-Voidlight that she uses to finally kill Raboniel later. From this point on, she simply does the next thing she can think of to atone for what she did wrong. To find some way out. She sets the trap for Raboniel, sings the anti-Voidlight tone to show the Sibling that the Voidlight can be removed, that the tones of Roshar are still there, she convinces the Sibling to bond her, she clears out Moash and the rest of the Fused and sets the Sibling and the tower right; she sings the rhythms with Raboniel, a final wish for a worthy adversary that just wants the war to end, then kills her which the Sibling calls a kindness.

I believe Sanderson is saving the fallout from Navani's developments for the beginning of the next book. However, Navani did look back on her choices and felt guilt and regret while still in mortal danger from Moash and the rest of the Fused. While the Sibling was still being attacked and she still needed to find a way out. She made these reflections in the heat of the moment and used them as motivation to continue to push forward.

I guess I see these moments of regret before the final battles as enough penance. Especially considering the final outcome, her words with the Sibling, her "kindness" to Raboniel (and the Sibling recognizing the significance and agreeing with Navani on it) I'm sure there will be further issues, but those will be Navani working with others to find solutions to the problems she created: Fabrials and captured spren, anti-Stormlight and dead spren (which the Sibling doesn't hate her for, so why should we?), and the chaos of the tower.

[Karger he/him]

I am not sure that we can entirely judge Navani for anything except potentially negligence.  None of us know the exact outcomes of our actions and if ignorance itself was a crime I don't know who I would punish first.

[+Oltux72 he/him]

On 12.12.2020 at 6:30 AM, SwordNimiForPresident said:

Navani's path seems pretty straight forward from here. She needs to leverage what she learned about anti-Investiture against her and Dalinar's Bondsmith powers in order to injure Odium baldly enough that Cultivation can kill and shatter him.

What makes you sure enough about Cultivation being willing to do that to bet a world on it? They had a friendly little chat if I may remind you.

[SwordNimiForPresident the sword/that sword]

48 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

What makes you sure enough about Cultivation being willing to do that to bet a world on it? They had a friendly little chat if I may remind you.

Because it’s all part of the plan.

[Lemiltock]

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

Maybe Brandon didn't spend enough time on it or highlight it enough, but page 1098 and 1099 in the hardcover (second viewpoint of chapter 102) contain some pretty good reactions to her failures.

  Hide contents

No, she thought, staring at the ceiling. No, don't you dare take that distinction for yourself. If she'd been a scholar, she'd have understood the implications of her work.

She was a child playing dress-up again. A farmer could stumble across a new plant in the wilderness. Did that make him a botanist?

She eventually forced herself up to do the only thing she was certain she couldn't ruin. She found ink and paper in the wreckage of the room, then knelt and began to paint prayers...

I do perhaps underplay this, but it is still a passing thought at her failures, and it took several for her to reflect. I do, however, like that she didnt just roll over, but a short thought on how shed done wrong is far from acceptance, which is shown further in the next quote.

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

She goes on to think about her fear and her hope that there is someone who has a plan:

  Hide contents

Someone had known anti-Voidlight was possible.

Someone had known Navani would create it first.

Someone had seen all this, planned for it, and put her here. She had to believe that. She had to believe, therefore, that there was a way out.

Now you can interpret this section however you wish. Those who hate Navani and her arc here are going to interpret "way out" as a way to deny the horrible things she made. I see it as her looking for a way to fix it, to attone for it. She didn't understand what she was making when she made it. She was just following the science (to use our words). She only realized afterward that Raboniel and the enemy could use her developments to kill spren.

This quote here i have more issue with, shes rationalising her mistakes, someone had a plan, someone made me do this, theres a gos with a plan amd therefor i bear no responsibility for my actions and there must be more good than bad. This is not her taking any responsibility, at best shes being naive at best shes openly lieing to herself  in either case shes shirking her responsibility by assuming someone has a plan and that plan included her working with Odium.

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

After Moash comes to kill Navani and Raboniel turns him away for a different task (a consequence of Navani developing the relationship with her enemy in an effort to find some way to win), Navani again asks for guidance, for something from the Almighty. Then she finds the dagger with the rest of the anti-Voidlight that she uses to finally kill Raboniel later. From this point on, she simply does the next thing she can think of to atone for what she did wrong. To find some way out. She sets the trap for Raboniel, sings the anti-Voidlight tone to show the Sibling that the Voidlight can be removed, that the tones of Roshar are still there, she convinces the Sibling to bond her, she clears out Moash and the rest of the Fused and sets the Sibling and the tower right; she sings the rhythms with Raboniel, a final wish for a worthy adversary that just wants the war to end, then kills her which the Sibling calls a kindness.

Yes I think she did the right thing from here onwards, but the alternatives for her here are roll over or do something, this shows her worth to be a radiant, but not really an attonment for what shes done.

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I believe Sanderson is saving the fallout from Navani's developments for the beginning of the next book. However, Navani did look back on her choices and felt guilt and regret while still in mortal danger from Moash and the rest of the Fused. While the Sibling was still being attacked and she still needed to find a way out. She made these reflections in the heat of the moment and used them as motivation to continue to push forward.

I hope there is, I dont want her ostracized or thrown out, but I expect some people will take issue with both the working with a fused, and the results of said work. I can also see some blame for teft and phendorana from bridge 4/windrunners, maybe along the lines of it being mentioned. I also see some people either not caring, or forgiving (see dalinar), and im hoping Jasnah at least in private calls her out in it.

2 hours ago, Leuthie said:

I guess I see these moments of regret before the final battles as enough penance. Especially considering the final outcome, her words with the Sibling, her "kindness" to Raboniel (and the Sibling recognizing the significance and agreeing with Navani on it) I'm sure there will be further issues, but those will be Navani working with others to find solutions to the problems she created: Fabrials and captured spren, anti-Stormlight and dead spren (which the Sibling doesn't hate her for, so why should we?), and the chaos of the tower.

Firstly, the sibling not hating her has no bearing on her moral choices or if anyone else can hold a grudge to her, teft didnt hate moash in the end, should we all just forgive him? But thats an asside I think she can resolve whats happened, and my issue was not that she cant come back, to use dalinar again who came bacl from burning a city, but that she needs to come back, because she made poor choices do to ego and selfishness that have significant consequences.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I am not sure that we can entirely judge Navani for anything except potentially negligence.  None of us know the exact outcomes of our actions and if ignorance itself was a crime I don't know who I would punish first.

Ignorance is no excuse, either ethically or legally. She may not have know exactly, but she knowling worked with the enemy, one who had already shown she was craftier and smarter than navani, and yet she persisted. If she had come up with that research seperatly, and raboniel had come across it during their captivity thats different, but she chose to work with the fused, on something she knew was dangerous (it blew up for her scholars) with little regard for the consequences or even keeping it a secret (hiding the plate under another isnt really an attempt, especially considering she also wrote down her entire process). Her working with the fused for selfish reasons is as much an issue as the results of that work, neither of which she can truely claim ignorance of even if that was a real explination. 

[Karger he/him]

7 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Ignorance is no excuse, either ethically or legally

Yes it is.  In both depending on circumstances.

7 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

She may not have know exactly, but she knowling worked with the enemy, one who had already shown she was craftier and smarter than navani, and yet she persisted

Except the discovery of antivoidlight did not happen during their brief collaboration.  It happened when...

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

she had come up with that research seperatly, and raboniel had come across it during their captivity thats different

 

9 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

but she chose to work with the fused, on something she knew was dangerous (it blew up for her scholars) with little regard for the consequences or even keeping it a secret

She was working on warlight not antivoidlight.  Different technologies at different times.

10 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

(hiding the plate under another isnt really an attempt, especially considering she also wrote down her entire process).

She also hid her notes and had no way of avoiding preforming the test without Raboneil.  Her goal was to create a weapon that could kill fused.

11 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Her working with the fused for selfish reasons

I do not think I would characterize Navani's choice as selfish.  Raboneil even stated that working under her would give Navani a chance to spy on the work and sneak it to her husband.

[Lemiltock]

Just now, Karger said:

Yes it is.  In both depending on circumstances.

Quite litterly the law states ignornace is not an excuss, to pretend otherwise is a fallacy. Nor can she claim ignorance, a driver while not knowing they would kill someone, can still kill someone and is still responsible for that action. If she waa tricked/manipulated or a child she could claim this, but she wasnt/isnt.

Just now, Karger said:

Except the discovery of antivoidlight did not happen during their brief collaboration.  It happened when...

 

She was working on warlight not antivoidlight.  Different technologies at different times.

So she didnt do this in a place where she had collaborated with the fussed, nor where she was under watch by said fused?

Just now, Karger said:

She also hid her notes and had no way of avoiding preforming the test without Raboneil.  Her goal was to create a weapon that could kill fused.

Ohhh she hid them, in a closed room while under watch, good idea, it took the fused how many seconds to find the notes? If she had never written it down, she would never have them stollen. She wrote down the steps while under watch from the fused, she may as well have instructed them her self.

Just now, Karger said:

I do not think I would characterize Navani's choice as selfish.  Raboneil even stated that working under her would give Navani a chance to spy on the work and sneak it to her husband.

She wasnt swayed by more knowledge? To impress a great scholar and show she was as smart. She did, and what did Navani focus on, was it desire to give her husband the knowledge that drove her to so feverishly complete her work and show it off to the fused?no it was quite clearly yer ego. And even on top of that, she didnt stop when at first she found out she was being lied to, no she doubled down, not once but twice. She made several choices, not one was for anyone but herself. (While captive  pre she did order people to surrender to save lives and was a good call)

[Karger he/him]

24 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Quite litterly the law states ignornace is not an excuss, to pretend otherwise is a fallacy

That is not what we are talking about.  Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law but leaving your door unlocked generally does not mean you are complicit in a murder that happened because the perpetrator could enter your building.

26 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Nor can she claim ignorance, a driver while not knowing they would kill someone, can still kill someone and is still responsible for that action. If she waa tricked/manipulated or a child she could claim this, but she wasnt/isnt

A driver who has no way to know that a given action might result in a death is not complicit.  Also Navani's relative age compared to Raboneil does make her a child.

27 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

So she didnt do this in a place where she had collaborated with the fussed, nor where she was under watch by said fused?

She did this while trying to find a way to avoid collaborating with the fused while captured by the fused.  She had previously helped Raboneil create warlight but that was a different set of experiments.

29 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Ohhh she hid them, in a closed room while under watch, good idea, it took the fused how many seconds to find the notes? If she had never written it down, she would never have them stollen

You completely misunderstand.  If Raboniel had not walked in at exactly that moment Navani would have cracked the gemstone containing her new anti-voidlight and then smuggled her notes out of the tower.  No one would have known until Dalinar's armies started killing fused.  Baring that Navani could have burnt her notes and waited for an opportunity to escape with the knowledge.  Either way working without notes is not a practical solution.  You could argue that she is being dangerously arrogant or lacks caution but this does not mean her actions are unethical.  I personally don't care what a person feels at any given time only what they are doing. 

