Veil and radiant

[agrabes]

13 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I'm curious what you guys think about the wine scene from the new chapter:

 

I think this was revealed to be Ialai suspecting Shallan as a Ghostblood agent.  So this section with the wines was about her saying "yes, I know you're secretly a Ghostblood assassin here to kill me.  Get it over with."  I don't think it was intended to be saying that Ialai knew she was actually Shallan Davar and that Shallan is suffering from DID.

[Karger]

50 minutes ago, Ailvara said:

I'm curious what you guys think about the wine scene from the new chapter:

Ialai is telling Shallan that she knows she is not who she says she is(Ialai suspects she is with the GBs).  It is also a bit of parting advice and a sort of a threat.  You can't fake things forever nor can you fake them perfectly.  People will eventually catch on.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Karger

[Ailvara]

@agrabes @Karger that much is clear in the other parts of the conversation. I was more interested in the symbolism WRT which alter drinks which wine.

Edited August 18, 2020 by Ailvara

[Karger]

1 minute ago, Ailvara said:

which alert drinks which wine

You mean this?

Quote

• Pink, which typically has a distinct floral taste. It's said to assist alertness. This wine is actually a juice and has no alcoholic content^[99].
• Orange, fruity and with notes of ginger, although apparently it's not made of fruit.
• Yellow, which has a deep, "bold" taste while being weak enough to drink casually.
• Auburn, spicy and with a tasty aroma - this could be closest to Earth's red wine, as it's made of fermented fruit.
• Red, said to be "flavourful with a pleasant burn".
• Sapphire, with a taste of nuts and honey, made of lavis grain. It's usually infused, and the closest equivalent to Earth whiskey.
• Blue, tasting of berry and lemon.
• Violet, the strongest, typically with an aroma of sandalwood.^[100]

 

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

@agrabes @Karger that much is clear in the other parts of the conversation. I was more interested in the symbolism WRT which alter drinks which wine.

I don't think there was any.  In both cases (both of the wines Shallan drinks), Ialai is trying to hammer home that she knows Shallan isn't who she says she is.  The symbolism was that Ialai knows she's there on behalf of the Ghostbloods.  I don't think you can say there's any symbolism or meaning tied to Shallan and her personas/alters unless you can say that Ialai knew they existed.  

Clear wine = Ialai knows there is subterfuge going on - the symbolism being that the wine was specially processed to remove the color and hide its true nature the way the Ghostbloods hide themselves.

Orange wine = Ialai taking a shot at the Ghostbloods.  Saying that hiding your true nature (the wine is orange/sweet but its true nature is its sourness) and trying to gain power through sneaking around is inferior to openly wielding power and being honest about yourself and your intentions.

Blue wine = Ialai saying that the blue wine is the truly good thing - being open about what you are and what you stand for.  Not allowed for sneaky Ghostbloods.

Horneater white = Ialai directly says - this is you, a Ghostblood operative.  Silent and deadly.

[Karger]

7 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Clear wine = Ialai knows there is subterfuge going on - the symbolism being that the wine was specially processed to remove the color and hide its true nature the way the Ghostbloods hide themselves.

This analysis seems a bit better(I think anyway).

1 hour ago, Lightspine said:

So probably the most mystery-packed section of this chapter (beyond the fabrial stuff) is Ialai's wine talk. Let's see how it can be broken down.

I'm going to start off a bit backwards and look at the last one first, just because of the implications it has:

Because of this quote, I think each of Ialai's wines is supposed to represent a person. In my initial read, I thought that Ialai was trying to hint at Shallan's disguise with her clear and orange wines, but now I'm not so sure. I think it's valuable to consider other possibilities.

So, let's start from the beginning now with the clear:

Is this supposed to represent a person who was rescued from Alethkar? It is also somebody who Ialai admires as "sweet" and reminds her of Gavilar. My first thought is Gavinor, but I don't know how he fits the "Revealing what was truly inside" part. This is a person whose secrets have already been exposed, somebody who has become transparent. Could this apply to Restares?

I believe that Ialai is taking a jab at Dalinar here, largely because of the phrase "his creation will be discarded in favor of a truly strong or noble vintage." This could fit really will if the previous wine represents Gavinor, who Ialai is claiming to support.

