The Sibling is of Honor

[Stormwalker]

Of the three Bondsmith spren -- The Nightwatcher, the Stormfather, and the Sibling -- it is generally accepted that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's spren and the Stormfather is Honor's. However, recently this has struck me as a bit odd. We are told (via WoB) that the storm on Roshar, as well as the spren and the parsh people existed on Roshar pre-Honor's arrival. So shouldn't we expect that the Stormfather existed as the spren of the Storm before Honor arrived? Obviously the idea that the Stormfather being Honor's spren makes sense in the current times, now that Honor has given him extra power/sentience. However, do we actually have any evidence besides this that the Stormfather is actually his spren? Why couldn't Honor, in his last days, give this power to a different spren? That's why I'm starting to think that of the three, it is really the Sibling that was Honor's spren, and that the Stormfather is a tertiary spren (perhaps of Adonalsium, who presumably made the storm).

Of the theory that the Sibling is Honor's spren we also have one other interesting point of evidence. We are told in WoR, that the Radiants built Urithuru where it is, rather than in Alethela, because they wanted it to be "closer to Honor". We also have a variety of evidence that the Sibling was fundamentally related to the tower itself. Perhaps the Sibling, being the spren of Honor, was located in the mountain of Urithuru (right next to the Cultivation's Valley, as seems fitting), and this is what the Radiants meant when they said they wanted it close to Honor -- that is, close to his spren.

We also know, that during the time of the recreance, that the Sibling went to 'sleep' -- whatever that means. Whether this was due to the recreance itself, Melishi's (who I suspect was bonded to him) role in the capturing of Ba-Ado-Mishram, or, as this theory allows, due to Honor's own death, perhaps this was the reason Honor chose not to give a part of himself to the Sibling, and instead went with the Stormfather.

[Vessel of Theory he/him]

57 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Of the three Bondsmith spren -- The Nightwatcher, the Stormfather, and the Sibling -- it is generally accepted that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's spren and the Stormfather is Honor's. However, recently this has struck me as a bit odd. We are told (via WoB) that the storm on Roshar, as well as the spren and the parsh people existed on Roshar pre-Honor's arrival. So shouldn't we expect that the Stormfather existed as the spren of the Storm before Honor arrived? Obviously the idea that the Stormfather being Honor's spren makes sense in the current times, now that Honor has given him extra power/sentience. However, do we actually have any evidence besides this that the Stormfather is actually his spren? Why couldn't Honor, in his last days, give this power to a different spren? That's why I'm starting to think that of the three, it is really the Sibling that was Honor's spren, and that the Stormfather is a tertiary spren (perhaps of Adonalsium, who presumably made the storm).

Of the theory that the Sibling is Honor's spren we also have one other interesting point of evidence. We are told in WoR, that the Radiants built Urithuru where it is, rather than in Alethela, because they wanted it to be "closer to Honor". We also have a variety of evidence that the Sibling was fundamentally related to the tower itself. Perhaps the Sibling, being the spren of Honor, was located in the mountain of Urithuru (right next to the Cultivation's Valley, as seems fitting), and this is what the Radiants meant when they said they wanted it close to Honor -- that is, close to his spren.

We also know, that during the time of the recreance, that the Sibling went to 'sleep' -- whatever that means. Whether this was due to the recreance itself, Melishi's (who I suspect was bonded to him) role in the capturing of Ba-Ado-Mishram, or, as this theory allows, due to Honor's own death, perhaps this was the reason Honor chose not to give a part of himself to the Sibling, and instead went with the Stormfather.

I'm following you, this is just too good. 

I like the direction you're going, but I'm not sure you're hitting the nail on the head. IMO, the Sibling is likely older than the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, seeing as the Sibling does not assign itself a gender(typically a sign of older spren).

Also, I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that the Stormfather is related to Tanavast, something with Splinters and Shards that I don't have the time to investigate. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormfather

 

Here's something funny: Urithiru was built "in the place closest to Honor" and we know that Dalinar can feel the Stormfather in the direction of the Origin whenever there's no Highstorm. I'm thinking that you're onto something, that there's some connection between Honor and the Sibling. I don't think I know enough to make many conclusive comments, though.