34 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

She wasnt swayed by more knowledge? To impress a great scholar and show she was as smart. She did, and what did Navani focus on, was it desire to give her husband the knowledge that drove her to so feverishly complete her work and show it off to the fused?no

I will not deny that Navani's motives were complex and that her desire for Raboneil's approval was real.  Raboneil worked carefully to compromise Navani's judgement after all and was successfully at exploiting her feelings of inadequacy.  This does not change that Navani's goals were not unethical nor were her methods(at least in my view).

37 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

And even on top of that, she didnt stop when at first she found out she was being lied to, no she doubled down, not once but twice

Navani did not actually believe that Raboneil would leave her the tower nor did she ever trust her.  The fact that she got played is a testament to Raboneil's skill with people not an indictment of Navani's conduct.

[Lemiltock]

1 minute ago, Karger said:

That is not what we are talking about.  Ignorance of the law is not an excuse for breaking the law but leaving your door unlocked generally does not mean you are complicit in a murder that happened because the perpetrator could enter your building.

She didnt leave her door open though, she was acting recless, a crime wasnt commited sgainst her  she commited a crime, while not know it would be a crime. This is not an excuse

1 minute ago, Karger said:

A driver who has no way to know that a given action might result in a death is not complicit.  Also Navani's relative age compared to Raboneil does make her a child.

They are still legally and morally liable for the damage they caused, intent or no. Its not about relative age  its about the ability to understamd consequences, this is why in most places its illegal to imprison people under a certain age  they are of an age where their brain has not developed this ability  navani is well past 25 her brain has fully developed and as such her relative age plays no part in her ability to make rational decisions.

1 minute ago, Karger said:

She did this while trying to find a way to avoid collaborating with the fused while captured by the fused.  She had previously helped Raboneil create warlight but that was a different set of experiments.

Ahh so working under their watch is avoiding colaboration? She if intentionally or not worked with a fussed watching over her shoulder. All her previous work had been taken, why would this not when she was still going through the fused for material and working with a guard. 

1 minute ago, Karger said:

You completely misunderstand.  If Raboniel had not walked in at exactly that moment Navani would have cracked the gemstone containing her new anti-voidlight and then smuggled her notes out of the tower.  No one would have known until Dalinar's armies started killing fused.  Baring that Navani could have burnt her notes and waited for an opportunity to escape with the knowledge.  Either way working without notes is not a practical solution.  You could argue that she is being dangerously arrogant or lacks caution but this does not mean her actions are unethical.  I personally don't care what a person feels at any given time only what they are doing. 

You mean, if raboniel had not been continually looking over her experimental request? Or listening to the reports from the guard at the door? It wasnt a chance encounter, she was still being watched, still asking the fused for equipment etc etc.

1 minute ago, Karger said:

I will not deny that Navani's motives were complex and that her desire for Raboneil's approval was real.  Raboneil worked carefully to compromise Navani's judgement after all and was successfully at exploiting her feelings of inadequacy.  This does not change that Navani's goals were not unethical nor were her methods(at least in my view).

Her actions, under different circumstances where not unethical thats true. However where and when she undertook those actions was unethical, as was the outcome of them. Afterall good intentions pave the road to hell.

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Navani did not actually believe that Raboneil would leave her the tower nor did she ever trust her.  The fact that she got played is a testament to Raboneil's skill with people not an indictment of Navani's conduct.

So navani didnt believe the altruistic reasons given to work with the fused and she did anyway? Either she was ignorant and a fool, or she was not. If she didnt trust raboniel she worked with her for her ego, if she did trust her she was a fool. In either case she activley worked with an immortal enemy, with the results being the equivalent of a nuke. 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

You mean, if raboniel had not been continually looking over her experimental request? Or listening to the reports from the guard at the door? It wasnt a chance encounter, she was still being watched, still asking the fused for equipment etc etc.

You really should reread the chapters where anti-light is discovered.  Navani's initial motivation and situation...

Quote

Raboneil made good on her promise to leave Navani to her own designs...

Perhaps Navani should do menial labor... Except...  What if Navani was thinking too small in trying to save the tower?  What if there were a way to end the war once and for all?  What if Navani could find a way to destroy Odium?

Raboneil previously indicated that killing Odium was the reason she wanted antilight.  Navani had no idea at the time that it could destroy fused or that a variant of her reserch could destroy spren.  After making some progress they have this exchange

Quote

“You’d actually kill him?” Navani asked. “If you had the chance?”

Raboniel hummed, but looked away. That humming is … embarrassment? Navani thought. She recognizes she’s lied to me, at least by implication. She doesn’t truly want to kill Odium.

Navani realizes her motivations have been compromised after this exchange and resolves to try and find any other solution.

Quote

This is why I worked so hard these last few days, Navani admitted to herself, sitting at the desk. To prove myself to her. But … what good was that if it didn’t lead to peace?

but then...

Quote

The music of the plates had caused the entire desktop to vibrate. And that had made the sand vibrate—and it had therefore made patterns on her desktop. One pattern on the right, a different on the left, and a third where the two mixed.

So she works and...

Quote

She did all of this in a way that—best she could—hid what she was doing from her watching guard. Hunched over her workspace, she was relatively certain the Regal there wouldn’t be able to tell she’d made a breakthrough.

Raboniel enters her workspace and Navani makes several attempts to deflect her.  She asks about Axi and lies about her research.  However Raboneil discovers and plays the plate.

Quote

Navani kept her face impassive. Well, that answered one question. She’d wondered if the person playing the note needed the proper Intent to eject the Voidlight, but it seemed that creating the plate to align to her hummed tones was enough.

Navani had no way of knowing if the plate would retain her intent.  Remember it sounds exactly the same as Odium's tone. 

Quote

Careful, Navani, she reminded herself. She had to do her best to keep this knowledge from the enemy. There was a way, a plan she’d been making should Raboniel intrude as she had. A possible path to maintaining the secrets of anti-Voidlight.

With this setup and the unfortunate arrival of the Theylen vacuum tube Raboneil has everything she needs to replicate Navani's work regardless of her cooperation.  However Navani does realize this offers her a chance to kill Raboneil.  It almost works too.  Unfortunately Navani had not realized that this would work for spren as well.  She was just a step too slow.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

So navani didnt believe the altruistic reasons given to work with the fused and she did anyway?

Yes.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Either she was ignorant and a fool, or she was not

I have to call BS.  The idea that you can't con a smart person is ludicrous. 

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

. If she didnt trust raboniel she worked with her for her ego

She worked for her at least initially because she wanted to keep an eye on and foil Raboneil's plans.  Raboneil's communication skills, praise, and compassion did muddy the waters a bit but that is very much a false dichotomy.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Her actions, under different circumstances where not unethical thats true. However where and when she undertook those actions was unethical, as was the outcome of them. Afterall good intentions pave the road to hell.

I don't believe that.  If we were all responsible for the bad outcomes of our good intentions we would be in soooooo much trouble.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

In either case she activley worked with an immortal enemy, with the results being the equivalent of a nuke. 

Is the existence of nukes a bad thing?  That is a complicated question that neither of us has the authority to answer.  I am personally grateful they exist as I could very well not if they did not.  I also think you are rather deliberately ignoring Navani's acts of sabotage and the fact that Raboneil is now dead.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Karger

[Lemiltock]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

You really should reread the chapters where anti-light is discovered.  Navani's initial motivation and situation...

Raboneil previously indicated that killing Odium was the reason she wanted antilight.  Navani had no idea at the time that it could destroy fused or that a variant of her reserch could destroy spren.  After making some progress they have this exchange

So she created something that can kill a god, for an enemy and didnt think ohhh you kmow what are little pieces of gods, spren. She was tok cought up in being praised to worry about the consequences of her actions.

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Navani realizes her motivations have been compromised after this exchange and resolves to try and find any other solution.

but then...

So she works and...

Raboniel enters her workspace and Navani makes several attempts to deflect her.  She asks about Axi and lies about her research.  However Raboneil discovers and plays the plate.

She also wonderfully, after being tricked several times, writes down the steps to make anti light.

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Navani had no way of knowing if the plate would retain her intent.  Remember it sounds exactly the same as Odium's tone. 

With this setup and the unfortunate arrival of the Theylen vacuum tube Raboneil has everything she needs to replicate Navani's work regardless of her cooperation.  Unfortunately Navani had not realized that this would work for spren as well.  She was just a step too slow.

You mean, she thought i could kill the entire shard but not the little pieces of one, this is willful ignorance at best.

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yes.

Ahhh so you see the problem your just choosing to ignore it.

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Total BS.  The idea that you can't con a smart person is ludicrous. 

I dont think she was conned, if she had been id be more sympathetic, she knew raboniel was lieing, she had a gaurd 24/7 and was shown multiple times to have been watched and listened closly and yet she still thought she could hide anything, this is why she is an utter fool. Raboniel could have conned her, but she didnt need to, she tempted her with knowledge and Navani selfishly jumpped at the chance, she worked with the enemy to further her own wants there was zero altruism in her intentions or actions.

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

She worked for her at least initially because she wanted to keep an eye on and foil Raboneil's plans.  Raboneil's communication skills, praise, and compassion did muddy the waters a bit but that is very much a false dichotomy.

She could have done this by working on lift fabrials or perfrcting her flying ship, she worked on the anti light because she was intrigued and trying to peove her self. They are the reasons presented, you even acknoledge that navani didnt believe the altruistic reasons. So no this is mot a false dichotomy, she made choices based on her desire to look smart with the promise of knowledge.

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I don't believe that.  If we were all responsible for the bad outcomes of our good intentions we would be in soooooo much trouble.

You are responsible for your bad outcomes, i dont know what world you live in. Quite often people with good intentions will hurt people, the consequemces are not always "punishments" but you hurt a friend unintentinally, and they still hurt, you still bear that responsibility. Intentions mean little when compaired to your actions. This is also ignoring the fact that Navani had no altruistic intentions, she wanted to prove herself, show she was great and smart, the promise of knowledge sold her. So are her intentions even really good?

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

Is the existence of nukes a bad thing?  That is a complicated question that neither of us has the authority to answer.  I am personally grateful they exist as I could very well not if they did not.  I also think you are rather deliberately ignoring Navani's acts of sabotage and the fact that Raboneil is now dead.

yes the existance of nukes is a horrible thing  that takes no authority to be able to answer, im sure the people of heroshima are super greatful they exist. But that is seperate, the crux of the issue is she worked for the enemy, with no altruistic intentions, and the result of that work was a devistating weapon. A good dead does not cancel out a bad dead, and her little acts of sabotage pale in comparison to her litterally writing down the method for creating antilight while under close observation after raboniel showing her she was untrustworthy and under close watch (they listened to her whispers) on several instances.

 

Also i dont think Navani is fool because she got bested, shes a fool because she didnt learn from her mistakes, and the first time was at best risky. 

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

So she created something that can kill a god, for an enemy

She created something that can kill there god.  For an enemy.  Given that Honor is dead and Navani probably does not know much about Cultivation other then that she is in hiding creating disorder in enemy ranks could be beneficial.

8 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

and didnt think ohhh you kmow what are little pieces of gods, spren

This is common knowledge to us but not really to them.  Syl jokes about it but that does not mean that Navani puts it together instantly.  Remember this is very new subject matter for rosharan scholars.  They know even less then we do, have had less time to get use to knowing, and on top of it all have to unlearn previous theories.

10 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

She was to caught up in being praised to worry about the consequences of her actions.

