Who is the killer?

[Schneeente]

Hoi guys and girls! 

Who doesn't know at least one person who "knew it from the start", "had told you so", "has seen the carefully hidden clues 2 books ago that nobody else has picked up on"... 

This is the thread to go on the record. 

 

Tell us who you think did it and why/how. Looking forward to it. I think hoiditthroughthegrapevine made a very convincing argument for Ishnah. But despite that the favorite theory in this forum seems to be that it was Formless. 

 

If I have to go on the record with the knowledge I have right now: I say Gaz is the killer. He's mentally weak. He's easily blackmailable because he is addicted to gambling. And we all know that the character of the person doesn't change because you become a squire or even a radiant. (hope Teft is doing good nowadays) 

Edited October 2, 2020 by Schneeente

[Schneeente]

So far the prevailing theory gets confirmed by this poll. I'd love to read the reasons for the different picks ~ 

And so far nobody suspects Adolin's guards... 

[Rainier]

10 hours ago, Schneeente said:

And so far nobody suspects Adolin's guards... 

Turns out we're all completely gullible. All Mraize has to do to throw us off the scent is...deny it was them.

[Schneeente]

I like how divided we are on the subject.

 

12 people think it's formless.

9 people think it's Ishnah.

10 people think it's someone else.

 

That's pretty well done by Mr. Sanderson! I'm sure our suspicions will change during the following chapters whenever we get some more clues. But if we get closer to the spy of we maybe just play into his or her hands.. who knows. Exciting

[Ixthos he/him]

I was seriously wondering if it was Pattern, but after hearing the theory it was Formless I think that makes more sense.

[Karger he/him]

Gaz is definitely emotionally vulnerable but I also don't think the GBs would trust him as an operative even after compromising him.  They might pump him for information but actually giving him tasks seems too risky.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Karger

[Xerun]

On 04/10/2020 at 5:19 AM, Rainier said:

Turns out we're all completely gullible. All Mraize has to do to throw us off the scent is...deny it was them.

To be fair, I don’t know that Mraize has ever lied. 
 

my craziest theory (and I one I barely even consider most of the time). Is that the Ghostbloods aren’t as bad as we think. We get such a negative view of them but that’s cause most of our information comes from Jasnah. But she loves an assassination more then anyone in the series. 

[Karger he/him]

59 minutes ago, Xerun said:

my craziest theory (and I one I barely even consider most of the time). Is that the Ghostbloods aren’t as bad as we think. We get such a negative view of them but that’s cause most of our information comes from Jasnah. But she loves an assassination more then anyone in the series. 

I do not think we are meant to see the GBs as evil.  Just selfish.

Edited October 5, 2020 by Karger

[Schneeente]

Hmmm, they act pretty ruthlessly once their interests are concerned. Trying to kill Jasnah, not caring about the additional casualties.. I don't say that they are evil, many organizations or people act that way, but ... yeah, ruthlessly selfish fits them better than "evil". 

 

Latest summary:

 

19 Formless

14 Ishnah

15 "other"

[Rainier]

3 hours ago, Xerun said:

To be fair, I don’t know that Mraize has ever lied. 

Yeah, I just thought it was perfect that Mraize simply says, no, not the soldiers, and everyone here is like, yup, it can't be the soldiers.

There are reasons for this, starting with the fact that it would be dumb, from an author's standpoint, to waste a mystery on something mundane. The point of finding who killed Ialai is to draw Shallan deeper into the Ghostbloods. The assassination needs to serve a purpose in the story, which is simply not served if the answer is a simply spy. The spy has to be....special, somehow.

1 hour ago, Schneeente said:

19 Formless

14 Ishnah

15 "other"

Updated to 21 / 15 / 15.

I prefer a different split: 25 think is was Shallan, 26 think it was not Shallan. For all the gnashing I've heard about how problematic and/or actually measurably harmful it would be to play into the murderous hidden identity trope, it sure seems to be the favorite. 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Rainier said:

I prefer a different split: 25 think is was Shallan, 26 think it was not Shallan. For all the gnashing I've heard about how problematic and/or actually measurably harmful it would be to play into the murderous hidden identity trope, it sure seems to be the favorite. 

In this very scientific poll.  In case it was not obvious that I am being sarcastic this method of polling is based on whoever moves to this particular thread at the right time and Formless is at the top of the page.

Edited October 6, 2020 by Karger

[Schneeente]

On 3.10.2020 at 9:19 PM, Rainier said:

Turns out we're all completely gullible. All Mraize has to do to throw us off the scent is...deny it was them.

Nope, someone has just voted for the guards! Not everyone is gullible!   

A rather surprising number think that Ialai killed herself.. hmm. 

I still think Brandon Sanderson did a great job, the community is torn whom to blame. Looking forwards to the clues. 

[Zelly]

I think it's one of Shallan's band of Lightweaver guards like Gaz or Vathah.....but it's not really them, it's an imposter:

Mraize has a lightweaver of his own in the Ghostbloods.  This person stalked one of the Shallan's group, observed them over time and learned their mannerisms, killed them, then took their place. 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Zelly said:

Mraize has a lightweaver of his own in the Ghostbloods.  This person stalked one of the Shallan's group, observed them over time and learned their mannerisms, killed them, then took their place. 