This one is clear to me: the wine is Ialai herself. Or perhaps more broadly, the Sadeas family line. In this chapter, Ialai is clearly resigned to die. She sees it coming, even telling Shallan that “I won’t get to answer. They won’t let me.” This parallels the "After today, even this bit will be gone."

Uh, not quite sure if I actually uncovered anything here. I just want to present the idea that each wine might be representing somebody.

[agrabes]

Just now, Karger said:

This analysis seems a bit better(I think anyway).

 

I think you have to consider the context of the discussion.  Ialai immediately believes that Shallan was sent by the Ghostbloods to kill her.  Her whole conversation is about trying to force Shallan to admit it while gauging her character.  I don't think there's hidden meanings.  Doesn't mean there couldn't be, but I don't think so.

[Karger]

22 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I think you have to consider the context of the discussion.  Ialai immediately believes that Shallan was sent by the Ghostbloods to kill her.  Her whole conversation is about trying to force Shallan to admit it while gauging her character.  I don't think there's hidden meanings.  Doesn't mean there couldn't be, but I don't think so.

The quotes make it pretty clear(those did not carry) that they are talking about people and their natures.  She talks about how a specific wine reminds her of a person and so on.  Ialai already assumes she is dead.  She is just gauging her assassin before she pulls a Gavilar.

[Ailvara]

Ialai doesn't know about Shallan's personas but Brandon does so nothing stops him from inserting another layer of meaning into this conversation.

What I'm seeing is (though can't take credit for spotting that):

- Veil's wine: "clear", the winemakers took "great care to remove the rinds" to reveal "what was truly inside."

- Shallan's wine: "bland and flavorless", "weak", "powerless", "a hint of something wrong", "perfect for people who want to maintain appearances before others", a good-looking package to an inferior wine, a creation to be eventually discarded

- Third wine (Radiant is left): "perfect", "wonderful" and unique

- Fourth wine (fitting the discussion on Shallan's fourth secret identity): "invisible", "deadly", meant for Shallan ("I believe this is yours") but one she doesn't want to touch

[agrabes]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

The quotes make it pretty clear(those did not carry) that they are talking about people and their natures.  She talks about how a specific wine reminds her of a person and so on.  Ialai already assumes she is dead.  She is just gauging her assassin before she pulls a Gavilar.

Yeah, I noticed that was Lightspine's theory - that Ialai is making vague references to various people she knows about.  It's possible, could be a fun plot if it happens.  I just don't think it's likely based on the context of the conversation.  Like I said - I think she's becoming less and less subtle in telling Shallan "I'm pretty sure you're a Ghostblood agent sent to kill me.  So just get it over with."

1 hour ago, Ailvara said:

Ialai doesn't know about Shallan's personas but Brandon does so nothing stops him from inserting another layer of meaning into this conversation.

What I'm seeing is (though can't take credit for spotting that):

- Veil's wine: "clear", the winemakers took "great care to remove the rinds" to reveal "what was truly inside."

- Shallan's wine: "bland and flavorless", "weak", "powerless", "a hint of something wrong", "perfect for people who want to maintain appearances before others", a good-looking package to an inferior wine, a creation to be eventually discarded

- Third wine (Radiant is left): "perfect", "wonderful" and unique

- Fourth wine (fitting the discussion on Shallan's fourth secret identity): "invisible", "deadly", meant for Shallan ("I believe this is yours") but one she doesn't want to touch

Right - but to me that doesn't make sense.  For him to be making a symbolic reference, it would have to be tied to something in world.  That's not his style - he doesn't write in symbolism that we as readers are supposed to interpret as a message from him (Brandon Sanderson) to us, the readers.  If he is giving a hint or symbolic message, it's always contained within the story - from one in world character to another.  So it doesn't make sense that Ialai would be doing things intended to symbolize the qualities of Shallan's personas because she doesn't know they exist.

The only way this makes sense is if someone who is clued in such as Hoid, Mraize, or others with deep cosmere knowledge and personal knowledge of Shallan herself told Ialai to make these references in this order.  Then it would be a message from that character to Shallan. 

I don't think there are other examples of Sanderson using that kind of symbolism meant only for readers, but if you know of some I would be interested to hear.

[Karger]

10 minutes ago, agrabes said:

Like I said - I think she's becoming less and less subtle in telling Shallan "I'm pretty sure you're a Ghostblood agent sent to kill me.  So just get it over with."

But she also said "make sure you look through my rooms before anyone else does.  Something important is back there."