[Stormwalker]

25 minutes ago, Vessel of Theory said:

I like the direction you're going, but I'm not sure you're hitting the nail on the head. IMO, the Sibling is likely older than the Stormfather and Nightwatcher, seeing as the Sibling does not assign itself a gender(typically a sign of older spren).

Is there a reference to that being a sign of older spren? I haven't heard anything of that. Regardless, perhaps the gender of the Stormfather changed after Honor invested him. Or perhaps it slowly changed over the millennia as humans conflated him both with Honor and the Heralds Jezrien and Kelek.

26 minutes ago, Vessel of Theory said:

Also, I'm pretty sure it's been confirmed that the Stormfather is related to Tanavast, something with Splinters and Shards that I don't have the time to investigate. https://coppermind.net/wiki/Stormfather

The Stormfather is a splinter of Honor. But that can just be because of what Honor did to him when he (Honor) was dying. The Stormfather is also apparently regarded as a Sliver of Honor because he merged with Tanavast's cognitive shadow  -- again, an event that happened as Honor was dying.

[Vessel of Theory he/him]

9 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

Is there a reference to that being a sign of older spren? I haven't heard anything of that. Regardless, perhaps the gender of the Stormfather changed after Honor invested him. Or perhaps it slowly changed over the millennia as humans conflated him both with Honor and the Heralds Jezrien and Kelek.

The Stormfather is a splinter of Honor. But that can just be because of what Honor did to him when he (Honor) was dying. The Stormfather is also apparently regarded as a Sliver of Honor because he merged with Tanavast's cognitive shadow  -- again, an event that happened as Honor was dying.

Okay... I like it

I know that a lot of the older spren don't have genders because they are so much older, and I think forgotten, by most of mankind. You've definitely got a point, though, that stuff about Stormfather. Stormfather was a big spren before he was melded with Honor, any ideas who/what he was then? Was he a Bondsmith spren before being merged with Honor, or only after?

[Honorless he/him]

Those are good points, @Stormwalker but on the other hand, why was the Stormfather chosen by Honor to absorb his Cognitive Shadow? How was Honor able to pass on his duties, like creating Honorspren to the Stormfather before dying? How come the Highstorm distributed not just crem but Stormlight, Honor's Investiture?

The Highstorm already existed, and so did the Stormfather, in a different form. The Nightwatcher might've been created by Cultivation, so maybe Honor did something similar too. It could be that the Sibling was created by Honor.

[Stormwalker]

1 hour ago, Vessel of Theory said:

I know that a lot of the older spren don't have genders because they are so much older, and I think forgotten, by most of mankind. You've definitely got a point, though, that stuff about Stormfather. Stormfather was a big spren before he was melded with Honor, any ideas who/what he was then? Was he a Bondsmith spren before being merged with Honor, or only after?

Well, I think he still had to be a Bondsmith spren. As we know there were 3 of them. Perhaps the Stormfather could be the corresponding spren of Adonalsium itself, considering we know Adonalsium had some influence on the planet before it shattered.

Although, now that I think of your gender objection. Maybe there's an argument there just in terms of symmetry of genders. There does seem something to that in terms of the Heralds being split 5 and 5. And I think I might have heard the 5 males correspond to more Honor-leaning orders and the 5 females correspond to more Cultivation-leaning orders. Although I don't know how much of that is actually known to be true. If it was, however, one would expect Honor's spren to also be male to complete the symmetry, counter to my theory.

 

1 hour ago, Honorless said:

Those are good points, @Stormwalker but on the other hand, why was the Stormfather chosen by Honor to absorb his Cognitive Shadow? How was Honor able to pass on his duties, like creating Honorspren to the Stormfather before dying? How come the Highstorm distributed not just crem but Stormlight, Honor's Investiture?

Yeah, I guess the Stormlight is a bit of a problem. Do we know for sure that Stormlight is specifically Honor's investiture? Was it there before he visited the planet? For the other points, why he chose the stormfather is unclear. Perhaps due to whatever happened to the sibling. The power to create Honorspren of course would come from Honor adding his own investiture to the Stormfather as he was dying.