Untrue.  She was very worried.  She was too caught up in trying to end a war she thought she had lost from an impossible situation while being gas lighted by a seven thousand year old manipulator.

12 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

She also wonderfully, after being tricked several times, writes down the steps to make anti light.

She takes notes.  More or less all scholars do this.  It is exceptionally hard to organize your thinking without them.  I imagine she had a contingency to burn her notes if given enoug time but in between all she could do is what she did.  Hide them.

14 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

You mean, she thought i could kill the entire shard but not the little pieces of one, this is willful ignorance at best.

This is common knowledge to us but not really to them.

14 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Ahhh so you see the problem your just choosing to ignore it.

Navani knew that Raboneil's lies were lies.  Her reasons for collaborating with her were simply different.  I see no problem.

15 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

and was shown multiple times to have been watched and listened closly and yet she still thought she could hide anything

Her conversations with the Sibling were being watched closely.  Her research was not. 

17 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

and yet she still thought she could hide anything, this is why she is an utter fool

She had a several step security system. 

1. Don't get caught.  Standard methods.  Do your work out of sight of the guard's direct view, work on several different problems at the same time so what you are doing is less clear, hide notes on secret project along with the two materials that actually matter(the plates).
2. During conversations deflect attention from secret project.
3. If discovered possible the plate does not retain intent or at least that the difference is not noticed by investigator.
4. If discovered and plate detected possible Raboneil does not figure out a method of making antivoidlight with it.
5. If discovered and plate detected and method(vacuum) detected cooperate knowing that Raboneil will want to test the new theory(this is know because Navani would do the same thing and Navani understands Raboneil).  Leave room for a second while she blows herself up.  Raboneil won't realize this is a possibility anymore then I did initially.  I only know because some people did it by accident.  After she dies reenter room and destroy or abscond with notes.  The confusion caused by her death may allow me to make an escape using my prepared fabrail weapons.
6. If Raboneil survives hope she can't do anything too dangerous with this technology.

I challenge you to do better on short notice.

27 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Raboniel could have conned her, but she didnt need to, she tempted her with knowledge and Navani selfishly jumpped at the chance

Raboneil got Navani to work for her without knowing the consequence or purpose of her actions.  I call that a con.  You are of course entitled to read a character as you wish but calling Navani's motives selfish seems unfair.  We all have exploitable patterns of thought that leave us vulnerable to manipulation.  The fact that Raboniel managed to appeal to them is not Navani's fault.

30 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

she worked with the enemy to further her own wants there was zero altruism in her intentions or actions.

So you are saying Navani's only motivation was curiosity and a desire to prove herself?  Both of which are normal and healthy human behaviors?  Seems too me that her only crime in that context is overestimating herself.  Navani may be Oppenheimer but it seems pretty unfair to cast her as Mr Sinister.

34 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

She could have done this by working on lift fabrials or perfrcting her flying ship she worked on the anti light because she was intrigued and trying to peove her self

You are conflating two different decisions by Navani. She initially worked with her because she wanted to spy and sabotage.  The result was warlight.  Afterward she decided to work on anti-voidlight because she thought she was out of options.  I have already admitted that Navani has deep seated insecurities and a desire to prove herself.  This may have played a role or even compromised her judgement.  I personally think she was working because she thought she had no other choices.

39 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

. So no this is mot a false dichotomy, she made choices based on her desire to look smart with the promise of knowledge.

1 hour ago, Karger said:

. If she didnt trust raboniel she worked with her for her ego

This is absolutely a false dichotomy.  Navani could have been working with Raboneil because she thought Honor wanted her to.  There are more then two explanations to her behavior at any given time.

41 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

You are responsible for your bad outcomes, i dont know what world you live in. Quite often people with good intentions will hurt people, the consequemces are not always "punishments" but you hurt a friend unintentinally, and they still hurt, you still bear that responsibility.

That is very much not what is happening here.  Sure doing something unintentionally does not mitigate the harm done.  Doing something that when combined with factors beyond your control creates harm is not something you can realistically blame people for.  Otherwise I could lay all the suffering done by a hurricane on the fact you breath.

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Intentions mean little when compaired to your actions.

 

46 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

yes the existance of nukes is a horrible thing  that takes no authority to be able to answer, im sure the people of heroshima are super greatful they exist.

As are (unsarcastically) the estimated millions of American troops and even japoniease civilians who might have been harmed if they could not get them to work.  The vast majority of people in WW2 on either side did not die from nukes.  Even the vast majority of civilians who died in cities.  I am not excusing their use I am just saying that I will not accept anyone who believes they can tell me weather them existing is good or bad. 

50 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

But that is seperate, the crux of the issue is she worked for the enemy, with no altruistic intentions, and the result of that work was a devistating weapon

Quote

“There is only one way to look at things until someone shows us how to look at them with different eyes.”

The quote seems apropos.  I would say she worked, while under intense pressure, to find a way to defeat an unstoppable enemy, and the result is a devastating weapon whose effects and ethical implications are beyond me.  I actually sympathize with Raboneil a bit.  It seems only fair that everyone play for keeps this time around.

53 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Also i dont think Navani is fool because she got bested, shes a fool because she didnt learn from her mistakes, and the first time was at best risky. 

What actual mistakes did Navani make?  I am talking about real mistakes not "this turned out badly" or "she should have known better."  I would say that since we don't know the full effects antivoidlight's discovery will have on Rosharan history we can't say yet if working on it was a mistake.  Also since Gavilar managed to make some it is not as if we know it would stay secret otherwise.  I agree she probably should have figured out the potential dangers of antivoidlight earlier.  The only real mistake I can think of is believing the sibling's communication was secure.  Navani has become too used to spanreeds. Never believe a message is secure is a rule that she would know if they did not have them. 

53 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

observation after raboniel showing her she was untrustworthy and under close watch (they listened to her whispers) on several instances.

You seriously need a reread.  They spied on Navani's conversations with the sibling.  The sibling assured Navani that the communication method was secure.  They did not keep her under 24/7 surveillance.

[Lemiltock]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

She created something that can kill there god.  For an enemy.  Given that Honor is dead and Navani probably does not know much about Cultivation other then that she is in hiding creating disorder in enemy ranks could be beneficial.

So she thinks it can kill a god, the greatest most powerful thing in existance amd doesnt think it will damage anything else or have any major blowback. Afterall its only a god why would it hurt anything else, she didnt care for thr conseaqences so she didnt explore them.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is common knowledge to us but not really to them.  Syl jokes about it but that does not mean that Navani puts it together instantly.  Remember this is very new subject matter for rosharan scholars.  They know even less then we do, have had less time to get use to knowing, and on top of it all have to unlearn previous theories.

Again, can kill a god, why wouldnt she think it could hurt spren, or people or just about anything. on the scale of power gods sit mountains higher than anything else, she didnt want to think about the consequences because she didnt care.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Untrue.  She was very worried.  She was too caught up in trying to end a war she thought she had lost from an impossible situation while being gas lighted by a seven thousand year old manipulator.

She wasnt being gas lighted, thats not what was going on. She was lied to, and fairly blatantly, not led to believe she was going crazy.

How worried was she in her rush to find anti light? So worried she didnt write down her steps? So worried she didnt not do it? She didnt care about the consequences and this is the issue, she did stupid rust because she cared about proving herself, not about the costs, not about saving anyone, it was all ego.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

She takes notes.  More or less all scholars do this.  It is exceptionally hard to organize your thinking without them.  I imagine she had a contingency to burn her notes if given enoug time but in between all she could do is what she did.  Hide them.

Yer i agree, taking notes can be helpful, im not saying she shouldnt have for her research, im saying she shoukdnt have because she was being monitored, as had been shown time and time again. She chose to instead of trying to even be a little sneaky to be blatant, tryinf to hide the notez after isnt an excuse, she shouldnt have written it down to begin with, it was stupid. And hide them, in what  3x4 room, eith one door, while on guard night and day, she couldnt hide whispering at the far end, why would she think she can hide her notebook, she didnt even use a different book, it was the same one, good job hiding it navani.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is common knowledge to us but not really to them.

Navani knew that Raboneil's lies were lies.  Her reasons for collaborating with her were simply different.  I see no problem.

You see no problem, with Navani choosing to worn with Raboneil to prove she was smart. If she knee Raboniel was lieing then she knew actually doing reaearch for her would not pay quid pro quo. So why then did she not to poor research, lead her astray, divert her. Again it was ego, she had no altruisti  intentions, and the ones Raboniel said to her they both knew where lies. How does helping with her research and giving away the siblings nodes slow down raboniels plans?

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Her conversations with the Sibling were being watched closely.  Her research was not. 

They where bith being watched, the fused st the door likly reported how many steps she took nothing wasnt monitored, she should have worked that out early and not repeated outloud the location of the node  but shes an idiot who was too caught up in her fake modesty to look at the situation and act cautiously. She could have done alot of good  instead she thought she was great and it led to her giving multiple pieces of vital information to thr enemy.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

She had a several step security system. 

1. Don't get caught.  Standard methods.  Do your work out of sight of the guard's direct view, work on several different problems at the same time so what you are doing is less clear, hide notes on secret project along with the two materials that actually matter(the plates).

Again, being monitored closly 24/7 shes going to get caught

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

1. During conversations deflect attention from secret project.

Better to not engage in conversation, you cant accidentally give key information if you dont say anything.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

1. If discovered possible the plate does not retain intent or at least that the difference is not noticed by investigator.

Wishful thinking, destroy the plate or better yet dont come up with it and they cant get it

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

1. If discovered and plate detected possible Raboneil does not figure out a method of making antivoidlight with it.

So hope?

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

1. If discovered and plate detected and method(vacuum) detected cooperate knowing that Raboneil will want to test the new theory(this is know because Navani would do the same thing and Navani understands Raboneil).  Leave room for a second while she blows herself up.  Raboneil won't realize this is a possibility anymore then I did initially.  I only know because some people did it by accident.  After she dies reenter room and destroy or abscond with notes.  The confusion caused by her death may allow me to make an escape using my prepared fabrail weapons.

Ahhh again hope, but this time with some treason thrown in. Her alternative, refuse.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

1. If Raboneil survives hope she can't do anything too dangerous with this technology.

You even wrote hope in this one, so you see these are all hope, no plan, no strategy, the great navanis counter intel boild down to put the book under other books amd hope.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

I challenge you to do better on short notice.

I would do nothing for raboniel. There are several ways Navani could do better, and doing  nothing is one of them. She could have actualy given counter intel (ie bad research) but nope Navani decided to do research for the enemy becauss shes got a big ego

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

Raboneil got Navani to work for her without knowing the consequence or purpose of her actions.  I call that a con.  You are of course entitled to read a character as you wish but calling Navani's motives selfish seems unfair.  We all have exploitable patterns of thought that leave us vulnerable to manipulation.  The fact that Raboniel managed to appeal to them is not Navani's fault.

I call it Navani being willfully ignorant, shes an adult, shes understands actions have consequences, she didnt consider them because she didnt want to. And ill be clear here, Navanis work could have resulted in only good things for the good guys, and nothing for the bad guys and she still made the wromg call. When you are captured by the enemy you dont devop new research for them. Especially when she was only tempted eith knowledge, no threat of violence, no torture of her subjets nothing just ohh hey Navani, i hear your smart...

