RoW Prologue and Chapter 1 Discussion

[Harbour]

1 hour ago, Jaconis said:

 

If those two assumptions are correct, than a reasonable conclusion is that Aesudan was talking to the artifabrian about this Gavilar stuff, and she was intentionally distracting/keeping Navani away from him.  

damnation, i thought about the same.

Speculation purely: if its the case, i wouldnt be surprised if there was an invisible void spren that served as a phone between Aesudan and Gavilar so Aesudan could have easily warn Gavilar if someone will try to interrupt his conversation.

Quote

Aesudan tugged Navani—forcefully—back through the gardens toward the kitchens.

Quote

But Aesudan was already hurrying off toward another group in the gardens, one attended by several powerful highlord generals.

The sudden way Aesudan took Navani by her arm to move away and then the sudden way she herself go away reminds me of the situation when one person want to distract another one for a minute to buy the time for her "team" to do their business.

[Innovation]

Doesn’t Brandon limit himself to 1 revival per series? We already have Szeth. Reviving another character would violate that rule.

Form a in-world perspective, how could reviving him be achieved? Odium could turn him into a Fused-like being, he could be a cognitive shadow, or something unknown. All of these possible methods point towards Odium as the culprit, as Cultivation seems to play in the background. Why would Odium revive a possible Bondsmith? This Gavilar we are seeing, he probably wouldn’t want to serve anyone, not even a Shard. Odium has also been preparing Dalinar for a long time. Killing Dalinar’s brother would be another pain Dalinar could give up. Finally, it seems like Ulim was the one who ordered the Listeners to buy Szeth. Ulim serves Odium, and why kill him and revive him? Why not just fake his death? 

Edited July 24, 2020 by Innovation

[+Child of Hodor]

4 minutes ago, Innovation said:

Doesn’t Brandon limit himself to 1 revival per series? We already have Szeth. Reviving another character would violate that rule.

Form a in-world perspective, how could reviving him be achieved? Odium could turn him into a Fused-like being, he could be a cognitive shadow, or something unknown. All of these possible methods point towards Odium as the culprit, as Cultivation seems to play in the background. Why would Odium revive a possible Bondsmith? This Gavilar we are seeing, he probably wouldn’t want to serve anyone, not even a Shard. Odium has also been preparing Dalinar for a long time. Killing Dalinar’s brother would be another pain Dalinar could give up. Finally, it seems like Ulim was the one who ordered the Listeners to buy Szeth. Ulim serves Odium, and why kill him and revive him? Why not fake just fake his death? 

I agree, especially considering Brandon revised WoR after publication to make Szeth's death less explicit because he felt there were too many death fakeouts with Jasnah and Szeth. 

 

[Karger]

24 minutes ago, shadows said:

Like an interplanetary oathgate?

Something like that.  You send a box to braize it grabs some spren(maybe it is made of aluminum?) and they come back.

[agrabes]

Is it a bad thing that reading this whole prologue made me feel -less- bad about Gavilar than the original excerpt we got?  When we read the excerpt, it was like Gavilar was being a jerk because he was probably a bad person and/or a sexist.  Now, we know context.

I feel like a lot of you are missing some key aspects here.  First, we know that Gavilar is treating Navani the way he does because he's hurt and he doesn't trust her.  Navani clearly says that Gavilar started acting like this after rumors started that she'd been unfaithful to him.  He makes it clear that is what is motivating him.  I don't think you can blame someone for being upset about that.  I mean, it seems like they have probably had conversations about this and I wouldn't be surprised if Gavilar does believe that Navani has not cheated on him.  But like he says, she keeps doing the things that make other people think she is unfaithful.  How would you like it if you had to keep constantly defending your spouse against those kinds of accusations?  Especially if his or her behavior is legitimately suspicious?  That you might have believed she was faithful that first time, but if it keeps happening again and again you can't keep the doubts out of your mind.  

The Gavilar/Navani relationship reads to me like an argument between a married couple who know their marriage is on the rocks.  Navani knows she has done some wrong too, she admits it to herself.  I think it's reasonable to say that people can be nasty to each other when they love each other and have been hurt by one another.  It doesn't make you a bad person to react badly when you're hurt.