 

[agrabes]

11 minutes ago, Karger said:

But she also said "make sure you look through my rooms before anyone else does.  Something important is back there."

 

Right.  My interpretation was that Ialai realized (or at least suspected) based on their conversation that Shallan was not fully bought in on the Ghostblood thing.  So, she figured there was no harm in telling her a secret she wanted to keep from the Ghostbloods.  If Shallan is a true believer, then she or another Ghostblood would have found it anyway.  If Shallan is not, then she's managed to save whatever secret it is and possibly sowed discord between Shallan and the Ghostbloods.  I believe the wine conversation was both a test and just an expression of complete exhaustion and hopelessness in fighting the Ghostbloods.  Then, once she'd done that she decided to tell Shallan a secret with the look through my rooms comment.

It might be a cool mystery if the wine conversation was hints at other Ghostblood or Sons of Honor members.  I just don't think it is.

[Karger]

44 minutes ago, agrabes said:

So, she figured there was no harm in telling her a secret she wanted to keep from the Ghostbloods

Or at least her odds were better that way.

44 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I believe the wine conversation was both a test and just an expression of complete exhaustion and hopelessness in fighting the Ghostbloods.  Then, once she'd done that she decided to tell Shallan a secret with the look through my rooms comment.

Making a few coded references that a casual observer(like a bribed servant) won't understand might said Shallan in the right direction.  Even if she is not talking about what we think  she is she is probably referencing something.

[Ailvara]

On 18/08/2020 at 11:11 PM, agrabes said:

Right - but to me that doesn't make sense.  For him to be making a symbolic reference, it would have to be tied to something in world.  That's not his style - he doesn't write in symbolism that we as readers are supposed to interpret as a message from him (Brandon Sanderson) to us, the readers.  If he is giving a hint or symbolic message, it's always contained within the story - from one in world character to another.  So it doesn't make sense that Ialai would be doing things intended to symbolize the qualities of Shallan's personas because she doesn't know they exist.

The only way this makes sense is if someone who is clued in such as Hoid, Mraize, or others with deep cosmere knowledge and personal knowledge of Shallan herself told Ialai to make these references in this order.  Then it would be a message from that character to Shallan. 

I don't think there are other examples of Sanderson using that kind of symbolism meant only for readers, but if you know of some I would be interested to hear.

Call it symbolism, foreshadowing, easter eggs or anything else - it's the very essence of his style. Sometimes it is more tied in-world, sometimes it's just like this, a character saying something prophetic while they themselves have no idea. This would be the biggest one of this particular kind yet but the idea itself has always been there.

Some quick examples from Mistborn:

Spoiler

Sometimes, Kelsier felt that a skaa Misting's life wasn't so much about surviving as it was about picking the right time to die.

Yet, overthrowing the Final Empire? They'd sooner stop the mists from flowing or the sun from rising.

"Are there any religions on your list that include the slaughter of noblemen as a holy duty?"
Sazed frowned disapprovingly. "I do not believe so, Master Kelsier."
"Maybe I should found one."

As for bigger things, Wit's epilogue about nature of art is a direct wink-wink to the reader, much closer to breaking the 4th wall than this scene. Same with e.g. the interlude about the ardent reading romance stories which is a fan tease referring to Shalladin/Shadolin shipping wars.

All in all, you can definitely spot Brandon passing information "behind the back" of his characters.

Edited August 20, 2020 by Ailvara

[agrabes]

3 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Call it symbolism, foreshadowing, easter eggs or anything else - it's the very essence of his style. Sometimes it is more tied in-world, sometimes it's just like this, a character saying something prophetic while they themselves have no idea. This would be the biggest one of this particular kind yet but the idea itself has always been there.

Some quick examples from Mistborn:

  Reveal hidden contents

Sometimes, Kelsier felt that a skaa Misting's life wasn't so much about surviving as it was about picking the right time to die.

Yet, overthrowing the Final Empire? They'd sooner stop the mists from flowing or the sun from rising.

"Are there any religions on your list that include the slaughter of noblemen as a holy duty?"
Sazed frowned disapprovingly. "I do not believe so, Master Kelsier."
"Maybe I should found one."

As for bigger things, Wit's epilogue about nature of art is a direct wink-wink to the reader, much closer to breaking the 4th wall than this scene. Same with e.g. the interlude about the ardent reading romance stories which is a fan tease referring to Shalladin/Shadolin shipping wars.