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

So you are saying Navani's only motivation was curiosity and a desire to prove herself?  Both of which are normal and healthy human behaviors?  Seems too me that her only crime in that context is overestimating herself.  Navani may be Oppenheimer but it seems pretty unfair to cast her as Mr Sinister.

Sure theyre normal, but not when traded for what she gave, in the situation she was in, she chose to further her own pursuits and everyone be damned she was showing this fused who was smarter. Overestimating herself is a serious character flaw yes, but her crime was following those desires where it hurt other people, if she had worked this all out previous to the invasion and they found it after, then she doesnt bear responsibility. But it was while under close watch by the enemy, and at their request that she researched what has turned out to be the greatest weapon Odium now posseses

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

You are conflating two different decisions by Navani. She initially worked with her because she wanted to spy and sabotage.  The result was warlight.  Afterward she decided to work on anti-voidlight because she thought she was out of options.  I have already admitted that Navani has deep seated insecurities and a desire to prove herself.  This may have played a role or even compromised her judgement.  I personally think she was working because she thought she had no other choices.

I disagree, she intially worked with her over carrying buckets because of pride, and sold it as counter intel to herself. She then when given the option of counter intel, did not give counter intel if she had, or at least tried thrn maybe you could argue otherwise, but she didnt. She didnt misslead, she didnt even whisper the wrong location for the node to send the fused on a wild goose chase. Nope instead, she worked on really cutting edge research while under the close watch of the fused. 

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

This is absolutely a false dichotomy.  Navani could have been working with Raboneil because she thought Honor wanted her to.  There are more then two explanations to her behavior at any given time.

She could have worked with Raboniel because the wind blew east through the hall when asked. The fact she was tempted by kmowledge and then didnt give counter intel is very telling to her motives. She then later thinks ohhh well i stormed up, but its not my fault, god has a plan and he works in mysterious ways, this is her avoiding responsibility for what she had done. The main driving force for why she worked with Raboniel was to for the knowledge and the consequences be damned, this is shown over and over as she continues to provide good research to raboniel after shes been caught out.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is very much not what is happening here.  Sure doing something unintentionally does not mitigate the harm done.  Doing something that when combined with factors beyond your control creates harm is not something you can realistically blame people for.  Otherwise I could lay all the suffering done by a hurricane on the fact you breath.

So shes not responsible for anything because the big bad fused lied to her and really its not her fault anyway because honor has a plan for us all, and i didnt mean for her to use it as a weapon. Thats a bit hyperbole, im suggesting that what she did had direct consequences (which it did) and that she bears some responsibility for those comsequences despite her intentions (which i dont think where altruistic either). She developed the method for anti light, wrote said method down and mat as well have handed it to raboniel on a silver platter, she bears some responsibility for that. To pretend that intentions is all that matter is a child view of the world, and to suggest im blaming her on the damage a highstorm does is supreme hyperbole.

 

She had control of her actions, and the actions she chose lead to Odium getting antivoid light  this is not me using hyperbole or extenuating circumstances, if Navani had not worked on research for the fused rhey would not have anti light, and likly wouldnt for a long time after the good guys did. She had choises, she chose bad, she needs to bear that responsibility.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

As are (unsarcastically) the estimated millions of American troops and even japoniease civilians who might have been harmed if they could not get them to work.  The vast majority of people in WW2 on either side did not die from nukes.  Even the vast majority of civilians who died in cities.  I am not excusing their use I am just saying that I will not accept anyone who believes they can tell me weather them existing is good or bad. 

No we are wuite excellent at killing people as history shows. That doesnt take away from the horror that is a nuke. Nuclear weapons are largly a topic for elsewhere, but their only job is to cause massive multi generational distruction, so yes they are bad, one of the worst things we have ever done.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

The quote seems apropos.  I would say she worked, while under intense pressure, to find a way to defeat an unstoppable enemy, and the result is a devastating weapon whose effects and ethical implications are beyond me.  I actually sympathize with Raboneil a bit.  It seems only fair that everyone play for keeps this time around.

How did she undermine raboniel, what steps did she take to misslead, or redirect, or thwart. For the most part she happily worked on her research and repeated aloud everything the sibling said. I can see more than one way. And responsibility is often grey, i see several scenarios where Navani was forced to do the work under actial duresss (you know like torturing subjects infront of her until she complies) but it didnt take that, and given her willingness to help, and lack of a fight she bears considerable responsability for the consequences of her actions.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

What actual mistakes did Navani make?  I am talking about real mistakes not "this turned out badly" or "she should have known better."  I would say that since we don't know the full effects antivoidlight's discovery will have on Rosharan history we can't say yet if working on it was a mistake.  Also since Gavilar managed to make some it is not as if we know it would stay secret otherwise.  I agree she probably should have figured out the potential dangers of antivoidlight earlier.  The only real mistake I can think of is believing the sibling's communication was secure.  Navani has become too used to spanreeds. Never believe a message is secure is a rule that she would know if they did not have them. 

She activlry worked with the fused on research.

That alone, regardless of consequences, is a huge mistake. She took a promise of knowledge to start doing research for the enemy. She didnt even try to pass fake research on, or just not write down the meathod to creating antilight. She made several repeated mistakes.

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

You seriously need a reread.  They spied on Navani's conversations with the sibling.  The sibling assured Navani that the communication method was secure.  They did not keep her under 24/7 surveillance.

Was there not a guard at her door 24/7, did they not hear her whisper. Just because the sibling couldnt tell, doesnt mean they didnt. As is clearly evident by the fact that navini hid nothing on multiple occasions. If her only screw up had been to repeat the location out loud, which why at all would you, then maybe you could chalk that up to being out played. But after that she continued to hide things childishly. Ohhh they wont look at any but the top disk despite this one being scratched, why would they read my note book, ill put it under some other books itll be super inconspicuous. Just because the fused wasnt standing next to her doesnt mean she wasnt being watched. And when under guard its always best to assume youre being watched

[Knight Oblivion]

For Navani's path going forward, she has a whole set of oaths to realize. The next two should be something she understands, but the last two are unclear.

 

As per her actions, they seemed reasonably justified and will seemingly result in a mix grab bag of results.

[Karger he/him]

38 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

So she thinks it can kill a god, the greatest most powerful thing in existance amd doesnt think it will damage anything else or have any major blowback. Afterall its only a god why would it hurt anything else, she didnt care for thr conseaqences so she didnt explore them.

No one told Einstein what we could get from his homework either.  I challenge you to predict the results of any technological revolution accurately and we are used to them existing,  Development on this scale is very new on roshar.

40 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Again, can kill a god, why wouldnt she think it could hurt spren, or people or just about anything. on the scale of power gods sit mountains higher than anything else, she didnt want to think about the consequences because she didnt care.

You are entitled to your opinion but it remains an opinion.  Stating it as fact changes nothing.  Connecting the theoretical with the practical is a very difficult exercise at the best of times.  I think it realistic that Navani would make such a mistake given the limited time she has and pressures she is under.

44 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

She wasnt being gas lighted, thats not what was going on. She was lied to, and fairly blatantly, not led to believe she was going crazy.

The blatant lies were there on purpose.  Gaslighting does not always refer to making someone think they are crazy it is used to compromise someones ability to think clearly and make the choices they would otherwise.  Navani is led to believe that her cause is hopeless and the war will never end unless she can get this to work.

47 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

How worried was she in her rush to find anti light? So worried she didnt write down her steps? So worried she didnt not do it? She didnt care about the consequences and this is the issue, she did stupid rust because she cared about proving herself, not about the costs, not about saving anyone, it was all ego.

She was righting down theories and brainstorming sessions as well as recording results from her experiments for analysis.  That is part of the process.  Saying that Navani's only impulse was ego strays off the path from opinion to be demonstrably wrong.  No one in human history has been motivated solely by ego.  Human beings are composites of a large  number of emotions some of which are in opposition to each other.  Navani's main impulse may have been ego.  I think that is a more fitting description of Venli.  I would insted describe Navani's impulses mainly as a combination of a desire to prove herself, hope, fear, and desperation.

55 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

Yer i agree, taking notes can be helpful, im not saying she shouldnt have for her research

Hiding the notes would only hide them from causal observation as Navani knew.  If Navani thought researching was a good idea she needed notes.  Ergo she did the best she could.  You may think research itself was a bad idea but if she was being monitored as carefully as you suggest notes or no notes would not change much.

58 minutes ago, Lemiltock said:

You see no problem, with Navani choosing to worn with Raboneil to prove she was smart

I did not ever say anything resembling this.  I think it understandable that Navani would wish to prove her capacity to Raboneil.  I also think that it is a valid interpretation to state that this may have compromised Navani's judgement.  All this proves is that Navani has some deep seated insecurities(like everyone else) and that Raboneil was more then capable of exploiting them.  I think it wise to be circumspect in your criticisms in this regard as you never know when others might have cause to judge you for the same reasons.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

If she knee Raboniel was lieing then she knew actually doing reaearch for her would not pay quid pro quo. So why then did she not to poor research, lead her astray, divert her.

She instructed her scholars to do just this and did so with a moderate amount of success.  However diverting Raboneil is not a real solution.  It buys a small amount of time and limits Navani's access to information she might need in the future.  You are essentially saying Navani should cash in all her peices at the begining of the game without even knowing the rules or objectives of the players.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Again it was ego, she had no altruisti  intentions, and the ones Raboniel said to her they both knew where lies. How does helping with her research and giving away the siblings nodes slow down raboniels plans?

Navani gave away one sibling node as a mistake.  She helped her make Warlight which was useless to Raboneil(as Navani knew ahead of time) and actually was a much better time delay then what you are suggesting.  Navani effectively lead astray or diverted Raboniel by helping her find something real that was completely useless to her.  I call that a win.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

They where bith being watched, the fused st the door likly reported how many steps she took nothing wasnt monitored, she should have worked that out early and not repeated outloud the location of the node  but shes an idiot who was too caught up in her fake modesty to look at the situation and act cautiously. She could have done alot of good  instead she thought she was great and it led to her giving multiple pieces of vital information to thr enemy.

Again different times.  She discovered she was being watched in her conversations after the discovery of warlight and the loss of the second node.  They were also not watching but listening.  Remember the notes you complain about?  They cannot be read without a direct view.  Given that Navani is doing research on a topic the fused don't understand much of I do think she could have gotten away with it.Anot

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Again, being monitored closly 24/7 shes going to get caught

She was only around ten minutes too slow actually.  That is a lot when considering the several days process.  If Raboneil had waited to visit a little longer Navani would be in the clear.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Better to not engage in conversation, you cant accidentally give key information if you dont say anything.

And it is not at all suspicious.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Wishful thinking, destroy the plate or better yet dont come up with it and they cant get it

Navani needs the plate to accurately reproduce the rhythms so that is not an option nor is it wishful thinking to think that the plate may not retain intent.  No one knows the rules.  It is a coin flip.  Finally Navani concluded that this work is a good idea.  The fact that you think the research should not happen is not a flaw in the security. 

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

So hope?

Another layer of security.  Presented with an unfamiliar peace of technology you won't always figure out its purpose.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Ahhh again hope, but this time with some treason thrown in. Her alternative, refuse.