To me, this gives us a lot of context as to who Gavilar is as a person.  He's someone who's playing the deeper game, he's focused on his goals and how he needs to meet them.  He trusts Navani to cover for him on the regular kingly duties front, which is why he pushes all those responsibilities on her.  He is trying to marry off his daughter for political gain to achieve his greater goals.  He knows his son is incompetent and probably has plans in place to deal with that.  He's not a particularly nice person, but he's not evil.  I mean, he conquered Alethkar by military force... We already knew what kind of guy he was.  He's someone who would have been considered a great man 500 years ago, but doesn't live up to today's moral standards.  His biggest failure, imo, is that he doesn't let Navani and Jasnah in on things.  He clearly trusts both and feels they are highly competent.  If he were to let Navani in on what he's doing, I think she would happily run interference for him with the Alethi nobles.  Jasnah might even be willing to have a loveless, political marriage with Amaram if she thinks it would serve the greater good.  I wonder if the SA5 prologue (if it's from his perspective) will show his true thoughts during these arguments.  I suspect we'll get his reasoning for why he won't let Navani in on this.

Of course, now that I've said this we will learn Gavilar is even worse than we thought and I'll look like an idiot.

[Harbour]

Prologue is actually very meaty. Not gonna dive into shipping, i dont like it, but the way Brandon presented Navani thoughts and view on Gavilar and Dalinar and how Gavilar doesnt trust her made me really think of Adolin/Shallan dynamic. Im really wonder will they follow the steps of Navani/Gavilar with all that truth/lies stuff. Brandon certainly build the foundation to explore that with this prologue.

[+Oltux72]

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The box is what allows for travel according to Gavilar. It sounded like Gavilar used the Heralds Connection to Braize in combination with the box to send other things.

Yes he did. But that leaves two problems.

1. Why bother? Why not just go to Cultivation's perpendicularity?
2. What does that do for a Herald? They would be drawn back to the Rosharan system.

2 hours ago, Child of Hodor said:

The Heralds want it to get them out of the system, away from Odium. 

That makes sense. Thence they need something that would manipulate Connection.

 

[Pathfinder]

Tinfoil theory, what if Gavilar is trying to become a herald, but by taking it over from an existing herald? The megalomania evident would make complete sense to me that he would think he could handle the torture or take over where the existing heralds failed. He would then be eternal, and could rule the world through the church. Kalak would like this, because it would mean he could give up the burden to someone else. No more guilt or responsibility. Its someone else's problem. 

[+Q10fanatic]

9 hours ago, GriffinMaze said:

Lirin is a coward

Lirin is an extremist and a pacifist. I already didn't really like him and this POV isn't helping. Lirin says it doesn't matter who rules, humans or Singers. This is darn close to Moash's own beliefs about the conflict.

[scm288]

As a note on character: Gavilar's attacks on Navani's interests feel much more poignant when you consider her self-doubts earlier in the series:

Quote

"It's all very technical and theoretical right now," Navani said, Smiling. "But just wait. When you see the things the ardents are imagining--"

"Not you?" Adolin asked.

"I'm their patron, dear," Navani said, patting him on the arm. "I don't have time to make all of the diagrams and figures, even were I up to the task." She looked down at the gathered ardents and women scientists who were inspecting the floor of the parapet platform. "They suffer me."

"Surely it's more than that."

Perhaps in another life it could have been. She was sure some of them saw her as a colleague. Many, however, just saw her as the woman who sponsored them so she'd have new fabrials to show off at parties. Perhaps she was just that. A lighteyed lady of rank had to have some hobbies, didn't she? 

(Words of Radiance, Chapter 35, "The Multiplied Strain of Simultaneous Infusion")

Ouch, Navani. No! Don't let Gavilar's accusations get you down! I love how Brandon shows such care for the development of even his side characters.

[+Child of Hodor]

22 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

Yes he did. But that leaves two problems.

1. Why bother? Why not just go to Cultivation's perpendicularity?
2. What does that do for a Herald? They would be drawn back to the Rosharan system.

That makes sense. Thence they need something that would manipulate Connection.

 

1) Because they don't want to walk the whole way through Shadesmar which is what would happen if they took a perpendicularity. 

2) It clearly doesn't interest Nale at all. Kalak is desperate and will cling to any hope of getting away. If they were to somehow escape the Roshar system they wouldn't be drawn back unless they died and they've made it 4,500 years without dying. Getting out of the system is the problem for cognitive shadows, but once they figure a way and get out they can move around like Vasher  / Zahel does.  

 

[Eluvianii]

12 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Lirin is an extremist and a pacifist. I already didn't really like him and this POV isn't helping. Lirin says it doesn't matter who rules, humans or Singers. This is darn close to Moash's own beliefs about the conflict.