[kaellok he/him]

In the Roshar System Overview page in Arcanum Unbounded, calls out the storms and many of the spren predating the arrival of Honor and Cultivation.  It also says that the presence of the Shards have transformed the planet to a degree that it's difficult to determine what existed prior and what is newer.  From that statement, it's fair to assume (but it remains an assumption) that certain existing things were transformed by the presence of Honor and Cultivation.  No clue here about the Stormfather, just that the storms are terrifyingly ancient (and combined with the letter to Hoid in WoR, almost definitely the work of Adonalsium).

4 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

So shouldn't we expect that the Stormfather existed as the spren of the Storm before Honor arrived? Obviously the idea that the Stormfather being Honor's spren makes sense in the current times, now that Honor has given him extra power/sentience. However, do we actually have any evidence besides this that the Stormfather is actually his spren? Why couldn't Honor, in his last days, give this power to a different spren? That's why I'm starting to think that of the three, it is really the Sibling that was Honor's spren, and that the Stormfather is a tertiary spren (perhaps of Adonalsium, who presumably made the storm).

Quote

[Dalinar, to the Stormfather] "You said that you were a fragment of the Almighty."

[the Stormfather, to Dalinar] "I AM HIS...SPREN, YOU MIGHT SAY.  NOT HIS SOUL.  I AM THE MEMORY MEN CREATE FOR HIM, NOW THAT HE IS GONE.  THE PERSONIFICATION OF STORMS AND OF THE DIVINE.  I AM NO GOD.  I AM BUT A SHADOW OF ONE."

...

[Dalinar, to the Stormfather] "Life before death!" Dalinar shouted.  "Strength before weakness!  Journey before destination!"

[the Stormfather, to Dalinar] "I AM THE SLIVER OF THE ALMIGHTY HIMSELF!"

Words of Radiance, Ch. 89, p. 1070 and 1071 hardcover

The Stormfather says that Dalinar would consider him to be a spren.  There's more in OB and some WoB that indicate that what a Rosharan considers a spren is not necessarily a 1:1 example of what we would (https://coppermind.net/wiki/Spren).  So that could explain the hesitation (even if Honor refers to himself as the spren of Honor to Dalinar, that really does not mean that we would call him that).  However, as an interesting addendum, spren can be combined together through unspecified means (https://wob.coppermind.net/events/2-jordancon-2016/#e215). 

There's more to it than just that, though.  WoB have given us that there's a close link between Stormfather and Honor, as well as Nightwatcher and Cultivation.

Spoiler

Quote

Firefight Phoenix signing (Jan. 21, 2015)
#9 Share Copy

Questioner (paraphrased)

What is the relationship between Nightwatcher and Cultivation?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

I expected a hard RAFO, but he said Nightwatcher compared to Cultivation is similar to Stormfather compared to Honor.

 

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)
#12 Share Copy

Questioner (paraphrased)

Is the Nightwatcher a spren of Cultivation in a similar way that the Stormfather is to Honor?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

The Nightwatcher is not Cultivation but is related. You're on the right track.

 

Oathbringer Chicago signing (Nov. 21, 2017)
#23 Share Copy

Play/Pause

Questioner

Is the Nightwatcher a Cognitive Shadow of Cultivation? 

Brandon Sanderson

No, but good question. Excellent question.

 

JordanCon 2016 (April 23, 2016)
#28 Share Copy

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

1) The Nightwatcher and Stormfather are parallel entities such that Nighwatcher:Cultivation :: Stormfather:Honor.

2) There is sort of a parallel for Odium, but the parallel is the various Unmade instead of a single entity.

3) They are parallel in that they are all Splinters.

4) The Unmade are voluntary Splinters, because Odium ("like almost all of the other Shards") voluntarily Splintered part of it's power.

5) The Stormfather is different from the others because it's a Sliver.

 

Arcanum Unbounded Seattle signing (Dec. 1, 2016)
#5 Share Copy

Play/PausQuestioner

Seons are Splinters?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Splinters of Devotion.

Questioner

Um, Splintered...Honor is the *inaudible*...the stormwall...

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather?

Questioner

The Stormfather.

Brandon Sanderson

The Stormfather is technically a Splinter of Honor, but it was an intentional Splinter, that Honor did himself.