The fact that you think the research should not happen is not a flaw in the security.  Navani correctly judged Raboneil's behavior and acted accordingly.  Raboneil survived because of pure luck.  This treason was undetectable and would have delayed the sibling's death until at least the next everstorm.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

You even wrote hope in this one, so you see these are all hope, no plan, no strategy, the great navanis counter intel boild down to put the book under other books amd hope.

While a plan is in operation you can only hope that things work out the way you want them to.  Navani maximized her odds using clever strategy where she could and hoped where she could not. 

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

I would do nothing for raboniel. There are several ways Navani could do better, and doing  nothing is one of them. She could have actualy given counter intel (ie bad research) but nope Navani decided to do research for the enemy becauss shes got a big ego

She did the second for a good chunck of the book(that is how it gots it's title).  She consideres doing the first but decises against it.  We won't know the full extent of Navani's actions for years or decades.  As to your last comment.  Repetion does not make a statement more true.  I have freely admitted that an interpretation in that direction is valid.  Your rufusal to see any other point of view is irritating not interesting.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

I call it Navani being willfully ignorant, shes an adult, shes understands actions have consequences, she didnt consider them because she didnt want to.

Even the shards can't perfectly predict the consequences of those actions.  Willful ignorence is also somthing everyone is guilty of at some times.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

And ill be clear here, Navanis work could have resulted in only good things for the good guys, and nothing for the bad guys and she still made the wromg call. When you are captured by the enemy you dont devop new research for them. Especially when she was only tempted eith knowledge, no threat of violence, no torture of her subjets nothing just ohh hey Navani, i hear your smart...

I fail to see how Navani could pull off what you sugjest.  Navani also is smart.  She is a connector and orginizor.  You can't expect her to be amazing at everything all the time.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Overestimating herself is a serious character flaw yes, but her crime was following those desires where it hurt other people

A chacter flaw is not a desire.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

Thats a bit hyperbole, im suggesting that what she did had direct consequences (which it did) and that she bears some responsibility for those comsequences despite her intentions (which i dont think where altruistic either). She developed the method for anti light, wrote said method down and mat as well have handed it to raboniel on a silver platter, she bears some responsibility for that.

She did not hand over the method nor did she figure out the full implications until after Raboneill discovered what she did.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

No we are wuite excellent at killing people as history shows. That doesnt take away from the horror that is a nuke. Nuclear weapons are largly a topic for elsewhere, but their only job is to cause massive multi generational distruction, so yes they are bad, one of the worst things we have ever done.

I agree this is a topic for elsewhere.  However gunpowder has killed many more people then nukes and the same attitude does not exist around it.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

but it didnt take that, and given her willingness to help, and lack of a fight she bears considerable responsability for the consequences of her actions.

She saved the tower in all probability.  Kaladin may or may not have been able to turn the tide.  I am more inclind to think not despite my respect for him.

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

 

That alone, regardless of consequences, is a huge mistake. She took a promise of knowledge to start doing research for the enemy. She didnt even try to pass fake research on, or just not write down the meathod to creating antilight. She made several repeated mistakes.

It is not like Navani wrote an instruction manual.  They reverce engineered her work.  With the exception of herself personally most of the scholars in the tower did actually spend their time wasting time(at Navani's orders).

43 minutes ago, Knight Oblivion said:

For Navani's path going forward, she has a whole set of oaths to realize. The next two should be something she understands, but the last two are unclear.

I am interested to see what her third oath will be.

 

 

[Lemiltock]

13 hours ago, Karger said:

No one told Einstein what we could get from his homework either.  I challenge you to predict the results of any technological revolution accurately and we are used to them existing,  Development on this scale is very new on roshar.

Did einstein work for the nazis? This is not a great example, ive stated several times my issues it not her discovery, its her discovery under the fused. She did not need to do that research when and where she did. And doing so lead directly to the fused having access. So again, this is about what she did more so than its effects. She developed cutting edge research for the fused, which lead to this discovery directly, not some implication, or someone else furthered it, directly. She directly devolped the method for anti light while working under the fused and under no duress which lead to the equivalent of a nuke.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

You are entitled to your opinion but it remains an opinion.  Stating it as fact changes nothing.  Connecting the theoretical with the practical is a very difficult exercise at the best of times.  I think it realistic that Navani would make such a mistake given the limited time she has and pressures she is under.

As opposed to you repeated missing my point, the issue is the when and how, she applied almost no subterfuge, and less counter interl. she was shown multiple time that robinel could not be trusted and yet, with no altruistic intentions, she feverishly worked on developing antilight to prove she herself to raboniel.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

The blatant lies were there on purpose.  Gaslighting does not always refer to making someone think they are crazy it is used to compromise someones ability to think clearly and make the choices they would otherwise.  Navani is led to believe that her cause is hopeless and the war will never end unless she can get this to work.

Gaslighting is not blatant lieing, you are using the wrong term here. Gaslighting is where a person changes things and lies about them to make you doubt reality, it is very serious and not just one personlieing to the other. Even so, you rourself have stated navani knew rabonirl was lieing to her. Why then did she willing perform research for her.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

She was righting down theories and brainstorming sessions as well as recording results from her experiments for analysis.  That is part of the process.  Saying that Navani's only impulse was ego strays off the path from opinion to be demonstrably wrong.  No one in human history has been motivated solely by ego.  Human beings are composites of a large  number of emotions some of which are in opposition to each other.  Navani's main impulse may have been ego.  I think that is a more fitting description of Venli.  I would insted describe Navani's impulses mainly as a combination of a desire to prove herself, hope, fear, and desperation.

Navani had no altruistic motives after her small delaying tachniques where pointed out. So to break down the 4 motives youve given

Desire to prove her self : this falls under her ego

Hope : for what? That her research would lead to raboniel leaving the tower, a fact she knew was a lie, and a poor one at that. She had hope that Kaladin would do something but did that really motivate her to do the research. I see her hope also as fueld by ego. She thought her research would do something, this is ego again.

Fear: sure she was affraid, but when reading her chapters fear did not seem a motivator

Desperation: the only desperation i saw in her motives was when she was feverishly trying to finish antiligh to prove she was a real scholar and impress raboniel, this again is ego

 

I will admit my wording may indicate that in saying her only motivd is ego. I do not think this, a better way of stating this would be Navani had minimum if any atruistic reasoning for completing her research with raboniel. 

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Hiding the notes would only hide them from causal observation as Navani knew.  If Navani thought researching was a good idea she needed notes.  Ergo she did the best she could.  You may think research itself was a bad idea but if she was being monitored as carefully as you suggest notes or no notes would not change much.

So she knew she couldnt hide her notes would be found, as the fused have proven to be more than casual observers. Putting that asside, if she had not written the notes down it would have shown some fight. Like when she asked her scholars to reorder stuff. Its not the research itself, i think the advancement was incredible. Its the research while working under the fused that was not a smart move. She developed the research for the enemy.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I did not ever say anything resembling this.  I think it understandable that Navani would wish to prove her capacity to Raboneil.  I also think that it is a valid interpretation to state that this may have compromised Navani's judgement.  All this proves is that Navani has some deep seated insecurities(like everyone else) and that Raboneil was more then capable of exploiting them. 

So you do have a problem with Navani working with the fused, thats all im trying to say. She made a mistake and needs to wear it. That doesnt mean i want to see her flogged or legally persecuted or ostrecised. But she made the wrong choice, several times with significant lasting consequences. 

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I think it wise to be circumspect in your criticisms in this regard as you never know when others might have cause to judge you for the same reasons.

Hopefully if I was in Navanis situation I would be able to not make the same mistakes as her, and if I did, id be able to identify I had, and make amends on my own. If i was unable to then hopefully someone else can point them out. The only way we move forward is by fixing our mistakes. 

13 hours ago, Karger said:

She instructed her scholars to do just this and did so with a moderate amount of success.  However diverting Raboneil is not a real solution.  It buys a small amount of time and limits Navani's access to information she might need in the future.  You are essentially saying Navani should cash in all her peices at the begining of the game without even knowing the rules or objectives of the players.

No im saying Navani didnt work on her research with raboniel for any altruistic purposes. That she have not done any research for them and that she sailed passed several redlights and at least one natural stopping point (war light)

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Navani gave away one sibling node as a mistake.  She helped her make Warlight which was useless to Raboneil(as Navani knew ahead of time) and actually was a much better time delay then what you are suggesting.  Navani effectively lead astray or diverted Raboniel by helping her find something real that was completely useless to her.  I call that a win.

She didnt stop after that mistake though did she? She still thought she could out smart the fused.

She also didnt know warlight wouldnt be antilight ahead of time. She knew once it was made but she knew antilight was possible, and that raboniel wanted it, yet she worked eith her all the same.

Navani did not though, she had the opportunity to stop at warlight, to leave that at a see our investiture does work together. But instead she needed to prove herself and in doing so she gave odium antilight.

In saying this I do not think Navani could have provided counter intel or lead raboniel astary, the way she realistically could have done better is by not helpping the fused with research, plain and simple.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Again different times.  She discovered she was being watched in her conversations after the discovery of warlight and the loss of the second node.  They were also not watching but listening.  Remember the notes you complain about?  They cannot be read without a direct view.  Given that Navani is doing research on a topic the fused don't understand much of I do think she could have gotten away with it.Anot

They where clearly monitoring her. The fused listening didnt need to understand her notes, just that she was doing research, its a what 3x4 room not much space to hide stuff. And if your raboneil, whats the first thing you look for after you know your caged scholar has been doing more research, the notes. If Navani had not written the notes, they couldnt have found them. As you said the fused monitoring her likely didnt understand the research and so Navani could have refused to give up information. But she didnt, the fused monitoring knew she was doing research and raboneil found the note book with what 30 seconds of not even looking?

13 hours ago, Karger said:

She was only around ten minutes too slow actually.  That is a lot when considering the several days process.  If Raboneil had waited to visit a little longer Navani would be in the clear.

If raboneil, who had clearly asked the fused guard to report on anything Navani did, hadnt been aware of what navani did and what slept in? This is a tenious argument, you dont flip a coin on information this vital. If she didnt have it written down they couldnt read it, if she hadnt done it at all, they wouldnt know it existed.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

And it is not at all suspicious.

Who cares if its suspicious, what does it matter if she suspects you know more if you never give her the information. You dont need to act all cool like james bond, not talking is almost always better than trying to distract.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Navani needs the plate to accurately reproduce the rhythms so that is not an option nor is it wishful thinking to think that the plate may not retain intent.  No one knows the rules.  It is a coin flip.  Finally Navani concluded that this work is a good idea.  The fact that you think the research should not happen is not a flaw in the security. 

No i dont think the research shouldnt happen. I think it shouldnt happen while working under the fused. She should have waited until she was not under the fused. Simple as that. You dont take a coin flip on such important information. Also, if the plate did not exist it couldnt be found.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Another layer of security.  Presented with an unfamiliar peace of technology you won't always figure out its purpose.

You know hoe the fused cant get the information, if it doesnt exist. That was an option open to navani, to not research while under the fused. She chose not to.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

The fact that you think the research should not happen is not a flaw in the security.  Navani correctly judged Raboneil's behavior and acted accordingly.  Raboneil survived because of pure luck.  This treason was undetectable and would have delayed the sibling's death until at least the next everstorm.

