Gavilar - Possessed?

[rjl]

There's been a lot of discussion of the thoroughly unpleasant way Gavilar acts in the ROW prologue, but here's a theory on why he was like that. (Note this theory is born out of some discussion on the 17th Shard discord, this is my distillation of a conversation with various people in so don't credit me for the ideas)

Observations

In RoW Gavilar acts in an abusive manner towards Navani, he's dismissive and rude about his children, he's speaking of living forever and thinks everything is about him.

Conversely we know from previous books that:

1. He'd been reading "The Way of Kings" (which teaches far more moral behaviour)
2. He'd started talking about the codes of war (which minimally encourage respect and proper treatment)
3. He was getting visions from the StormFather teaching about uniting etc.
4. Jasnah had positives to say about him (laced through WoK particularly)
5. Sadeas criticised how he'd behaved at the end of his life BUT because it was the way Dalinar behaves in WoK i.e. morally
6. When bleeding out his dying requests are i) hiding a void sphere (who from we don't know) AND ii) leaving a message to make Dalinar read "the Way of Kings"

This set of actions AND his behaviour in the RoW prologue seem like two different people. 

Theory

Gavilar was being possessed or otherwise controlled/influenced by something Voidish - perhaps one of the unmade. This influence was i) fairly recent, recent enough to not colour many lasting memories of Gavilar, AND ii) ended before he died - so he was his "normal" self giving Szeth the message for Dalinar.

As an alternative the influence may have come on for brief periods at a time, so he was "normal" throughout the day but the voidish control would step in for a few hours here and there - pushing him towards certain actions.

Another supporting point of evidence for this is Aesudan's comments in Oathbringer - she said Gavilar had discovered ancient spren - but hadn't known what to do with them whereas she had gone a step further, the result being possessed palace guards AND her attempt to bond with Yelig-nar. If Gavilar discovered any voidspren or unmade it is highly likely that they had access to influence him in some way.

Counter evidence And Counter Theory

The key counter point to all of this is the Oathbringer prologue. In this Gavilar is nice and friendly to Eshonai implying he's not currently possessed, however he's speaking of bringing back the voidbringers - exactly what possession would lead to him wanting to do.

This gives rise to the counter theory that Gavilar was seeking to revive both the Fused and the KR and somehow take advantage of that for personal gain. If this was the case, then passing on the message about the Way of Kings to Dalinar would fit - continuing the KR side of the plan. BUT if he was only doing this to take advantage why continue now he's going to be dead? In this model Gavilar's dying request almost seems to require that he's set something in motion to bring himself back.

Summary

I'm not convinced on this but I think it's plausible - and I prefer the main theory here to the counter theory. I'm aware there will be other models too.

Edited August 5, 2020 by rjl

[Karger]

I don't think that Gavilar's behavior was necessarily as inconsistent as implied.  Gavilar wanted to be remembered.  This was his single driving ambition.  I am not sure he cared much what for.  He likely noted that Sunmaker "great men" were pretty common so if he wanted to be remembered eternally he would have to completely change the status quo.  Being responsible for the revival of the old war might do this.  There are plenty of accounts of likable, great men who are still somehow incapable of treating their spouses with respect and dignity.

42 minutes ago, rjl said:

This gives rise to the counter theory that Gavilar was seeking to revive both the Fused and the KR and somehow take advantage of that for personal gain. If this was the case, then passing on the message about the Way of Kings to Dalinar would fit - continuing the KR side of the plan. BUT if he was only doing this to take advantage why continue now he's going to be dead? In this model Gavilar's dying request almost seems to require that he's set something in motion to bring himself back.

I believe this is this case.  If he manages to actually pull this off (which he technically did) history might still credit him.  Also preventing a voidspren from falling into the wrong hands might have been just a reflexive act of "this would be bad.  I have to stop it."

Edited August 5, 2020 by Karger

[rjl]

9 hours ago, Karger said:

I don't think that Gavilar's behavior was necessarily as inconsistent as implied.  Gavilar wanted to be remembered.  This was his single driving ambition.  I am not sure he cared much what for.  He likely noted that Sunmaker "great men" were pretty common so if he wanted to be remembered eternally he would have to completely change the status quo.  Being responsible for the revival of the old war might do this.  There are plenty of accounts of likable, great men who are still somehow incapable of treating their spouses with respect and dignity.

I believe this is this case.  If he manages to actually pull this off (which he technically did) history might still credit him.  Also preventing a voidspren from falling into the wrong hands might have been just a reflexive act of "this would be bad.  I have to stop it."

