+Child of Hodor Posted July 31, 2020 Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) TL;DR: Listeners heard a voice speaking to the Rhythms that led them to Szeth who they ordered to kill Gavilar. I rule out Ulim because he can't speak to the Rhythms. In OB Aesudan was singing to the Rhythms. She bragged about topping Gavilar, he only found one ancient spren, but didn't know how to bond it. She's got three and bonded Yelig-nar. She's singing to the Rhythms in OB because Yelig-nar can use the Rhythms and she's bonded to him. Yelig-nar was found by Gavilar, was in Kholinar that day and spoke through the Rhythms to help in Gavilar's murder. Detailed argument with quotes and WoBs: In the OB prologue it is stated that the Listeners found Szeth so quickly because a voice speaking to Rhythms led them to Szeth. Quote Klade claimed that a voice - speaking to the rhythms - had led him to this man who had confessed his skills when pressed. Ulim seems like the answer because he's a spren of Odium that worked with Venli later. The problem is Ulim does not speak to the Rhythms. I say that not just because he's not described as speaking to them, but he actually gets in trouble with the Fused for it. Quote Ulim sighed. "Bother." "You speak like a human, spren." Demid said. "Your service here was grand, but you use their ways, their language. I find that displeasing." Ulim rippled away across the stones. -- OB I-6 It must have been a different spren or other entity that can speak to the Rhythms. We see Timbre use the Rhythms, but even at the end of Oathbringer she coudn't speak, just pulse to them. Most non-radiant spren are kind of dumb (no offense if any spren are reading this). It's hard to believe one could sense what they needed in that moment, sense Szeth was exactly what they needed and connected the two. Plus have a motivation for doing it. Maybe it was an Unmade? We have the same motivation problem, why kill Gavilar? We don't know all that Gavilar was planning, maybe there was something the Unmade didn't like. Depending on how you interpret her, Aesudan seems to be saying Gavilar found one Unmade and wanted to bond it, but didn't know how. She topped with three Unmade and figuring out how to bond Yelig-Nar. Quote "I continued your father's work! I found the secret Elhokar. Spren, ancient spren. You can bond them!" "I've done what your father could not. Oh, he found one of the ancient spren, but he could never discover how to bond it." -- OB 84 Depends on what is meant by "ancient spren". Ulim is probably very old, but "ancient spren" reminds me of how Taravangian thinks of The Thrill. Quote An ancient, evil spren was not something he had the resources to tackle. - WoR I-14 The Thrill is too stupid to be the voice (sorry if the Thrill is reading this), but maybe Yelig-nar? When Kaladin approaches the Queen's chamber in Oathbringer she is singing a tune that Kaladin recognizes Quote "That's her voice, singing." I know that tune, Kaladin thought. Something about her soft song was familiar. ... Her song had fallen away to a hum. OB- Ch. 84 Singing at first, not just humming. Like with words. I think Kaladin recognizes it because he's heard the Listeners sing on the Shattered Plains during battles. It's not something he heard is mother sing in childhood. https://wob.coppermind.net/events/360/#e10909 Aesudan had bonded Yelig-nar before this scene, she'd swallowed the gemstone, she doesn't do it during the scene. She hadn't started using the surges, so she wasn't being consumed from within yet, like Amaram was. She's consumed in between this scene and the climax according to Odium when he instructs Amaram on using Yelig-nar. Quote "I have taken the gemstone into me and have harnessed Yelig-nar's power." Aesudan - OB Ch. 84 The reason Aesudan knows how to sing to the Rhythms is because she bonded Yelig-nar. Yelig-nar knows the Rhythms. Gavilar found an "ancient spren" but didn't know how to bond it. Aesudan bragged about figuring it out, likely meaning the same spren, Yelig-nar. That puts Yelig-nar in Kholinar w/ Gavilar ... with the Candlestick (Game of Clue, anyone?) That's the theory. Making some leaps, but that's what I enjoy doing Edited July 31, 2020 by Child of Hodor 6
Honorless he/him Posted July 31, 2020 Posted July 31, 2020 (edited) Huh, I was just wondering about other possible candidates for who it could've been Good work! Edited July 31, 2020 by Honorless 1
