Countering Shardplate (Without Shards)

[Aspiring Writer]

I've been rereading the first two SA books in preparation for RoW, and my thoughts have been very interested in Shardplate. In particular, why haven't they made better tactics to counter them? Everyone focuses on getting shards to break through the plate, but we don't see them focus on the one major weakness it has... the eyeslit. And normally, when there's a weakness, people make a million ways to use that weakness to maximum effect. And my first thoughts on this were throwing a type of powder/liquid/chemical at the shareholder and blind them. It wouldn't be that hard to design something to break on impact and blind the person, even with their technology, and once blinded, a soldier could move in and have a far better chance at killing him. The Shardholder could try to block it, but I don't think he could effect keep powder from spreading and blinding him, and if enough are thrown, he is bounded to get some in his eyes. This or something similar is not suggested anywhere from what I've seen, so what are your thoughts on this?

[Experience he/him]

I mean, maybe? Actually that would be a really good idea, and wouldn't even have to be that complicated. They could just throw a handful of sand into their eyes. Actually, that would be hard to do without being close enough to be dead. So maybe a sand bomb? I like the idea.

[Chasmgoat he/him]

or some sort of gas grenade? like tear gas. Not sure if that kind of technology is possible on roshar...

[Frustration]

You forget, you have to

1. get something that would actually(permanently) blind them on impact
2. be able to at least(somewhat) reliably hit the faceplate in such a way that it gets into the eyes, from over six feet away(and that's Rosharan feet, so maybe closer to seven)

and that might be a problem, because a lot of what might be used to such effect is not available on Roshar. If you only temporarily blind them then they will just back up and clear vision, disengaging for a shardbear isn't that hard we see Dalinar and Adolin do it often. Aditionally you have to hit the faceplate, we see Shardbearers dodging balista arrows, so I doubt a thrown object would be very reliable. 

Now a much better option(in my opinion) is to remove the helm, that would leave them extremely vulnerable.

[kaellok he/him]

1 hour ago, Frustration said:

You forget, you have to

1. get something that would actually(permanently) blind them on impact
2. be able to at least(somewhat) reliably hit the faceplate in such a way that it gets into the eyes, from over six feet away(and that's Rosharan feet, so maybe closer to seven)

and that might be a problem, because a lot of what might be used to such effect is not available on Roshar. If you only temporarily blind them then they will just back up and clear vision, disengaging for a shardbear isn't that hard we see Dalinar and Adolin do it often. Aditionally you have to hit the faceplate, we see Shardbearers dodging balista arrows, so I doubt a thrown object would be very reliable.

Honestly, I think you're overstating both points a bit.  Getting something that causes the opponent's Shardbearer to disengage at a point that you choose without it being from 'literally drowning them in dead bodies' would be huge; the blinding need only be temporary, so long as it's fairly complete.  The only other alternative that we've really seen in WoK and WoR at least for countering Shardplate (besides the aforementioned pile of dead bodies) is stringing ropes across to trip them up and limit their mobility.

The idea of chemical warfare is probably one that hasn't been introduced on Roshar yet, otherwise they would absolutely have some kind of mustard gas equivalent.  This probably hasn't percolated much because of the strong influence that Honor has had on the people.  Even though the Alethi as a people tend to value appearance of honor rather than its actuality, being seen to work on such weapons would probably be at least one bridge too far even for them.  Jah Keved and Alethkar are the nations with the most Shardplate, and the ones which are bound by tightest to the semblance of honor (and also the ones that we see most on-screen).  Other nations would have more impetus to create methods to counter Plate, but have much fewer examples to test the efficacy on.  It's also possible that they have these weapons in their arsenal, but we simply haven't seen them or seen it discussed because it was irrelevant to the events happening on-page.