If you're right then there's a high chance he's going to be coming back which I really don't want to see. Maybe the theory above is a way of rationalising him not coming back - but still hoping....

[Karger]

5 hours ago, rjl said:

If you're right then there's a high chance he's going to be coming back

Why?  Szeth still killed him.

[Rorzikel]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

Why?  Szeth still killed him.

There’s been an implication that Gavilar was trying to become a cognitive shadow. Personally I think he failed to do so before his untimely death and was referring to some other stage of his plans when he told Szeth to tell Thaidakar(? Or was it Restares?) that it was too late.

[Master Silver]

Can Shards bring back people who are long dead? Could Gavilar be Odium's champion? I know he is dead, but Shards are gods, Gavilar was at least a little invested if he was receiving visions, and there would be nothing like bringing Gavilar back and letting him see how his brother let his son die and took his wife, kingdom, and place as Honor's heir (even if not Honor's champion) to fill Gavilar with hatred. For a character that has been dead since chapter 1 of The Way of Kings Gavilar gets a lot of screen time. If Dalinar can combine three realms, so can Odium... meaning yank Gavilar out of the spiritual realm, show him a vision of everything that has happened twisting it just a touch, and then give him plate and blade. 

[Ascended]

Just from the hip we do know he was receiving the visions perhaps this was his way to unite them i.e the heralds, radiants, voidbringers, and Roshar. 

[LordTheodore]

Personally I don't see any evidence to disprove the simple explanation. That his treatment of Navani was due to him being annoyed that she interrupted his meeting. 

[+Bzhydack]

On 8.08.2020 at 5:55 PM, Master Silver said:

Can Shards bring back people who are long dead?

No, if Soul go Beyond. But if Human Mind is turned into Cognitiwe Shadow (basicly cognitive copy of soul made from Investiture)and this cognitive Shadow is still around, so yes, they can be brought back.

[+Oltux72]

8 hours ago, Bzhydack said:

No, if Soul go Beyond. But if Human Mind is turned into Cognitiwe Shadow (basicly cognitive copy of soul made from Investiture)and this cognitive Shadow is still around, so yes, they can be brought back.

Yet, is Gavilar a traitor? Would he truly fight to destroy Alethkar and kick his grandson of the throne? That seems contrary to all his ambitions.

[Master Silver]

If Gavilar gave Odium his pain, he absolutely would do that. Few people would stop and be logical if they saw their wife with their brother. Their first thought wouldn't be, well I was dead for 6 years and he is a good person. It would be, surely they were running around behind my back while I was alive. And if he is a cognitive shadow, he is essentially immortal and doesn't need an heir anymore. 

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

If Gavilar gave Odium his pain, he absolutely would do that.

Does Gavilar have pain? Dalinar felt guilt about causing Evi's death. Gavilar would be angry mostly.

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

Few people would stop and be logical if they saw their wife with their brother. Their first thought wouldn't be, well I was dead for 6 years and he is a good person. It would be, surely they were running around behind my back while I was alive. And if he is a cognitive shadow, he is essentially immortal and doesn't need an heir anymore. 

But he does need a kingdom. And giving Kholinar and the rest of Alethkar to the Singers means giving that up.

[Master Silver]

If Odium tells the Fused Gavilar is their champion then that is the way it would be. If they resist he can always remover their immortality. They let Moash join their ranks, so I wouldn't see it as a stretch for Gavilar to do the same, were he somehow resurrected

[GudThymes]

On 8/5/2020 at 3:04 PM, rjl said:

This set of actions AND his behaviour in the RoW prologue seem like two different people. 

Personally, I think that not having any explanation for this makes him more compelling and a better character. People are not the same person in private and in public. In the last two prologues we got to see that when Gavilar was in private he wasn't the same man that he was to the rest of the world. He was slowly changing his external self, from a warlord into what he thought was a "great man" using the Codes and SoH as a way to further his own selfish goals.

I think the Gavilar's story is over, he died and will not return. The purpose of the flashbacks (aside from plot, etc.) with Gavilar is to show that people are perceived differently depending on who is perceiving them and it is hard to judge the true character of a person.

What is the benefit to bringing Gavilar back to life (after 4 prologues showing his death)? So that he can be Odium's champion? The foil to Dalinar? Sure that could be a good reason, but why is that any better than letting Gavilar be his own troubled person and use a character we have seen up front become Odium's champion? Someone like Adolin or Moash?