+Harrycrapper Posted July 31, 2020 Posted July 31, 2020 29 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said: Maybe it was an Unmade? We have the same motivation problem, why kill Gavilar? We don't know all that Gavilar was planning, maybe there was something the Unmade didn't like. Depending on how you interpret her, Aesudan seems to be saying Gavilar found one Unmade and wanted to bond it, but didn't know how. She topped with three Unmade and figuring out how to bond Yelig-Nar. I believe Odium himself orchestrated Gavilar's murder. The eventual results of that murder are the motivation. The Alethi needed to be goaded into going to war with the Parshendi. That war eventually drove them to summon the Everstorm which was the catalyst for the new Desolation. He had to act through one of his servants, and Yelig-Nar is a good candidate. 3
+Child of Hodor Posted July 31, 2020 Author Posted July 31, 2020 27 minutes ago, Harrycrapper said: I believe Odium himself orchestrated Gavilar's murder. The eventual results of that murder are the motivation. The Alethi needed to be goaded into going to war with the Parshendi. That war eventually drove them to summon the Everstorm which was the catalyst for the new Desolation. He had to act through one of his servants, and Yelig-Nar is a good candidate. That's a good point. They only began to use the forbidden form of Stormform out of desperation because they were losing badly to the Alethi. Might not have if they just leave with the gem Gavilar gave them. Big risk, because the Listeners where almost wiped out and if they had been there are no other Singers capable of summoning the Everstorm. But, he's a god and can see the future to an extent. Calculated risk.
Karger he/him Posted July 31, 2020 Posted July 31, 2020 2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: The problem is Ulim does not speak to the Rhythms. I say that not just because he's not described as speaking to them, but he actually gets in trouble with the Fused for it. Good work on this part I think we can safely edit that part of the coppermind. Yalig-nar does not seem sapaint. Also doesn't he need a host? Why not Nale's spren? It would seem a more obvious choice as it was in the area and we know from Timbre that at least some of them can. 1
Frustration Posted August 1, 2020 Posted August 1, 2020 5 hours ago, Karger said: Good work on this part I think we can safely edit that part of the coppermind. Yalig-nar does not seem sapaint. Also doesn't he need a host? Why not Nale's spren? It would seem a more obvious choice as it was in the area and we know from Timbre that at least some of them can. My theory is that it was Cultivation.
+Child of Hodor Posted August 1, 2020 Author Posted August 1, 2020 (edited) 20 hours ago, Karger said: Good work on this part I think we can safely edit that part of the coppermind. Yalig-nar does not seem sapaint. Also doesn't he need a host? Why not Nale's spren? It would seem a more obvious choice as it was in the area and we know from Timbre that at least some of them can. I am making the assumption that he is able to talk when he is not bonded, but we do know he can talk. Quote "Yelig-nar, called Blightwind, was one that could speak like a man, though often his voice was accompanied by the wails of those he consumed." WoK Ch. 45 epigraph Quote "Yelig-nar had great powers, perhaps the powers of all Surges compounded in one. He could trasform any Voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy. Curiously, three legends I found mention swallowing a gemstone to engage the processs. - OB Ch 95 epigraph I am assuming he can speak to the Rhythms because he has bonded and consumed, countless Singers through the years. He could have picked the Rhythms up that way, if he didn't originally. His voice is often, but not always accompanied by wails of his victims, so Klade could have heard one voice. You'd think he'd mention if he heard a voice accompanied by wailing. Nale's spren is interesting. I don't know if it can speak to the Rhythms, I assume Timbre can because she was bonding a Listener, which no Radiant spren had previously done. The Reachers we meet, including her own family, don't seem to speak that way. We've never heard a Highspren talk, maybe they can. It is out of Nale's normal MO. He likes to get the paperwork in order. Nale is a huge hypocrite, though. I could see him allowing his spren to aid a murder by some twisted logic. Edited August 1, 2020 by Child of Hodor
Karger he/him Posted August 2, 2020 Posted August 2, 2020 9 hours ago, Child of Hodor said: Nale's spren is interesting. I don't know if it can speak to the Rhythms, I assume Timbre can because she was bonding a Listener, which no Radiant spren had previously done. The Reachers we meet, including her own family, don't seem to speak that way. The Reachers seem to speak by sending vibrations through a copper wire.
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