All in all, you can definitely spot Brandon passing information "behind the back" of his characters.

I guess we'll have to disagree on this one.  Sanderson's style is to have a huge master planned multi-part epic with great foreshadowing and hints woven throughout all his books that you could look at and later see he'd planned for certain events all along.  Yes, he does put in occasional meta-commentary, or use overarching themes where his story is trying to get across a deeper message about life or a moral lesson.  But he doesn't use symbolism like this - he doesn't have Character A say something in Character B's presence that is not about Character B and assume that we as readers to infer that there actually is a symbolic reference being made about Character B.

Your spoilered example quote doesn't really land for me.  It's nothing at all like this wine example.  In your example, it's a character making a mostly joking off handed comment about what he should do, which he later then does.  That just logically follows - it's the kind of thing you would expect him to do if he could based on what we know about his personality.  It's a case of true foreshadowing.  Sanderson is putting it out there that the character thinks about that kind of stuff, making it a cool payoff when he later actually does it.  The wine scene isn't foreshadowing.  It isn't showing us more detail into how Veil/Shallan/Radiant see themselves (none of them consider the possibility that Ialai's comments have anything to do with them) or insight into how other characters see them (Ialai doesn't know or even suspect that Shallan has DID).  I think one or the other is required if we are going to consider this foreshadowing.  The scene where Mraize says he thinks Veil is the "true" personality -could- be foreshadowing, because it is laying out a possibility for us to consider as readers based on the opinions of characters.  Or, it could be a red herring.  We don't know what will happen yet.  The wine scene is not because it is not showing us the opinion of a character nor is it showing us an example of something happening to give us a hint of something similar possibly happening in the future.

The other examples you are talking about are much different.  Those are things like thematic references or possible 4th wall breaking, they are "meta" type commentary about art, fandom, and other topics.  They are not secret messages telling us what will happen in the plot or hints toward a character's secrets.

[Ailvara]

The way I understood it was that the problem with interpreting this scene as symbolic is for you that:

1) For characters to convey a hidden meaning it's necessary for them in-world to know about that meaning, and:

2) That Brandon doesn't make direct remarks that are primarily intended for the reader and not for something in-world.

This is what these examples prove. They don't need to be identical to do that.

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

But he doesn't use symbolism like this - he doesn't have Character A say something in Character B's presence that is not about Character B and assume that we as readers to infer that there actually is a symbolic reference being made about Character B.

This isn't this scenario. This is character A and character B talking together and not just talking. Veil drinks a very specific wine. Shallan drinks a very specific wine. And Shallan decides not to drink a very specific wine. Half of what happens in this scene would be completely coincidental if not for this hidden meaning and if something isn't in Brandon's style it's coincidence.

12 hours ago, agrabes said:

The wine scene isn't foreshadowing.  It isn't showing us more detail into how Veil/Shallan/Radiant see themselves (none of them consider the possibility that Ialai's comments have anything to do with them) or insight into how other characters see them (Ialai doesn't know or even suspect that Shallan has DID).  I think one or the other is required if we are going to consider this foreshadowing.  The scene where Mraize says he thinks Veil is the "true" personality -could- be foreshadowing, because it is laying out a possibility for us to consider as readers based on the opinions of characters.  Or, it could be a red herring.  We don't know what will happen yet.  The wine scene is not because it is not showing us the opinion of a character nor is it showing us an example of something happening to give us a hint of something similar possibly happening in the future.

Why in the world would showing an opinion of a character be required to create foreshadowing? It can be as simple as using a very specific word or phrase in a description instead of any other one that would convey the same thing literally. It can be delivered in the form of mirroring arcs when we already know what happened in Story 1, see that some similar things happening in Story 2 and so infer what will happen further in Story 2. It can be anything at all that on reread makes you think "oh, it was hinted at here"!

Also, why would foreshadowing be about what happens in the future? It only needs to be about what will be revealed in the future. In this case, that Veil is the most "clear/uninfluenced" part of Shallan, Radiant the "idealized" one and 'Shallan the "fake/superficial" one. For me it's been obvious for a while but many people still claim 'Shallan' is the real one and the rest she should get rid of. This is what the surface of OB ending has suggested. What this scene foreshadows is the moment when this will be proven wrong once and for all.