[Frustration]

8 hours ago, kaellok said:

Honestly, I think you're overstating both points a bit.  Getting something that causes the opponent's Shardbearer to disengage at a point that you choose without it being from 'literally drowning them in dead bodies' would be huge; the blinding need only be temporary, so long as it's fairly complete.  The only other alternative that we've really seen in WoK and WoR at least for countering Shardplate (besides the aforementioned pile of dead bodies) is stringing ropes across to trip them up and limit their mobility.

The idea of chemical warfare is probably one that hasn't been introduced on Roshar yet, otherwise they would absolutely have some kind of mustard gas equivalent.  This probably hasn't percolated much because of the strong influence that Honor has had on the people.  Even though the Alethi as a people tend to value appearance of honor rather than its actuality, being seen to work on such weapons would probably be at least one bridge too far even for them.  Jah Keved and Alethkar are the nations with the most Shardplate, and the ones which are bound by tightest to the semblance of honor (and also the ones that we see most on-screen).  Other nations would have more impetus to create methods to counter Plate, but have much fewer examples to test the efficacy on.  It's also possible that they have these weapons in their arsenal, but we simply haven't seen them or seen it discussed because it was irrelevant to the events happening on-page.

While useful, it would take a huge amount of time to make and expensive to mass produce, you forget that plant life on Roshar is much more limited than on earth, a lot of what we have they would only dream of. Sand and oil are the only things we have seen that could fulfill this purpose and it would be about ten seconds, and if it ever became a big deal, then they would start using eye shields.

It's just not an economicly viable option.

[kaellok he/him]

4 hours ago, Frustration said:

While useful, it would take a huge amount of time to make and expensive to mass produce, you forget that plant life on Roshar is much more limited than on earth, a lot of what we have they would only dream of. Sand and oil are the only things we have seen that could fulfill this purpose and it would be about ten seconds, and if it ever became a big deal, then they would start using eye shields.

It's just not an economicly viable option.

Halting the charge of a Shardbearer without using dozens or hundreds of bodies that are virtually guaranteed to become corpses is pretty huge, even if it's only for 10 seconds.  A lot can happen in that amount of time; see WoR when Adolin being slowed by dealing with a bunch of rope nearly caused the charge of his army to fail.

There's a lot of chemicals and inorganic compounds that should still exist on Roshar.  For instance, it'd be really odd if there was no chlorine, which would likely also be effective at taking a Plate-wearer out of the fight.  You know, if they had the knowledge of how to weaponize it.

Even aside from chemical weapons, however, the inability to test anti-Plate weapons effectively likely plays a huge role in the lack of anti-Plate weapons.  Those that do have Plate use the easy option, and field Shards as a counter.

[Frustration]

4 minutes ago, kaellok said:

There's a lot of chemicals and inorganic compounds that should still exist on Roshar.  For instance, it'd be really odd if there was no chlorine, which would likely also be effective at taking a Plate-wearer out of the fight.  You know, if they had the knowledge of how to weaponize it.

If that were a reasonable option I might join in being skeptical, however isolating Chlorine is far Far beyond what they are able to do.

[Much-ado-about-Mishram he/him]

I do think it is possible that through chemistry something could be invented that could induce the effect you are proposing (Greek Fire was invented in a comparable time and concentrated strong acids and bases were being manufactured and used at least as early as the medieval times). I wonder if this is not something that they would have thought to develop as a society, though. Given the abilities granted by stormlight (radiants, fabrials, etc.) it seems like they have invested much more study into fabrial engineering and harnessing stormlight to do things for them than chemistry. A lot of their problems may have been more easily solved through investiture than through traditional STEM fields. Maybe it is my background, but we don't see a lot of study of chemistry, physics, or biology in Roshar. Shallan seems to be one of the few people interested in biology given just about everything she observes she is coming up with theories about instead of having already learned them. All the brightest minds are busy investigating interesting things like fabrials and realmatics and not bothering with boring things like chemistry...

