A reminder and a position

[Justice]

Hi all,

I keep seeing the position that someone who honestly seeks the freedom of spren would not use an enslaving fabrial to communicate their desire to end this practice. I would simply remind these people that Ruin could preserve to ensure further ruin and Preservation could destroy to preserve. Brando builds contradictions into his characterization and magic systems and thus we cannot use absolutes to predict plot outcomes. If shards can contradict their intent in the short term for larger goals certainly splinters and people can do the same. 
 

The surgically targeted communique to Navani using a spanreed to shutter her dispersement of conjoined and other fabrial technology is not some fundamental violation of absolute beliefs that renders it immutably either ingenuous or contradictory. A last-ditch effort by those with similar ends who would prefer to redirect the behavior of a dominant set of compatriots is more likely.

Speculation given this set of assumptions: it isn’t a “sibling”. It isn’t Odium. It is a Wilshaper trying to avoid splitting the front against odium before things cross a line. 

[+Oltux72]

10 hours ago, Justice said:

Speculation given this set of assumptions: it isn’t a “sibling”. It isn’t Odium. It is a Wilshaper trying to avoid splitting the front against odium before things cross a line. 

Why does that unknown Willshaper not provide further evidence?

[GudThymes]

10 hours ago, Justice said:

I keep seeing the position that someone who honestly seeks the freedom of spren would not use an enslaving fabrial to communicate their desire to end this practice

Thank you for posting this. I hadn't seen anyone making this claim and I never even thought of it as a possibility. But I agree with you even without using other inworld examples of similar contradictions.

Situations like this often appear in the real world. Oftentimes those who are being oppressed by a system (I don't think this is a stretch in the Navani scenario) will have to use the system as a means to effect change. It's unreasonable to argue that that invalidates their argument if they don't have an alternative.

While I'm not arguing for ends justify the means, I think there appropriate sacrifices we can make on the path of justice.

[Justice]

Thanks all. 

2 hours ago, Oltux72 said:

Why does that unknown Willshaper not provide further evidence?

Sorry, evidence of what? To be clear, my speculation is wild. I also like that it might be the Shin, but I’m enamored with the idea that it was the Mink who snuck the ruby to Navani. I have no evidence aside from thematic alignment, freedom and all. 

[Karger]

38 minutes ago, Justice said:

, but I’m enamored with the idea that it was the Mink who snuck the ruby to Navani. I have no evidence aside from thematic alignment, freedom and all. 

Ooooh.  Taking this further if the Mink is in fact a surgebinder perhaps he put the ruby their and sent the message at the behest of his spren.

[SturmOgre]

18 hours ago, Justice said:

Hi all,

I keep seeing the position that someone who honestly seeks the freedom of spren would not use an enslaving fabrial to communicate their desire to end this practice. I would simply remind these people that Ruin could preserve to ensure further ruin and Preservation could destroy to preserve. Brando builds contradictions into his characterization and magic systems and thus we cannot use absolutes to predict plot outcomes. If shards can contradict their intent in the short term for larger goals certainly splinters and people can do the same. 
 

The surgically targeted communique to Navani using a spanreed to shutter her dispersement of conjoined and other fabrial technology is not some fundamental violation of absolute beliefs that renders it immutably either ingenuous or contradictory. A last-ditch effort by those with similar ends who would prefer to redirect the behavior of a dominant set of compatriots is more likely.

Speculation given this set of assumptions: it isn’t a “sibling”. It isn’t Odium. It is a Wilshaper trying to avoid splitting the front against odium before things cross a line. 

I would also point out that if they didn't make their fabrial themselves, or ask for it to be made, and if using the fabrial does not cause any more suffering in and of itself, they wouldn't really be doing anything hypocritical.

[Halyo_Alex]

2 hours ago, SturmOgre said:

I would also point out that if they didn't make their fabrial themselves, or ask for it to be made, and if using the fabrial does not cause any more suffering in and of itself, they wouldn't really be doing anything hypocritical.

random crackpot thought; what if this person is a Radiant who's subspren (like windspren for windrunners) is the spren that Spanreeds use normally, and so they made a "proper" Spanreed ruby by "requesting" that subspren to inhabit the gemstone?

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Justice said:

Sorry, evidence of what? To be clear, my speculation is wild.

Unless that willshaper is an idiot he will explain to Navani what exactly she is doing wrong.Navani is not some kind of hedge witch. She is working in Urithiru for the Knights Radiant, led by a Bondsmith.Just making a claim that she is doing something wrong without details, proof or credentials is not going to work. Unless you are very far removed from average human psychology who will know that.

[+Bzhydack]

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Unless that willshaper is an idiot he will explain to Navani what exactly she is doing wrong.Navani is not some kind of hedge witch. She is working in Urithiru for the Knights Radiant, led by a Bondsmith.Just making a claim that she is doing something wrong without details, proof or credentials is not going to work. Unless you are very far removed from average human psychology who will know that.

Yep, thats right. Willshapers were freedom-seekers, but they also were engineers and builders. Even Venli was Listener Spren Sientist. Willshaper will explain all further, maybe even in-person. It was whole year, more and more Radiants apear in Dalinars forces, it will be nothing wierd if some Radiant from new order would come.

I think, it is Shin. It is statet i OB that Shins  HATE Spanreeds, but if they hate Spanreeds, they will hate Navanis Airship thousand times more. And they can use Truthless.