That would be kind of cool.  I don't think it happened but it is possible.

[Crucible of Shards he/him]

1 hour ago, Zelly said:

I think it's one of Shallan's band of Lightweaver guards like Gaz or Vathah.....but it's not really them, it's an imposter:

Mraize has a lightweaver of his own in the Ghostbloods.  This person stalked one of the Shallan's group, observed them over time and learned their mannerisms, killed them, then took their place. 

Or it could be a kandra 

Edited October 7, 2020 by Crucible of Shards

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

Who is Formless? Im drawing a blank on him/her/it.

Also, regarding the morality of the Ghostbloods, they are a self-interested third party, willing to play any side to get what they want. I think they are something like a more evil version of Hoid or the 17th Shard. Pretty sure that they will be mostly villanious down the line. 

[Karger he/him]

3 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said:

Who is Formless? Im drawing a blank on him/her/it.

Shallan's fourth alter.

[Schneeente]

• Formless  23
• Ishnah  24

 

So much for "put Formess on top of the poll and most people will vote for her"  

[dgreene196]

If Adolin and Shallan take any of her squires (or Lightweaver underlings, if they've progressed that far) to Lasting Integrity, then it's definitely someone on that trip.

[LukeWasTaken he/him]

I agree with the Ishnah theory on this one. I am pretty sure I saw him vent.

[Toaster Retribution he/him]

21 hours ago, Karger said:

Shallan's fourth alter.

Thanks. Read the Formless-thread directly after posting that comment, so I’m up to speed now :-)

[Aon Tia she/her]

I did vote for Ishnah she does kind of appeared from nowhere and has proved too useful by far

but I really think that formless doing it would be so much more scary and interesting. For formless to gain control of Shallan long enough to kill ialai... when shallan does not even acknowledge her existence! Ooh! 

[Karger he/him]

22 hours ago, The Traveller said:

but I really think that formless doing it would be so much more scary and interesting. For formless to gain control of Shallan long enough to kill ialai... when shallan does not even acknowledge her existence! Ooh! 

For this to work Formless would also have to have prepared to kill Ialai and been able to take control of her for long enough to get the murder weapon and hide it where Shallan can't find it but have access to it at the time.  Leaving aside all my other arguments Formless's very name implies that she does not have much sense of self yet.

[Aon Tia she/her]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

For this to work Formless would also have to have prepared to kill Ialai and been able to take control of her for long enough to get the murder weapon and hide it where Shallan can't find it but have access to it at the time.  Leaving aside all my other arguments Formless's very name implies that she does not have much sense of self yet.

That is why the idea is scary to me. Because that would suggest that Shallan is not in as much control as she would have us believe. 
but like I said Ishnah is where my money is at.

[Seloun]

I think the best argument for Ishnah is to note that she's the most likely person who had access to be a Ghostblood. Her whole schtick for getting close to Shallan is by trying to convince Shallan that she wants to join the Ghostbloods; this is classic misdirection since obviously someone who wants to join the Ghostbloods wouldn't already be one.

First, her cover story - which is actually probably completely true!

Quote

“I…” Ishnah took a deep breath. “I was trained as a spy for House Hamaradin. In Vamah’s court? I know information gathering, message coding, observation techniques, and how to search a room without revealing what I’ve done.”

“So? If you’re so useful, what happened?”

“Your people happened. The Ghostbloods. I’d heard of them, whispered of by Brightlady Hamaradin. She crossed them somehow, and then…” She shrugged. “She ended up dead, and everyone thought it might have been one of us who did it. I fled and ended up in the underground, working for a petty gang of thieves. But I could be so much more..."

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 428). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Most likely, she really was a spy for Haramadin, and the Ghostbloods did assassinate her, and everyone really did think it was one of the spies...because she was the Ghostblood double agent spy who killed the Brightlady (note this works for Hamaradin and Ianai...). Easiest way to lie is to tell the truth; whatever means Shallan could have used to verify her story would probably have merely confirmed what she said.

Second, Mraize is the one who provides her background check:

 

Quote

Ishnah has overinflated her importance to you. She was indeed involved in espionage for House Hamaradin, as she told you, but she was merely an assistant to the true spies. We have determined that she is safe to allow close to you, though her loyalties should not be trusted too far. If you eliminate her, we will help cover up the disappearance, at your request. But we have no objection to you retaining her services.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 509). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

This is actually pretty masterful, since it both clears Ishnah and triggers some good old fashioned reverse-psychology in Shallan:

Quote

So much for hoping Ishnah had information about the Ghostbloods she could use. The letter practically boiled with possessiveness. They would “allow” Ishnah to be close to her? Storms, they acted like they owned her already.

Sanderson, Brandon. Oathbringer: Book Three of the Stormlight Archive (p. 509). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

So everything Shallan has been told about Ishnah is the complete truth; she's just been carefully mislead and comes to the wrong conclusions. Indeed, everything in her history and Mraize's letter point to her being a Ghostblood agent if you start with that assumption. It's possible she's not actually a Ghostblood, but this is her entry test (much like Shallan's), though the difference is likely moot.