[Aspiring Writer]

33 minutes ago, Frustration said:

If that were a reasonable option I might join in being skeptical, however isolating Chlorine is far Far beyond what they are able to do.

there are a lot of chemicals that they would have been able to get their hands on, like quick lime, and even dirt honestly wouldn't be a bad option. Blinding them for even a few seconds can help them win the battle. Remember, in Wok, they mention how peeing in your pants might distract and kill you. Imagine blinded for a few seconds and having your eyes burn for the rest of the battle. Especially since they are otherwise seen as invincible.

 

42 minutes ago, Much-ado-about-Mishram said:

I do think it is possible that through chemistry something could be invented that could induce the effect you are proposing (Greek Fire was invented in a comparable time and concentrated strong acids and bases were being manufactured and used at least as early as the medieval times). I wonder if this is not something that they would have thought to develop as a society, though. Given the abilities granted by stormlight (radiants, fabrials, etc.) it seems like they have invested much more study into fabrial engineering and harnessing stormlight to do things for them than chemistry. A lot of their problems may have been more easily solved through investiture than through traditional STEM fields. Maybe it is my background, but we don't see a lot of study of chemistry, physics, or biology in Roshar. Shallan seems to be one of the few people interested in biology given just about everything she observes she is coming up with theories about instead of having already learned them. All the brightest minds are busy investigating interesting things like fabrials and realmatics and not bothering with boring things like chemistry...

True, but I find it hard to believe they would not see the one obvious weakness in the eyeslit and find some way to exploit it in a way that has easy access for anyone. Investiture in the form of fabriels and radients aren't available to everyone, and this is a way to disable them enough that even common soldiers might be able to kill them.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

First of all, as Frustration alluded, equipping a significant number of normal soldiers with chemicals or concentrated acids is not economically viable, so it’ll have to be something cheap like sand or quick lime, something powdery and easily obtainable in large quantities. Second of all, when it comes to the risk/benefit ratio, I feel like people are over inflating the benefit, and ignoring the risk. Because there is risk. If everyone within 20 feet of a shard bearer took the few seconds needed to take out casks of sand, aim so they actually have a chance, throw them, then redraw their weapons (remember they can’t hold a weapon in their primary hand and throw simultaneously), I imagine it’d take a few seconds. A few seconds during which the shardbearer will probably have moved those 20 feet and killed you. Never mind the risk from all the other enemies without shards. It’s not like they’ll just sit there as you virtually disarm yourselves.

And the benefit is small, too. People cannot reliably throw with accuracy from more than 20 feet or so on average, and the splash effect of a cask is quite limited (hit anywhere but directly over the eyeslit, and the sand will all go outward, parallel to the armor). Also, the slit is small. When Kaladin killed Helaran, I believe he said the slit was just wide enough for a knife. Plus, then can cover their eyeslit with their gauntlet, once they see everyone pulling out flasks of sand. And all for what, so you can blind your opponent for maybe 20-30 seconds? And it would only have a significant chance of killing them if you had your own shardbearer. Otherwise, they could swing blindly with their Blade, keeping you from getting close enough before they retreat. Which would be valuable in battle, stalling the enemy shardbearer’s momentum, but let me put it this way. As I figure, you have about an equal chance of blinding them as breaking a piece of Shardplate through sheer overwhelming numbers. Which would you prefer to accomplish? 

Last, I want to point out that Shardplates are not that common on average. The fact that our characters are mostly from Alethkar or Jah Keved really biases us. Most soldiers might see a dozen battles before they fight in one with an a enemy shardbearer, and that reduces the benefits of the blinding strategy even further.

[Nellac]

I think most of the reasons this wouldn't work have been noted, but here's one more. If someone did try something like throwing sand in a shard bearer's eyes the most likely thing that will happen is a couple of seconds of them being blinded. During this time they can either retreat or home their gauntlet over their eye slit. Once they can see again their first order of business would be to hunt down and kill every soldier who assisted in that particular attack. This would set the research way back as new people would have to come up with the idea on their own and try to survive testing it