Physical beings and objects in the Shadesmar - where are their "spren" (beads)?

[+robardin he/him]

The whole "existing physically in the cognitive realm" is weird, TBH. So what happens when a living person crosses into the CR, what happens to their "bead" - it's replaced with the "actual" person, right? Well, what about stuff you create or change physically in the CR - do they only "beadify" if/when they're taken to the Physical Realm?

Like, The Wind's Pleasure was a ship that had a "spren" (bead) that resisted being changed into water by Shallan's Soulcasting, and argued back, because it had been a ship for a long time, people anthropomorphize ships, and it wanted to continue "to serve" as a ship. So what if humans built a ship in Shadesmar, assembling it with wood transported from the Physical Realm, at a shipyard in Silverlight? Would that ship have a bead/spren?

If the answer is "only when it gets to the Physical Realm", then what if after many years of use in Shadesmar that putative Lux Argenti finally entered into the Physical Realm, pushed through Cultivation's Perpendicularity to sail directly on the Shardpool in the Horneater Peaks or something. Would the "spren" of that ship now remember everything that happened with it in its "lifetime" in the CR?

And if so, doesn't that imply that there is a Cognitive Realm behind the Cognitive Realm, so to speak?

[Honorless he/him]

People's souls don't manifest in Shadesmar as beads but as flames. When you physically enter the Cognitive Realm of Roshar, your body appears where your "flame" was.

You can't change a bead into anything else, you can use a bead to change the object it corresponds to in the Physical Realm.

If something is manifested from the Physical into the Cognitive then depending on the method used, they are either only a Cognitive remnant of the Physical thing, or apparently the thing itself, both Physically and Cognitively.

[+Bzhydack he/him]

8 hours ago, Krox said:

 

Your clothes will have beads, right - so if we turn this question into a simpler one: What happens to the beads of your clothes as you enter Shadesmar?

 

They disapear and "transform" into your clothes.

[Honorless he/him]

5 minutes ago, Kings_way said:

Are you saying that instead of a bead in the cognitive realm, a cup in the CR would have it's thoughts/memories/cognition inside itself instead of in a bead? 

Possibly, depending on how exactly the cup was manifested, we haven't seen this particular situation in the Rosharan subastral though. Heck, we've only seen Cognitive remnants being summoned (SH) and actually "manifesting" something into the Cognitive has only been mentioned, we don't know how it's done but the spren apparently do it. We don't know what exactly happens over on the Physical side, is the thing pulled into the Cognitive or copied in a way? We have also been told that one could exist partially in both the Physical and the Cognitive, perhaps the aforementioned trick has something to do with that. 

[+Krox he/him]

Your clothes will have beads, right - so if we turn this question into a simpler one: What happens to the beads of your clothes as you enter Shadesmar?

[+Krox he/him]

On 10/21/2020 at 2:56 PM, robardin said:

Like, The Wind's Pleasure was a ship that had a "spren" (bead) that resisted being changed into water by Shallan's Soulcasting, and argued back, because it had been a ship for a long time, people anthropomorphize ships, and it wanted to continue "to serve" as a ship. So what if humans built a ship in Shadesmar, assembling it with wood transported from the Physical Realm, at a shipyard in Silverlight? Would that ship have a bead/spren?

If the answer is "only when it gets to the Physical Realm", then what if after many years of use in Shadesmar that putative Lux Argenti finally entered into the Physical Realm, pushed through Cultivation's Perpendicularity to sail directly on the Shardpool in the Horneater Peaks or something. Would the "spren" of that ship now remember everything that happened with it in its "lifetime" in the CR?

And if so, doesn't that imply that there is a Cognitive Realm behind the Cognitive Realm, so to speak?

 

1 hour ago, Bzhydack said:

They disapear and "transform" into your clothes.

This would be the answer regarding the two first questions, just in reverse. But for the last question I'm a bit lost..!

[+Bzhydack he/him]

1 minute ago, Krox said:

And if so, doesn't that imply that there is a Cognitive Realm behind the Cognitive Realm, so to speak?

It is. Its Spiritual Realm ;-)

Everything, no matter in CR or PR, have Ideal of itself, Basicly soul. So, yes.

[+robardin he/him]

5 minutes ago, Krox said:

This would be the answer regarding the two first questions, just in reverse. But for the last question I'm a bit lost..!