Questioner

Does he have another Splinter?

Brandon Sanderson

So, all of the honorspren are Splinters of Honor, but this is a different situation because he actually did this intentionally.

 

And when Dalinar first meets Odium, in one of his visions to speak with the Emperor of Azir, Odium says that Dalinar is the first to bond with the Stormfather in his current form.

All of this doesn't disprove your theory at all, since as I understand it your theory is that 'Sibling used to be the spren of Honor, but now it's the Stormfather because of shenanigans.'  However, I think that there's just too much pointing us directly away from that conclusion, and not much of anything indicating it, for that to be the intended case.

I've been thinking about the Bondsmith spren again recently, and love the new theories that people are having regarding them.  I really want for there to be something going on with them that's just a little bit more than what seems so obvious, and really appreciate the time and effort for this one.

[Honorless he/him]

6 hours ago, Stormwalker said:

Yeah, I guess the Stormlight is a bit of a problem. Do we know for sure that Stormlight is specifically Honor's investiture? Was it there before he visited the planet?

Yes, Stormlight is specifically Honor's Investiture. Investiture was presumably distributed by the Highstorm even before Honor's arrival as the spren needed it, but the Investiture may or may not have been different back then. Stormlight was definitely distributed back during the times of the ancient Radiants, way before Tanavast's death.

[Stormwalker]

18 hours ago, kaellok said:

There's more to it than just that, though.  WoB have given us that there's a close link between Stormfather and Honor, as well as Nightwatcher and Cultivation.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Yeah, the WoB of the parallel between the Nightwatcher and Stormfather is pretty damning for my theory. As you say, it doesn't completely disprove it, but it does seem likely dead. I just can't but help but think the Sibling is going to be an odd man out, otherwise. Unless, instead the Sibling is related to Odium in some way (which honestly was a previous belief of mine), but that also seems unlikely.

[Aon Tia she/her]

@Stormwalker I like this theory. 
Sibling is definitely related to Honor but not sure regarding the relationship there. Was he created by honor or co-opted by honor, we don’t know. May be he is of both honor and cultivation as many believe. 
 

On 30/10/2020 at 0:05 AM, Honorless said:

hand, why was the Stormfather chosen by Honor to absorb his Cognitive Shadow? How was Honor able to pass on his duties, like creating Honorspren to the Stormfather before dying? How come the Highstorm distributed not just crem but Stormlight, Honor's Investiture

May be Honor distributed his splinters to both stormfather and the sibling. 
That would be smarter actually than to put every egg in a single basket and a basket at that which is most visible, most obvious. It will make sense that Stormfather is there to divert everyone’s attention from the sibling. 
Who went into sleep mode to hide. Also explains why Stormfather does not want Dalinar discussing sibling at all. 
 

 

Edited October 31, 2020 by The Traveller

[Realmatic Shadow]

On 30/10/2020 at 11:25 AM, Honorless said:

Investiture was presumably distributed by the Highstorm even before Honor's arrival as the spren needed it, but the Investiture may or may not have been different back then

Before Honor arrived would fall mostly into Pre-Shattering times, where Investiture was all of one 'Shard', Adonalsium. After the Shattering we can't be sure about what would've happened to the Investiture being distributed by the Highstorms, though a likely guess is that it started distributing some Investiture of all the Shards, as all the Investiture in the Cosmere had been divided evenly between the sixteen of them at the Shattering. I'm not sure how Honor, using only their Investiture, would change this to only be Honor's Investiture being distributed, but it is likely possible.

It is also possible that, immediately after the Shattering, there was no Investiture being distributed by the Highstorms, and Honor just borrowed the mechanism that Adonalsium had used before that to distribute his own instead. Upon further consideration, this one makes slightly more sense, but I'll leave the prior speculation above, as it may still be interesting to others.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

On 10/29/2020 at 3:38 PM, Stormwalker said:

And I think I might have heard the 5 males correspond to more Honor-leaning orders and the 5 females correspond to more Cultivation-leaning orders.