Edited August 21, 2020 by Ailvara

[Robot]

I've found that a lot of people who read stormlight are pretty adverse to this kind of foreshadowing. For example, I would bet a lot on Renarins name being significant and yet a lot of people always come out and deny it whenever it's pointed out. I think the reason for this is that viewing the future is of the enemy and thus forbidden, but we need to understand that not every voidbinder might be in opposition to team Dalinar.

 

I think it's also worth noting how Mraize thinks Veil is the real one and the sleepless think of her as having the heart of a thief.

[agrabes]

5 hours ago, Ailvara said:

The way I understood it was that the problem with interpreting this scene as symbolic is for you that:

1) For characters to convey a hidden meaning it's necessary for them in-world to know about that meaning, and:

2) That Brandon doesn't make direct remarks that are primarily intended for the reader and not for something in-world.

This is what these examples prove. They don't need to be identical to do that.

This isn't this scenario. This is character A and character B talking together and not just talking. Veil drinks a very specific wine. Shallan drinks a very specific wine. And Shallan decides not to drink a very specific wine. Half of what happens in this scene would be completely coincidental if not for this hidden meaning and if something isn't in Brandon's style it's coincidence.

Why in the world would showing an opinion of a character be required to create foreshadowing? It can be as simple as using a very specific word or phrase in a description instead of any other one that would convey the same thing literally. It can be delivered in the form of mirroring arcs when we already know what happened in Story 1, see that some similar things happening in Story 2 and so infer what will happen further in Story 2. It can be anything at all that on reread makes you think "oh, it was hinted at here"!

Also, why would foreshadowing be about what happens in the future? It only needs to be about what will be revealed in the future. In this case, that Veil is the most "clear/uninfluenced" part of Shallan, Radiant the "idealized" one and 'Shallan the "fake/superficial" one. For me it's been obvious for a while but many people still claim 'Shallan' is the real one and the rest she should get rid of. This is what the surface of OB ending has suggested. What this scene foreshadows is the moment when this will be proven wrong once and for all.

I think you are mostly correct about how I feel about this, with the exception that Sanderson does make remarks directly to readers, but only if they are not related to plot elements of the story.  He only makes meta-commentary directly to the readers, not commentary about plot.  I felt this was unrelated to the topic we were discussing so I didn't bring it up originally.  You haven't provided any example of foreshadowing being used by Brandon Sanderson in a way similar to this wine scene.  In this scene, the reader must draw the conclusion that Sanderson is referencing something about his characters that is totally unrelated to what has happened on the page.  I just don't think he does things like that.

 

I think you're diving too deep, looking for connections that don't exist.  But just for the sake of discussion, let's talk about what it might mean if it were really an allusion to the nature of Shallan's personalities or foreshadowing for her future.  I still don't think it lines up with what you are saying:

 

Clear Wine: A clear and sweet wine.  Made by carefully removing all rinds from the berries to "reveal what was truly inside."  Veil drank this wine.  But, the wine doesn't align with Veil's personality.  Veil is not sweet.  Veil is not "clear" - she is the thief in the night, she is the rogue.  She hides herself, the opposite of being "clear" - the opposite of being open and truthful.  The only way I could see this being associated with Veil is that Veil does not make any pretenses about who she is as a person, she doesn't "keep up appearances" the way Shallan does.  I think you are ignoring everything else and just using this to support your earlier conclusion that Veil is the hidden, true personality like Ialai claims that clear is the wine's true color.  For later, note that this wine is not defined to be noble or strong.  If this wine truly is associated with Veil, then I think the intent of the discussion is to say that Veil's characteristics are a true part of who Shallan is, but not the most important or substantive part because this wine is not noble or strong, not what Ialai says people should seek out.

Orange Wine: A bland orange wine in a finely labelled bottle, with a sour aftertaste.  A favorite of people who want to look better than what they are.  Looks good, but is actually bad.  Will eventually be discarded for something that is truly noble and strong.  Shallan drinks this wine.  I could say this partially fits.  Shallan is not bland, we've seen enough from her to know that she's far from a boring and bland person.  But we do know that she is someone who likes to keep up appearances and paper over her faults.  If this wine truly is a reference to the current Shallan personality, then I think it's saying that the part of her that wants to fit in and keep up appearances will be discarded.  She won't go along to get along anymore and she will be more of a true agent of change and advocate for her self and her own interests.