What I mean is, imagine something which first became physical in the Cognitive Realm - my example of the ship that was built from raw wood in Silverlight.

A ship built in the Physical Realm has a bead in Shadesmar, which is the realm of thought and concept, which is why spren live there/originate from there.

Objects develop an identity that deepens with time, an identity as given to it by sentient beings thinking about it, as we see when Shallan has to convince things to change to Soulcast them. They don't just resist changing, they argue back. This is also something of the Cognitive Realm.

I would think that a ship built in Silverlight would not have a Shadesmar bead if and until it were pushed into the Physical Realm - that would be the "reverse scenario" of something physical, like one's clothing, "replacing" the bead version of it in Shadesmar if the wearer were to gate through as a living being.

So what would that "new bead" be like? If the bead has an identity and memory of "being a ship" the way that The Wind's Pleasure did, despite there never having been a "Shadesmar bead" version of it before, doesn't that imply there was a Cognitive version of it all along?

If the relationship between Shadesmar and the Physical Realm is akin to that of objects casting a shadow on the wall, then what does it mean to be a shadow of a shadow, or for something to be real in the shadow world?

[+Krox he/him]

13 hours ago, robardin said:

So what would that "new bead" be like? If the bead has an identity and memory of "being a ship" the way that The Wind's Pleasure did, despite there never having been a "Shadesmar bead" version of it before, doesn't that imply there was a Cognitive version of it all along?

If the relationship between Shadesmar and the Physical Realm is akin to that of objects casting a shadow on the wall, then what does it mean to be a shadow of a shadow, or for something to be real in the shadow world?

@Bzhydack did sort of reply on this, the shadow of the shadow would be the Ideal Self of the object.

But I guess the clothes of someone entering Shadesmar will recieve some sort of cognisance as their bead will "dissapear" in order to remember everything that happens to them while in the CR. The items buildt in the CR might have some sort of internal feeling of self as long as it is inside the CR, which turns into the spren/bead once it leaves?

[ShrubSeph he/they]

On 10/21/2020 at 1:51 PM, Honorless said:

People's souls don't manifest in Shadesmar as beads but as flames. When you physically enter the Cognitive Realm of Roshar, your body appears where your "flame" was.

You can't change a bead into anything else, you can use a bead to change the object it corresponds to in the Physical Realm.

If something is manifested from the Physical into the Cognitive then depending on the method used, they are either only a Cognitive remnant of the Physical thing, or apparently the thing itself, both Physically and Cognitively.

Are you saying that instead of a bead in the cognitive realm, a cup in the CR would have it's thoughts/memories/cognition inside itself instead of in a bead? 

[Realmatic Shadow]

From what I've understood of how the Realms work, the object itself, when fully manifested in the Cognitive, would be the bead of it, so to speak. As a general rule, the beads you see in Shadesmar are simply a representation of the Cognitive aspect of the object, and when an object is drawn into the Cognitive Realm fully, this representation is no longer needed and instead the Cognitive aspect would simply be the object itself at that point

[Daggon Forescout he/him]

On 10/22/2020 at 11:54 AM, robardin said:

Objects develop an identity that deepens with time, an identity as given to it by sentient beings thinking about it, as we see when Shallan has to convince things to change to Soulcast them. They don't just resist changing, they argue back. This is also something of the Cognitive Realm.

I would think that a ship built in Silverlight would not have a Shadesmar bead if and until it were pushed into the Physical Realm - that would be the "reverse scenario" of something physical, like one's clothing, "replacing" the bead version of it in Shadesmar if the wearer were to gate through as a living being.

So what would that "new bead" be like? If the bead has an identity and memory of "being a ship" the way that The Wind's Pleasure did, despite there never having been a "Shadesmar bead" version of it before, doesn't that imply there was a Cognitive version of it all along?

(emphasis added)

What's to say that there is no bead version of the ship? Instead of the bead of your clothes being replaced by your clothes when you travel into the cognitive realm, what if the physical an cognitive aspects merge into one. I think @Realmatic Shadow had the right idea. Your hypothetical ship in the cognitive realm wouldn't need some external cognitive version of itself to develop an identity. So long as it is in the cognitive realm it is perfectly capable of developing an identity itself. What it would look/sound like to communicate with the identity of the ship like Shallan did, that I don't know.