This is a common theory, but one I would disagree with. Willshapers (Kalak's order) sound much less Honor-y than Dustbringers (Chana's order) to me, for example. At least, based on the order mottos we have for them. And unless there's some reveals coming about Kalak and Chana's genders, this would seem to break the pattern. 

Also, it would be weird for Bondsmiths to lean Honor, when the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren. 

[Stormwalker]

37 minutes ago, beewall said:

This is a common theory, but one I would disagree with. Willshapers (Kalak's order) sound much less Honor-y than Dustbringers (Chana's order) to me, for example. At least, based on the order mottos we have for them. And unless there's some reveals coming about Kalak and Chana's genders, this would seem to break the pattern. 

Also, it would be weird for Bondsmiths to lean Honor, when the Nightwatcher is a Bondsmith spren. 

I don't really know much about either of those orders. But I don't see how it is out of the question that Willshapers are Honor-leaning and Dustbringers are Cultivation-leaning with our current knowledge. As for Bondsmiths, they literally do exactly what Honor's intent is -- they bond things together. I can't see how they could be any more Honor-leaning. The fact that one can bond the Nightwatcher seems irrelevant.

[LewsTherinTelescope]

17 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

I don't really know much about either of those orders. But I don't see how it is out of the question that Willshapers are Honor-leaning and Dustbringers are Cultivation-leaning with our current knowledge. 

Willshapers:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Willshaper

I will seek freedom

The Willshapers believe strongly that all people should be free to make their own choices. Their oaths are themed toward freedom and letting people be free to express themselves and make their own way in life.

The Willshapers have a reputation for attracting builders, craftspeople, and creators to the Radiants. However, while this aspect of them is accurate, the actual membership of the Order is far more varied. Their powers lend themselves to creation, true, but their oaths are focused on freedom and personal fulfillment. Many among the Willshapers are warriors focused on freeing those who are captive, and others are focused on radical self-expression. The Willshapers contain many gregarious and even flamboyant characters who make their own way, taking the path they choose. They are united through a love of building, but some consider the building of society to be more important than the building of structures. Among the Willshapers, you’ll find both those who dress very conservatively and those who wear very daring and original styles. The common ground is that both agree that freedom to express who you are is the important part. Among the Radiants, they are generally focused on building, training, and making infrastructure. In war, they might be sent to a town to fortify it against an oncoming invasion. Before or in the wake of Desolations, they would teach the people things like sanitation, bronzeworking, or other essentials. Anywhere you find someone resisting tyranny or oppression, you’ll often find a Willshaper cheering them on.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

Dustbringers:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Dustbringer

I will seek self-mastery

Dustbringer oaths were themed toward responsibility. They were led to understand that the powers they used needed to be properly channeled, much as their own desires and wills needed proper form and shape. As a Dustbringer moved through the oaths, they were taught greater powers of destruction—and are one of the only orders where their abilities weren’t all available at the beginning, but instead were delivered slowly, as they made the proper oaths. Each oath led to a greater understanding of power, the nature of holding it, and the associated responsibility.

Dustbringers—though they sometimes objected to the common name for their order, preferring instead to be called Releasers—are living contradictions among the Knights Radiant. They believe great power requires a strong will to control it. They often attract tinkerers who like to dig down into the shape and soul of a thing, break it, and see what makes it work. However, their oaths are themed toward control—that they need to be able to control, contain, and channel the terrible power inside them. They tend to object to those who focus only on their destructive sides, as they argue that in order to create, one must understand the pieces of the thing they are trying to make. They don’t see themselves as being about destruction—though their powers are the most destructive of any order of Knights Radiant. They instead see their nature as being about control, precision, and understanding. In the Knights Radiant, they tend to act as the equivalent of artillery in a modern army. If you want a large swath of land destroyed or burned, you call in the Dustbringers. However, they were also often used as sappers, engineers, and strategists.

They attract anyone who likes to take things apart, who likes to know how things work. They also attract those who are a little foolhardy at times—brave soldiers who see themselves as containing and controlling terrible destruction so it won’t get out of hand and hurt innocents.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

Of the two, Willshapers feels much more Cultivation and less Honor, though Dustbringers feel more towards the middle than fully one or the other. But I'd put Dustbringers with Honor and Willshapers with Cultivation if I had to pick one.