Blue Wine: Described as wonderful and perfect.  Very rare.  Ialai claims it's the last of its kind, while Shallan says that she is probably wrong about that - she's just given up the search for more.  Ialai does not offer it to Shallan.  This is most likely the "noble and strong" vintage that Ialai says people should try to go after.  The reason she doesn't offer it to Shallan is because of the subtle discussion they're having - Ialai is implying that as a Ghostblood operative, Shallan is not worthy of something noble and strong.  If we assume this is some kind of reference to Shallan's personalities, I think it's referencing that this noble and strong personality is what Shallan should strive for, but doesn't have currently.  Ialai saying this is the last of the vintage and it can never come back represents the bad parts of Shallan who say she should give up and not try to get better.  Shallan''s comment that Ialai should keep searching represents hope - that even if it seems impossible you should still strive for the goal of becoming who you want to be.  If it is foreshadowing a change in Shallan's personalities, then I think it represents the main Shallan personality becoming stronger and less reliant on her alter-egos.  Rather than "Shallan" disappearing and becoming "Veil", it represents "Shallan" growing as a person and getting stronger while still remaining herself.

Horneater White: Described as Invisible and Deadly.  Offered to Shallan, but she doesn't take it.  I believe this wine represents the moral dilemma that Shallan is having throughout the scene with Ialai and the lead up to it.  She is struggling with the idea of whether or not it's OK for her to be an assassin.  A part of her feels like Dalinar is too moralistic and stuffy which stops him from getting important things done.  But she also feels that Dalinar has a point about not killing people just because it's easier.  She knows that her Lightweaver powers would make it really easy for her to just kill people to get them out of the way, but she's still kind of thinks it's wrong.  Veil is totally in favor of going the assassin route, while Radiant is totally opposed.  The "Shallan" personality seems split - sometimes in favor, other times opposed based on circumstances.  I think the fact that Shallan rejected the wine (and the other events of the scene) represent that Shallan and all the personalities have decided that it's not right for them to be assassins.

Conclusion: Shallan should not strive to be like Veil.  Veil is not the true Shallan, but only one part of the true Shallan.  The main "Shallan" personality is challenged to grow and become better, more noble.  Shallan will ultimately decide that being an assassin is not right and will listen to Dalinar and obey the spirit of the law, if not the letter.

[Robot]

7 hours ago, agrabes said:

 

I'm sure there are more but here's an example of foreshadowing off the top of my head. When Szeth first enters Kholinar he feels a beating heart and comments more than once on the revelry going on.

[Ailvara]

16 hours ago, agrabes said:

...

Like you've said, we must agree to disagree. Unlike most real-world unresolved discussions, I hope we'll get answer one way or another eventually and so will be able to close it.

Wow, that's a thorough analysis! Even though I don't agree with everything, I appreciate it. It also let me see why you don't agree with mine - this looks more like poetical symbolism than foreshadowing. If that's what you see in the wine/alters then I understand - such things are so volatile and open to interpretation where no answer is right or wrong. I just see the symbolism of 4 wines-4 alters as more grounded because it's a 1 to 1 allegory with no threads to add or remove. I agree the "sweet" part is confusing - I'm thinking maybe it's irrelevant to this particular topic but needs to be there for that "second" hidden meaning but I'm not sure.

Edit: Let's look at the whole paragraph:

Quote

It’s sweet, fermented from a fruit, not a grain. It reminds me of visits to Gavilar’s wineries. I would guess it an Alethi vintage, rescued before the kingdom fell, made from simberries. The flesh of the fruit is clear, and they took great care to remove the rinds. Revealing what was truly inside.

So the "sweet" here is not necessarily for its own sake. It's the consequence of "fermented from a fruit, not a grain". Veil was created before Shallan fully splitting but after her possible split in her childhood. So the child, "original/pre-trauma Shallan" would be a grain here and the grown-up "WoR Shallan" a fruit and "rescued before the kingdom fell" can refer to the fact that Veil was created before she started spiraling down after speaking her 4th truth and so is more true to the source than Radiant. "I would guess it an Alethi vintage" - Veil was made to look like Alethi, unlike Shallan who has ginger (orange) hair.

Edited August 22, 2020 by Ailvara

[agrabes]

21 hours ago, Robot said:

I'm sure there are more but here's an example of foreshadowing off the top of my head. When Szeth first enters Kholinar he feels a beating heart and comments more than once on the revelry going on.