Luck, an immortal being surviving an explosion is luck? Because el didnt bring back the pursuer early? Yes navani didnt know about thr second, but she hailmaryed, when instead she should have not given them that information to begin with.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

While a plan is in operation you can only hope that things work out the way you want them to.  Navani maximized her odds using clever strategy where she could and hoped where she could not. 

No she didnt, she minimized her odds, by working kn the research, if it doesnt exist the chsnce of you giving it away is 0. Having decided she would do the research she then didnt even break apparatus or destory her notes (which she shouldnt have taken in the first place). Navani acted like a child that had eaten all the chocolate and after the fact wanted to hide it, there was no pre planning to hide her research, she did it then tried flimsily to hide it after.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

She did the second for a good chunck of the book(that is how it gots it's title).  She consideres doing the first but decises against it.  We won't know the full extent of Navani's actions for years or decades.  As to your last comment.  Repetion does not make a statement more true.  I have freely admitted that an interpretation in that direction is valid.  Your rufusal to see any other point of view is irritating not interesting.

Working on what raboniel wanted her to is not counter intel, navani did not know the results before, and she knew antilight was possible (which raboniel did not). This is not counter intel, it is infact just normal intel.

It is repetition because it has been presented in bith the books and your own responses. Her desire to prove herself was the biggest driver of her character, this is clear. Is she a comex character with emotions and multiple drivers, yes, but did she go inter a feverous state to find antilight because of something other than her desire to prove she was a true scholar (see ego), no. Your unwillingness to see this is as irritating for me, you talk around the topic  give coinflips in Navanis favour all in an effort for navani to not be responsible for her actions. Which would be the case if she had altrusitic intentions, a point i feel i have articulated in several different ways. But not agreeing with you is different from me not seeing other poitnd of view, or can i accuse you of this same thing?

13 hours ago, Karger said:

Even the shards can't perfectly predict the consequences of those actions.  Willful ignorence is also somthing everyone is guilty of at some times.

Yes it is, and navani being willfuly ignorant doesnt make her not human. But it is a bad idea, and she shouldnt get a pass because she was wilfully ignorant. That is the entirty of my point.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I fail to see how Navani could pull off what you sugjest.  Navani also is smart.  She is a connector and orginizor.  You can't expect her to be amazing at everything all the time.

You dont see how she could have done nothing?

13 hours ago, Karger said:

A chacter flaw is not a desire.

I never said it was, i said her crime wasnt her character flaw. 

13 hours ago, Karger said:

She did not hand over the method nor did she figure out the full implications until after Raboneill discovered what she did.

She wrote them down, where they could easily be discovered, she may as well have tought the fused how.

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I agree this is a topic for elsewhere.  However gunpowder has killed many more people then nukes and the same attitude does not exist around it.

Many people would consider guns  and the things weve done eith them, horrible. So i would disagree with you here as well

13 hours ago, Karger said:

She saved the tower in all probability.  Kaladin may or may not have been able to turn the tide.  I am more inclind to think not despite my respect for him.

She saved the sibling.

Who inspired the people to resist, who showed honor to the fused so they felt they could defect, who fought back against the fused at every turn, worked on freeing the radiants amd protecting the nodes. Kaladin saved the tower, well before he swore his 4th oath. 

13 hours ago, Karger said:

It is not like Navani wrote an instruction manual.  They reverce engineered her work.  With the exception of herself personally most of the scholars in the tower did actually spend their time wasting time(at Navani's orders).

She litterally wrote down the steps she took, reverse engineering would be like if she didnt write her notes down in the book.

And it is her actions that are being examined

13 hours ago, Karger said:

I am interested to see what her third oath will be.

 

 

I think her journey will be interesting and hopefully different from dalinars. Despite me disagreeing with her choices i did enjoy her chapters and think she can certainly grow and recover from them. Which is what i would like to see happen.

[Karger he/him]

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

She did not need to do that research when and where she did

She was sort of captured at the time so yes she did.  Also her research required the aid of the fused to work.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

So again, this is about what she did more so than its effects. She developed cutting edge research for the fused, which lead to this discovery directly, not some implication, or someone else furthered it, directly

That is debatable.  She did not create antistormlight nor did she realize that spren could be harmed this way.  The connection may be obvious to you but you have privileged information and are not in a situation where millions of lives could depend on what you do.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

She directly devolped the method for anti light while working under the fused and under no duress which lead to the equivalent of a nuke.

Arguable.  Effectively the entire tower was held hostage to her behavior.  Navani knows Raboneil will break her word if necessary.  The threat is implicit but still very real.  I would also not overstate the effects of Navani's research.  It gives the capacity to end the lives of a group who were previously immune to death.  That is not the same as giving the capacity to end life on such a large scale that it can only be used against entire populations.  I am not approving or disproving of antlight's discovery itself.  I personally agree with Raboneil but others must come to their own conclusions.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

she applied almost no subterfuge

She applied as much as she could.  You are essentially blaming Navani for a bad luck and not being smart enough.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

and less counter interl.

I would argue the entire warlight quest was effectively counter intel.  You repeatedly dismiss it but I think, from Navani's view at least, that is what it was.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

she was shown multiple time that robinel could not be trusted and yet, with no altruistic intentions, she feverishly worked on developing antilight to prove she herself to raboniel.

Again THIS IS AN OPINION!  You CANNOT definitely state someone's motives or emotional state.  I am glad you have an opinion but repeating it does not strengthen your argument.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Even so, you rourself have stated navani knew rabonirl was lieing to her. Why then did she willing perform research for her.

Navani knew Raboneil was lying to her and could not be trusted.  She preformed research both before and against her.  The research she willingly aided Raboneil on was ultimately of limited value to the fused's war effort but improved her standing with Raboneil and allowed her to continue observing the femalan as she worked.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Desire to prove her self : this falls under her ego

That is one way of looking at things.  There are others.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Hope : for what? That her research would lead to raboniel leaving the tower, a fact she knew was a lie, and a poor one at that

That she could discover something that she could use against Raboneil and save the sibling, or potentially help Kaladin with information, or a distraction at the right moment allowing her to save the sibling, or that her access might allow her to smuggle Rlain to bond the sibling, or that she might discover something about the fused's plans that she could get to Dalinar...  As long as appeared to be cooperating and had access to information she had a chance.  If she did nothing the sibling would eventually fall.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Fear: sure she was affraid, but when reading her chapters fear did not seem a motivator

If fear is present then it is a motivator.  It may be mitigated by other factors but it still exists.

4 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

 

I will admit my wording may indicate that in saying her only motivd is ego. I do not think this, a better way of stating this would be Navani had minimum if any atruistic reasoning for completing her research with raboniel. 

Also an opinion.  It is one I think more reasonable but when judging emotional states opinion is all you can really get unless we are directly told otherwise by a narrator and sometimes not even then. 

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

So she knew she couldnt hide her notes would be found, as the fused have proven to be more than casual observers. Putting that asside, if she had not written the notes down it would have shown some fight. Its the research while working under the fused that was not a smart move. She developed the research for the enemy.

So you don't count her hiding things, verbal deflections or attempted assassination as "some fight?"

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

So you do have a problem with Navani working with the fused, thats all im trying to say. She made a mistake and needs to wear it. That doesnt mean i want to see her flogged or legally persecuted or ostrecised. But she made the wrong choice, several times with significant lasting consequences. 

That remains to be seen.  As Dalinar said in warfare there is no such thing as an unequivocal victory.  Even if Navani had developed this back before the occupation I don't think it would take too long for the fused to duplicate it.  Military secrets don't stay that way forever.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

She didnt stop after that mistake though did she? She still thought she could out smart the fused.

In the end she did.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

She also didnt know warlight wouldnt be antilight ahead of time. She knew once it was made but she knew antilight was possible, and that raboniel wanted it, yet she worked eith her all the same.

Debatable.  You might argue she lacked definitive proof but Navani's entire process here forces her to make choices with limited information.  She had good reason to believe that warlight was not antilight.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Navani did not though, she had the opportunity to stop at warlight, to leave that at a see our investiture does work together. But instead she needed to prove herself and in doing so she gave odium antilight.

I have a hard time believing Odium could not have made antilight if he really wanted to already.  She considered giving up after warlight but decided to continue.  She made a choice not, I think, because she wanted to prove herself but because she thought she might have a way to permanently kill fused.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

In saying this I do not think Navani could have provided counter intel or lead raboniel astary, the way she realistically could have done better is by not helpping the fused with research, plain and simple.

Under that coarse of events the sibling would be a tenth unmade and Kaladin would have to fight against gathered forces of the fused with little to no support.  I fail to see how this is better for team radiant.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

And if your raboneil, whats the first thing you look for after you know your caged scholar has been doing more research, the notes

Which were hidden.  There was a layer of protection in that Navani was doing other research at the same time. 

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

But she didnt, the fused monitoring knew she was doing research and raboneil found the note book with what 30 seconds of not even looking?

Navani gave her the notes rather then antagonizing Raboneil for no reason.  She knew Raboneil would find the notes eventually so why put up a fight?  It helps literally no one.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

If raboneil, who had clearly asked the fused guard to report on anything Navani did, hadnt been aware of what navani did and what slept in? This is a tenious argument, you dont flip a coin on information this vital. If she didnt have it written down they couldnt read it, if she hadnt done it at all, they wouldnt know it existed.

If Raboneil had been ten minutes late the day the vacuum tube arrived Navani could have created an antivoidlight dagger(it took about that long), murdered her and escaped her cell with the aid of her fabrails.  The guard only reported that Navani was making a lot of nasty sounds.  Without Raboneil's help the sibling would be safe and the research kept out of fused hands.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Who cares if its suspicious, what does it matter if she suspects you know more if you never give her the information. You dont need to act all cool like james bond, not talking is almost always better than trying to distract.

Not talking draws far more attention most of the time.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

She should have waited until she was not under the fuse

That could have been never.  Escaping the most impressive fortress in rosharan history facing magical opponents while in your mid-fifties is not exactly easy.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

You know hoe the fused cant get the information, if it doesnt exist. That was an option open to navani, to not research while under the fused. She chose not to.

And she may have been right to do so.  Navani's actions forced Odium to the table and they may spell the end of the war. 

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Luck, an immortal being surviving an explosion is luck?

Yep.  If one of those diamond fragments had gone through her eye she would be dead according to Kaladin(fused die if they take a headshot).

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Because el didnt bring back the pursuer early?

We don't know the full mechanics of that.  I will simplify and state it would be a fairly long term delay.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Yes navani didnt know about thr second, but she hailmaryed, when instead she should have not given them that information to begin with.

A valid opinion.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

No she didnt, she minimized her odds, by working kn the research, if it doesnt exist the chsnce of you giving it away is 0.

Assume you think working on the research is a necessary risk and taking notes is a necessary part of the research.  What do you do differently?