17 minutes ago, Stormwalker said:

As for Bondsmiths, they literally do exactly what Honor's intent is -- they bond things together. I can't see how they could be any more Honor-leaning. The fact that one can bond the Nightwatcher seems irrelevant.

For Dalinar, yes. But the order blurb for them says:

Quote

Brandon Sanderson

Bondsmith

I will unite

Bondsmith oaths are focused on unity, unification, and bringing others together. However, this is a loose theme, as there are so few Bondsmiths—and the three sources of their powers are so different in personality—that the oaths can end up taking a variety of different shapes, depending on the situation.

Anyone can become a Bondsmith, subject to persuading one of the three spren who grant Bondsmith powers. Those powers tend to work differently for one Bondsmith than another, and even those Surges they share with other Orders tend to work differently for Bondsmiths.

The Bondsmiths are unusual in that there are never more than three full members. Historically, they worked to resolve disputes and help set up functioning governments. Even though there can only be three full members, there were times that some Bondsmiths did take squires. Beyond that, many of the retinues that protected the Bondsmiths were considered members of the Order–going so far as to swear oaths, even though they didn’t have a spren and never would. Some even called this the most pure form of being a Radiant, because these were oaths sworn not in the name of gaining powers, but simply for the good of the oaths themselves.

Bondsmiths are generally the heart and soul of the Radiants, the most protected and highly regarded of the Orders, capable of doing incredible things with the nature of oaths, bonds, and power. The Order, including the aforementioned squires and attendants, tends to attract the peacemakers of the world, those who want to bring people together rather than divide them.

The Ten Orders of Knights Radiant (June 9, 2020)

This to me indicates that Bondmiths likely could vary much more greatly than other orders, both in Oaths and in personality, and as such assigning them a side will not go particularly well. Also, we know that Oaths come from the fundamental nature of the spren, and so the Nightwatcher being a Bondsmith spren would likely have a pretty large effect. 

Edited November 2, 2020 by beewall
Remove a bit of duplication

[Frustration]

Yes but at the Shattering of Adonalsium all investiture was assigned a Shard, so The Stormfather could totally be Honor.

[Guest Somebody from Scadrial]

On 10/29/2020 at 10:05 AM, Stormwalker said:

Of the three Bondsmith spren -- The Nightwatcher, the Stormfather, and the Sibling -- it is generally accepted that the Nightwatcher is Cultivation's spren and the Stormfather is Honor's. However, recently this has struck me as a bit odd. We are told (via WoB) that the storm on Roshar, as well as the spren and the parsh people existed on Roshar pre-Honor's arrival. So shouldn't we expect that the Stormfather existed as the spren of the Storm before Honor arrived? Obviously the idea that the Stormfather being Honor's spren makes sense in the current times, now that Honor has given him extra power/sentience. However, do we actually have any evidence besides this that the Stormfather is actually his spren? Why couldn't Honor, in his last days, give this power to a different spren? That's why I'm starting to think that of the three, it is really the Sibling that was Honor's spren, and that the Stormfather is a tertiary spren (perhaps of Adonalsium, who presumably made the storm).

Of the theory that the Sibling is Honor's spren we also have one other interesting point of evidence. We are told in WoR, that the Radiants built Urithuru where it is, rather than in Alethela, because they wanted it to be "closer to Honor". We also have a variety of evidence that the Sibling was fundamentally related to the tower itself. Perhaps the Sibling, being the spren of Honor, was located in the mountain of Urithuru (right next to the Cultivation's Valley, as seems fitting), and this is what the Radiants meant when they said they wanted it close to Honor -- that is, close to his spren.

We also know, that during the time of the recreance, that the Sibling went to 'sleep' -- whatever that means. Whether this was due to the recreance itself, Melishi's (who I suspect was bonded to him) role in the capturing of Ba-Ado-Mishram, or, as this theory allows, due to Honor's own death, perhaps this was the reason Honor chose not to give a part of himself to the Sibling, and instead went with the Stormfather.

Actually I believe there is a WoB saying that the three are children of Tanavast and Cultivation's host's which means none of them predate the two. The reason Urithiru is closer to Honor is because it's closer to the Origin