This is an example of foreshadowing or something like it, yes.  But it's of the type Sanderson usually uses.  A character makes an observation in world.  Later on we learn that this is a sign one of the Unmade was probably present.  It's something that was directly, explicitly written on screen.  Szeth hears a heartbeat at a party.  Later on, we hear that there is an Unmade called Heart of the Revel who causes parties and manifests as a beating heart.  To make it equivalent to this possible wine scene foreshadowing example would be something like Szeth meeting a random person a day before the feast who says to him "Sir, you are so beautiful you make my heart beat fast!  Come revel with me at the King's feast tomorrow!" without any other references to Ashertmarn at all and then taking that to mean it's a hint that an unmade was present. 

12 hours ago, Ailvara said:

Like you've said, we must agree to disagree. Unlike most real-world unresolved discussions, I hope we'll get answer one way or another eventually and so will be able to close it.

Wow, that's a thorough analysis! Even though I don't agree with everything, I appreciate it. It also let me see why you don't agree with mine - this looks more like poetical symbolism than foreshadowing. If that's what you see in the wine/alters then I understand - such things are so volatile and open to interpretation where no answer is right or wrong. I just see the symbolism of 4 wines-4 alters as more grounded because it's a 1 to 1 allegory with no threads to add or remove. I agree the "sweet" part is confusing - I'm thinking maybe it's irrelevant to this particular topic but needs to be there for that "second" hidden meaning but I'm not sure.

Edit: Let's look at the whole paragraph:

So the "sweet" here is not necessarily for its own sake. It's the consequence of "fermented from a fruit, not a grain". Veil was created before Shallan fully splitting but after her possible split in her childhood. So the child, "original/pre-trauma Shallan" would be a grain here and the grown-up "WoR Shallan" a fruit and "rescued before the kingdom fell" can refer to the fact that Veil was created before she started spiraling down after speaking her 4th truth and so is more true to the source than Radiant. "I would guess it an Alethi vintage" - Veil was made to look like Alethi, unlike Shallan who has ginger (orange) hair.

Yeah - I think you're just diving too deep here.  I don't think the 1:1 allegory works, since one wine was offered to Veil and 3 were offered to Shallan.  If it really were intended to be a complete 1:1 allegory, you would have to see at minimum Radiant being "in control" when one of the wines was out.  It just feels like you're trying to find meaning where none exists.  Especially your last paragraph.  It's all total speculation extrapolated from one short paragraph.  Everything you said might be true, but there is a much more obvious and more likely explanation than the one you provided for each line.  Brandon Sanderson is a great author and does a lot of amazing things with his books, but he doesn't pack in 5 layers of detail behind every line.  It just doesn't seem like Sanderson's style to use this kind of poetic symbolism.  I think it's just way more likely that Ialai is using the wines to talk indirectly about the Ghostbloods.  There are already two layers that are almost certainly there: the actual discussion of the wines themselves and the indirect references to the Ghostbloods.  It seems a bit much to add additional layers of meaning to the scene.  But who knows, maybe you'll be right in the end.  That's the thing about foreshadowing, it's only obvious after the fact!

[Ailvara]

Well, both the existence of the 4th alter that terrifies Shallan and the fact that 'Shallan' is the fakest of them all has just been spelled out:

Quote

And deep within Shallan, something else stirred. Formless. She had told herself that she would never create a new persona, and she wouldn’t. Formless wasn’t real.

But the possibility of it frightened Veil. And anything that frightened Veil terrified Shallan.

 

Quote

Because of the truths she hid, her entire life was a lie. Shallan, the one they all knew best, was the fakest mask of them all.

[Shardsplinter]

So this thread just turned to Veil, Radiant and ...Formless? What could the real "Shallan" possibly be like?? 

[Karger]

35 minutes ago, Shardsplinter said:

So this thread just turned to Veil, Radiant and ...Formless? What could the real "Shallan" possibly be like?? 

All of them!

[+Bliev]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

All of them!

YES! Exactly. What is "real" is unnecessary and what Shallan will have to address as she progresses--that they are all "her" and she is all "them". The fact that she hasn't addressed the deepest part of herself threatens to cause her to dissociate more, and Veil knows it. Shallan saying "the fakest mask of all" is a testament to her insecurity not a confession that she isn't "real". They're all "real".