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

It is repetition because it has been presented in bith the books and your own responses. Her desire to prove herself was the biggest driver of her character, this is clear. Is she a comex character with emotions and multiple drivers, yes, but did she go inter a feverous state to find antilight because of something other than her desire to prove she was a true scholar (see ego), no

Clear to you maybe.  Show me with direct textual evidence that your view is exclusively the correct one and I will happily end this discussion and admit you are 100% correct.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

you talk around the topic  give coinflips in Navanis favour all in an effort for navani to not be responsible for her actions

When discussing probability you have to look at all the possible universes that result from any given coinflip.  A 1/3 chance does not mean that the 2/3 will occure all the time or that the 1/3 is invalid.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

Which would be the case if she had altrusitic intentions, a point i feel i have articulated in several different ways. But not agreeing with you is different from me not seeing other poitnd of view, or can i accuse you of this same thing?

Um...

20 hours ago, Karger said:

I have freely admitted that an interpretation in that direction is valid. 

You have succinctly summerized your position and I agree that it seems reasonable.  I simply do not agree that it is the only position that one can take when observing the same facts.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

You dont see how she could have done nothing?

I do.  I don't see how you can know that doing nothing results in a better outcome.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

She wrote them down, where they could easily be discovered, she may as well have tought the fused how.

She wrote down notes that the fused managed to desifer and use to reverse engineer her process before she could destroy them.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

 

Who inspired the people to resist, who showed honor to the fused so they felt they could defect, who fought back against the fused at every turn, worked on freeing the radiants amd protecting the nodes. Kaladin saved the tower, well before he swore his 4th oath. 

I agree Kaladin's actions are worthy of the highest admiration.  That does not change that he would be fighting an uphill battle against an enemy that outnumbered him, could summon reinforcements, and use large masses of civilians as hostiges if the tower had not come back online.

5 hours ago, Lemiltock said:

I think her journey will be interesting and hopefully different from dalinars. Despite me disagreeing with her choices i did enjoy her chapters and think she can certainly grow and recover from them. Which is what i would like to see happen.

Agreed.

 

[Lemiltock]

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

She was sort of captured at the time so yes she did.  Also her research required the aid of the fused to work.

I disagree, she got the knowledge of tones affecting it from the other scholars (tubing forks) and the joint light from the tower light. Did raboneil help her yes, but she was not necissary.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is debatable.  She did not create antistormlight nor did she realize that spren could be harmed this way.  The connection may be obvious to you but you have privileged information and are not in a situation where millions of lives could depend on what you do.

She rediscovered how it was made. So my wording was slightly off but my intent was on rediscover. The connection, should have been considered by her, she considered none of the consequences of working with the fused. This is part of my issue.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Arguable.  Effectively the entire tower was held hostage to her behavior.  Navani knows Raboneil will break her word if necessary.  The threat is implicit but still very real.  I would also not overstate the effects of Navani's research.  It gives the capacity to end the lives of a group who were previously immune to death.  That is not the same as giving the capacity to end life on such a large scale that it can only be used against entire populations.  I am not approving or disproving of antlight's discovery itself.  I personally agree with Raboneil but others must come to their own conclusions.

She did not do the research to prevent raboneil from corrupting the tower. As you yourself has stated, Navani knew that Raboneil was lieing to her about freeing people or leaving the tower. Navani litterly researched the weapon Raboneil used, she doesnt bear all the responsibility thats true, but some of it. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

She applied as much as she could.  You are essentially blaming Navani for a bad luck and not being smart enough.

No im blaming navani for working with the enemy instead of not.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I would argue the entire warlight quest was effectively counter intel.  You repeatedly dismiss it but I think, from Navani's view at least, that is what it was.

But it wasnt, navani wasnt working on it knowing it was different from anti light. Infact once she realised this she feverently worked on anti light to prove herself. Navani did not mnow that combinding light was different from antilight until they had war light.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Again THIS IS AN OPINION!  You CANNOT definitely state someone's motives or emotional state.  I am glad you have an opinion but repeating it does not strengthen your argument.

Except we read her motives, brandon litterally showed us her decision making. She didnt think ohh this will save people, she thought and it was presented to us on paper about how she could be a real scholar and prove herself. So while in real life I could not, the book expressed her motivations to us, so yes I can state she was driven by her desire to prove herself to raboneil. The use off capitals does not strengthen your argument or reduce mine.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Navani knew Raboneil was lying to her and could not be trusted.  She preformed research both before and against her.  The research she willingly aided Raboneil on was ultimately of limited value to the fused's war effort but improved her standing with Raboneil and allowed her to continue observing the femalan as she worked.

She litterally gave them the method for creating antilight which is not of limited valur to the fused. Even if it was, she knowingly worked with the fused with no altruism in mind (she knew raboneil was lieing as you have stated)

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

That is one way of looking at things.  There are others.

Quote

ego

/ˈiːɡəʊ,ˈɛːɡəʊ/

noun

a person's sense of self-esteem or self-importance.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

That she could discover something that she could use against Raboneil and save the sibling, or potentially help Kaladin with information, or a distraction at the right moment allowing her to save the sibling, or that her access might allow her to smuggle Rlain to bond the sibling, or that she might discover something about the fused's plans that she could get to Dalinar...  As long as appeared to be cooperating and had access to information she had a chance.  If she did nothing the sibling would eventually fall.

Perhaps, she worked with the enemy, and gave good groundbreaking research for nothing more than the hope, she might get a chance to help. This is still a poor decision, and if she was going to try this you dont give away cutting edge research, why not work om her lifts, or even having worked with the enemy, getting to warlight, they think antilight is now impossible stoping here? She made several poor decisions and they only worked out because of plot.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

If fear is present then it is a motivator.  It may be mitigated by other factors but it still exists.

What did you say earlier about fact and opinion? Fear being present does not always make it a motivator, nor do we see navanis actions driven by fear.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Also an opinion.  It is one I think more reasonable but when judging emotional states opinion is all you can really get unless we are directly told otherwise by a narrator and sometimes not even then.

You have also stated navani knew raboneil was lieing, that she knew neither the tower nor her people would be freed, what altruistic reasons where shown in the book? All the reasons navani gave herself where selfish, we get to see this decision making take place.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

So you don't count her hiding things, verbal deflections or attempted assassination as "some fight?"

Did she still do the research without being pushed? The most fight she had was when she told her scholars to not work properly. Then once she was working alone she worked like a good scholar and didnt delay her research at all. Saying ohh look a bee, while a house burns behind you isnt fighting to hide it. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

That remains to be seen.  As Dalinar said in warfare there is no such thing as an unequivocal victory.  Even if Navani had developed this back before the occupation I don't think it would take too long for the fused to duplicate it.  Military secrets don't stay that way forever.

This was me pointing out how I navani would hold no blame in what the fused did with her research, not that I think it would have remained away from the fused. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

In the end she did.

What, did you read the same book? She didnt stop working on the research raboneil wanted her to work on until it was complete. This is litterlay like saying i found my keys in the last place I looked

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Debatable.  You might argue she lacked definitive proof but Navani's entire process here forces her to make choices with limited information.  She had good reason to believe that warlight was not antilight.

She did not desplay a single thought throughthe entire process that maybe this would misslead the fused. We get to see inside her head, and your attrbuting thoughts and alternatives that did not show uo.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I have a hard time believing Odium could not have made antilight if he really wanted to already.  She considered giving up after warlight but decided to continue.  She made a choice not, I think, because she wanted to prove herself but because she thought she might have a way to permanently kill fused.

Odium had thousands of years to do this and didnt. My moneys on him not changing his mind. But sure its possible.

Did you read this section? Navanis entire thougjt process was about how great it was to let go and only worry about her scholarly persuits, no distractions to take her away from it. She never once displayed a thought hinting at there being any other motive.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Under that coarse of events the sibling would be a tenth unmade and Kaladin would have to fight against gathered forces of the fused with little to no support.  I fail to see how this is better for team radiant.

Kaladin, the heavenly ones, and a collection of people. Kaladin by this point had plate and his full powers. I didnt say better i said he saved the day far more than navani did. He provided hope to the people, he fought back, he defended the nodes. Navani sat in a room and did research for the fused.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Which were hidden.  There was a layer of protection in that Navani was doing other research at the same time. 

Hidden again in a small room that was closly watched. This is like when a kid hides something i their room from their parents. And she didnt even write it across multiple notebooks, encode her research or store it not in her usual book. She basically didnt hide it

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Navani gave her the notes rather then antagonizing Raboneil for no reason.  She knew Raboneil would find the notes eventually so why put up a fight?  It helps literally no one.

What, you say shes smart to miss lead before, but smart to give in now? Given  what she knew of antilight she should have fought tooth and nail to either not hand over or destroy her research. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

If Raboneil had been ten minutes late the day the vacuum tube arrived Navani could have created an antivoidlight dagger(it took about that long), murdered her and escaped her cell with the aid of her fabrails.  The guard only reported that Navani was making a lot of nasty sounds.  Without Raboneil's help the sibling would be safe and the research kept out of fused hands.

With what dagger? She needed the dagger from raboneil which came after the antilight. Did the guard, this is opinion, we saw neither the report nor the thoughts of either the guard or raboneil. You mean, if the guard had not reported to the person thats been reported to all book? 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Not talking draws far more attention most of the time.

Attention is what she wants isnt it? Divert raboneils attention from other matters? But even so, i ment never talk, from day dot, refuse  go lift water dont give up the secrets to kill a god to the enemy

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

That could have been never.  Escaping the most impressive fortress in rosharan history facing magical opponents while in your mid-fifties is not exactly easy.

So, then the fused wouldnt have it. I didnt say it was a great choice, just the better choice.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

And she may have been right to do so.  Navani's actions forced Odium to the table and they may spell the end of the war. 

You can attribute this to navani, when it was more likely him failing to convert kaladin (which seems to have hurt him as much as failing eith dalinar did) and yet cannot attribute any of the consequences of the research navani directly completed and handed to the fused. This is a huge double standard

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Yep.  If one of those diamond fragments had gone through her eye she would be dead according to Kaladin(fused die if they take a headshot).

Thats not a plan,  when this blows up  one of the fragments will goes through her eye and kill her. This was a smart but brash attempt to make the most of the situation and ome of the smarter things she did, it was still not a plan.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

We don't know the full mechanics of that.  I will simplify and state it would be a fairly long term delay.

Yes we dont know the mechanics, but its also not a garuntee that with raboneil dead it would have delayed things, afterall it was raboneil stopping the radiants from being killed. Seems like a good trade though, a few days/weeks wait for all the radiant lives

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

A valid opinion.

Assume you think working on the research is a necessary risk and taking notes is a necessary part of the research.  What do you do differently?

I do not think its a necissary risk, and under the circumstance do not think I could hide the notes. This is the issue  navani thought she should do this research while under the fused, I do not think she should have made that choice

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Clear to you maybe.  Show me with direct textual evidence that your view is exclusively the correct one and I will happily end this discussion and admit you are 100% correct.

The entire sequence of navani feverishly working on antilight  where she comments on not having other distractions amd how wondeful it is to finally be just a scholar even if only for a minute, i do not have a digital ocpy of the book or I would cite it, however she not once during this thought, ohhh i can use this to save people, she infact thinks almost the opposite when she says she doesnt need to worry about other things.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

When discussing probability you have to look at all the possible universes that result from any given coinflip.  A 1/3 chance does not mean that the 2/3 will occure all the time or that the 1/3 is invalid.

I understand how probabilities work, lets explore it a little. Lets assume that each "coin flip" moment had a .5 chance of working (this is likely smaller but benefit of the doubt. Navani risks everything that the first moment goes un noticed by .5, the first two moments going un noticed iss now .25 (.5x.5) the thrid is .125, the fourth js 0.0625. Etc etc, so after only 4 coinflip moments navano has 6.25% chance of them all working out. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Um...

You have succinctly summerized your position and I agree that it seems reasonable.  I simply do not agree that it is the only position that one can take when observing the same facts.

This is evident by you disagreeing

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I do.  I don't see how you can know that doing nothing results in a better outcome.

You cant, but ehen the choice is do nothing and hope or perform research for the fused and hope. Option 1 likely results in less negatives. If the scales had started to tip, say raboneil had threated peoples lives if she didnt help, and help properly, then perhaps navani eould have a leg to stand on when shifting blame. But thats not how it happened.

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

She wrote down notes that the fused managed to desifer and use to reverse engineer her process before she could destroy them.

You mean the fused that csn read as has been shoe infront of navani several times by this point. They didnt need to reverse engineer, this would be if navani had created antilight gem and they found it, and then by examining it descovered how it was made. They instead interpreted and followed her nites to create it. 

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

I agree Kaladin's actions are worthy of the highest admiration.  That does not change that he would be fighting an uphill battle against an enemy that outnumbered him, could summon reinforcements, and use large masses of civilians as hostiges if the tower had not come back online.

Sure, its not an easy win, and the sibling helpped, which required navani. But she did not save the tower, even if she had it does not absolve her of giving odiums forces antilight

7 minutes ago, Karger said:

Agreed.

 

 

 

 

[Pathfinder]

On 12/11/2020 at 7:50 PM, Lemiltock said:

You mean the sibling wasnt talking to Kaladin and Dabid and neither of them managed to give those secrets to the unmade? Without Navani Kaladin showef up to the node the fused found, and the likleyhood of the fused finding the underwater node would be slim if not none, so yes Kaladin would have saved the day without Navani, and likley easier as he could heal better becore his 4th oath.s a crazy weapon, not to mention she lead the fused to the most hidden node.

So I understand you are quite passionate about your view regarding Navani doing research, so I will not touch that and potentially further inflame the situation.

 

What I will comment on however is whether or not Kaladin alone could have saved the tower had Navani done nothing.

1. The Sibling had no way to make light. Without the ability to make light, the defenses would remain in Fused hands. Even if the Sibling bonded with anyone else, it would still be unable to make light. The Sibling said so itself. So the SIbling would still be corrupted, and still be unable to defend itself. Kaladin would have had to evacuate Urithiru, which is what he had intended.

2. Had the Sibling contacted Kaladin instead of the Sibling, the same nodes would have been discovered. Raboniel was not listening in on Navani. She was listening in on the Sibling. So any communication between the Sibling and Kaladin would have also been discovered, and the nodes would have been found. Further overall the shield was only a delaying tactic. It was never meant to prevent Raboniel completely. They knew she would get around it eventually. Again Kaladin would have had to evacuate Urithiru, which is what he had intended. 

 

Ultimately Kaladin was another delaying action. The only way to regain Urithiru was by restoring its defenses. The only way to restore its defenses was to find a way to get the SIbling to be able to make light again. That is something Kaladin as an individual, Kaladin as a windrunner, and Kaladin based on his know-how, was simply unable to do. So Urithiru would have fallen. 

[Lemiltock]

 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

What I will comment on however is whether or not Kaladin alone could have saved the tower had Navani done nothing.

1. The Sibling had no way to make light. Without the ability to make light, the defenses would remain in Fused hands. Even if the Sibling bonded with anyone else, it would still be unable to make light. The Sibling said so itself. So the SIbling would still be corrupted, and still be unable to defend itself. Kaladin would have had to evacuate Urithiru, which is what he had intended.

I do mosrly agree here, they couldnhave potentially pushed the fushed out and worked on repairing the sibling. But the sibling is required for the tower to be usable.

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

2. Had the Sibling contacted Kaladin instead of the Sibling, the same nodes would have been discovered. Raboniel was not listening in on Navani. She was listening in on the Sibling. So any communication between the Sibling and Kaladin would have also been discovered, and the nodes would have been found. Further overall the shield was only a delaying tactic. It was never meant to prevent Raboniel completely. They knew she would get around it eventually. Again Kaladin would have had to evacuate Urithiru, which is what he had intended. 

This i dont agree with, she listened in on the conversation between navani and the sibling. While it is not explicitly stated this was likley by overhearing navani repeat out loud the location. 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Ultimately Kaladin was another delaying action. The only way to regain Urithiru was by restoring its defenses. The only way to restore its defenses was to find a way to get the SIbling to be able to make light again. That is something Kaladin as an individual, Kaladin as a windrunner, and Kaladin based on his know-how, was simply unable to do. So Urithiru would have fallen. 

The act of restoring the sibling would have likley been beyond kaladin due to the soecific knowledge that was required. However given kaladins connection to rlain,  the heavenly ones and even showing venli honor he had the most chance of getting scholars help in discovering it (had navani not worked with raboniel).

But this is not what i mean when i said kaladin saved the tower. He did several things that i think are nore significant than the actual fighting itself. He inspired the people of the tower and gave them hope, he showed honor to the fussed and listeners(singers?) Which eventualy pushed them to swap sides to defend the defenceless radiants, he defended and destroyed the nodes, and then after getting his plate he would have led the combinded resistsnce, listeners and heavenly ones against the rest if the tower and pushed them out, allowing for the sibling to discuss and for team radiant (which now includes several listeners amd fused) to listen/remake the sibling.

 

This is not to say that navani achieved nothing, i think she did, she just didnt save the tower, beyond the litteral remaking of the sibling. She didnt give hope, she didnt put up a resistance etc etc. But the point i was trying to get across is that navani made mistakes and I want to see her attone for them, most likley in a more personal "i will do better" way than a legal "off with her head" way. Even if she was the sole reason for team radiant winning, journey before destination is a radiant oath, and certainly some orders take this as the ends dont justify the means.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Lemiltock said:

 

I do mosrly agree here, they couldnhave potentially pushed the fushed out and worked on repairing the sibling. But the sibling is required for the tower to be usable.

But if they could have pushed the fused out, why did the plan come up twice where Kaladin states the best they can do is evacuate as many people as they can?

Quote

This i dont agree with, she listened in on the conversation between navani and the sibling. While it is not explicitly stated this was likley by overhearing navani repeat out loud the location. 

Raboniel says she had been listening in on the Sibling since they entered the tower, and that the Sibing is naïve which is why it didn't realize it could be listened in on. Navani did not speak out loud the location. The Sibling told her the location, and then freaked out because they had found it. Before Navani could have even told Kaladin. So the "wire tap" as it were was at the Sibling, not Navani's speech. 

 

Rhythm of War page 827

"The Sibling is truly to blame - they always have been so innocent. And unaware of their own naiveness. When I touched the pillar, I knew the Sibling was awake - but pretending to be dead. So I let the ruse continue, and I listened. I couldn't know that decision would bear fruit, bt that is why you nurture nine seeds and watch for the one that begins growing."

"The Sibling told me..." Navani said "hey said we couldn't outthink you."

"Yes, I heard that" Raboniel said "It made me worry that you'd spotted my surveillance. It seemed too obvious a line to distract me"

"How?" Navani asked, opening her eyes "How did you do it, Ancient One? Surely the Sibling would have known if their communication could be compromised"

(here is where Raboniel dodges the question)

 

So as you can see, it was the Sibling that was "wire tapped", not Navani. 

Quote

The act of restoring the sibling would have likley been beyond kaladin due to the soecific knowledge that was required. However given kaladins connection to rlain,  the heavenly ones and even showing venli honor he had the most chance of getting scholars help in discovering it (had navani not worked with raboniel).

Rlain was being discussed when the Sibling said it doesn't matter whether they bond a bondsmith or not, because it cannot make light. Navani was the one that figured out how to. If it was a simple matter for Rlain to do so, then a large chunk of the book would have had no reason to happen. The bond with Rlain would not have fixed anything, from the SIbling's own "mouth". 

 

Rhythm of War page 799

"I had not considered this," they said "A singer who does not serve Odium? I will need to think. It would certainly surprise Raboniel, who thinks that I am dead or sleeping. In any case, I cannot form a bond now, with the protections up. I would need him to touch my pillar"

"What if I had him here?" Navani said "Ready to try when the shield falls? And with some distractions in place to give you time to talk to him"

"I cannot form a bond with just anyone" the Sibling said "In the past I spent years evaluating Bondsmith squires to select one who fit me exactly. Even they eventually betrayed me, though not as badly as other humans"

"Can we really afford pickiness now?"

"It's not ickiness. It is the nature of spren and the bond. The person must be willing to swear the correct oaths, to unite instead of divide. They must meant it, and the oaths must be accepted. It is not simply a matter of throwing the first person you find at me. Beyond that, since I cannot create Towerlight, they will not be able to either. A bond would do nothing unless we solve the problems with my powers. It would be better if you focused on that problem instead"

 

So as you can see, they were discussing Rlain. Even if the Sibling bonded with him, it would change nothing. The Sibling and by proxy Rlain would be unable to create light, and thereby activate the defenses. 

Quote

But this is not what i mean when i said kaladin saved the tower. He did several things that i think are nore significant than the actual fighting itself. He inspired the people of the tower and gave them hope, he showed honor to the fussed and listeners(singers?) Which eventualy pushed them to swap sides to defend the defenceless radiants, he defended and destroyed the nodes, and then after getting his plate he would have led the combinded resistsnce, listeners and heavenly ones against the rest if the tower and pushed them out, allowing for the sibling to discuss and for team radiant (which now includes several listeners amd fused) to listen/remake the sibling.

I guess at this point I am confused, because you stated in a prior post that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin could have saved the tower. I am in no way shape or form diminishing Kaladins considerable accomplishments, but at the end of the day they were only a stop gap. The oathgates brought in reinforcements, and would have continued to do so. That is why the fight over the radiant's felt helpless. It was supposed to be a quick smash and grab to get out of there. The whole thing would have failed, and Kaladin and co would have needed to flee (which was the original plan. Grab everyone they could and get out of dodge). Based on the information provided in the book, I see no way that Kaladin regardless how many people he rallies, of being able to retake Urithiru, push the enemy out, and hold the tower. It is stated repeatedly till the defenses are switched back to against the fused, the tower is enemy's. 

Quote

This is not to say that navani achieved nothing, i think she did, she just didnt save the tower, beyond the litteral remaking of the sibling. She didnt give hope, she didnt put up a resistance etc etc. But the point i was trying to get across is that navani made mistakes and I want to see her attone for them, most likley in a more personal "i will do better" way than a legal "off with her head" way. Even if she was the sole reason for team radiant winning, journey before destination is a radiant oath, and certainly some orders take this as the ends dont justify the means.

As I said given the heated nature of the earlier discourse, I am not touching with a ten foot poll as to whether Navani achieved anything, or caused things to go worse with her research. All I was commenting on was the suggestion that had Navani done nothing, Kaladin would have found a way to save the tower. Which from everything we are given to see in the novel to me is impossible. 

Edited December 15, 2020 by Pathfinder