I think he just doesn't like people dying, just as Kaladin. But where Kal found a way to save people he's comfortable with and involves fighting, Lirin is convinced fighting will always result in more death. It's not so much that he doesn't care who rules as he's willing to bear with it as long as people are safe.

Whether Kal manages to convince him that there is a way to actually save people through fighting or not remains to be seen.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Eluvianii

[theTruthshaper]

6 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

2) It clearly doesn't interest Nale at all. Kalak is desperate and will cling to any hope of getting away. If they were to somehow escape the Roshar system they wouldn't be drawn back unless they died and they've made it 4,500 years without dying. Getting out of the system is the problem for cognitive shadows, but once they figure a way and get out they can move around like Vasher  / Zahel does.  

Wait, is it difficult for the Returned to go off system?

I thought that it was more difficult for Kelsier because he had no Connection to the Physical Realm

Edited July 24, 2020 by The_Truthwatcher

[+Oltux72]

8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

1) Because they don't want to walk the whole way through Shadesmar which is what would happen if they took a perpendicularity. 

So they have been waiting for over 4000 years in the uncertain hope that somebody would come along and develop comfortable transportation?
Even if the wish to leave is more recent, it must be quite a coincidence that it arose only at that time and that they are taking the risk that Gavilar's project will fail.

8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

2) It clearly doesn't interest Nale at all.

Yet he is there.

8 minutes ago, Child of Hodor said:

Kalak is desperate and will cling to any hope of getting away.

So why does he not walk away?

 

[fammann]

9 hours ago, GriffinMaze said:

 

Lirin is a coward

Lirin is a great man. 

[agrabes]

20 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Lirin is an extremist and a pacifist. I already didn't really like him and this POV isn't helping. Lirin says it doesn't matter who rules, humans or Singers. This is darn close to Moash's own beliefs about the conflict.

I mean - think about things objectively.  Does it matter who rules?  It might, if one side or the other mistreats their people.  But it might not.  I don't get the sense from chapters released so far that the humans of Hearthstone are suffering under the singers' rule.  It seems like life would have been better for the Herdazians if they had simply surrendered and lived under the rule of the singers.  A whole lot less people would have been killed.  The only cost is the loss of a few cultural traditions.  It's one thing if they had a reasonable chance of winning the war, but they didn't.  And that's what Lirin points out.

For some people, fighting and death and destruction is good for its own sake.  But I don't think that's an objective truth, or even a commonly held opinion in today's world.  There's a difference between being a pacificist and wanting to fight only when it's meaningful.  Personally, I would have said the Herdazians should have either submitted or fled to Urithiru where they could join the Radiants and fight in meaningful battles.

[scm288]

Not to dogpile, but I think that to certain worldviews, Lirin is a coward, in much the same way that Szeth is a murderer, Dalinar is a tyrant, Kaladin is dangerous (shash brand), etc.

Worldviews impact the way that people are seen. Lirin operates from a very strong moral code--one against death and violence. His entire bent is to save lives, not take them or lose them in death and battle. He doesn't care who his overlords are; he only cares about doing his job.

To people who believe that war is the solution, Lirin is a coward. Lirin would not protest the Nazi regime; he would be an Oskar Schindler, trying to save lives without directly defying the system that is taking them. Lirin would not advocate for a war to save his people, because the singers are also his people--people are his people. As a surgeon, he just wants the killing to cease. To some, that is cowardice; to others, it is the highest moral courage. I don't think Brandon is going to force a particular interpretation on people.

[+Q10fanatic]

25 minutes ago, agrabes said:

There's a difference between being a pacificist and wanting to fight only when it's meaningful.  Personally, I would have said the Herdazians should have either submitted or fled to Urithiru where they could join the Radiants and fight in meaningful battles.

Who decides what is meaningful? Lirin? I suspect that the Herdazian fighters have a different view. I suspect some of the refugees agreed with the fighting, with the idea of defending their homeland and cultural traditions. 

 

27 minutes ago, agrabes said:

I don't get the sense from chapters released so far that the humans of Hearthstone are suffering under the singers' rule.  It seems like life would have been better for the Herdazians if they had simply surrendered and lived under the rule of the singers.

I strongly disagree with this. The humans are now being treated roughly like the Parshmen used to be treated. Perhaps marginally better, but still somewhere between a permanent underclass and slaves. The threat of instant death from Fused or high-ranking listeners is everywhere for the conquered humans. They know their work, their supplies, and their crops go to the benefit of the Fused, who are waging a war of extinction against the humans. Odium plans to wipe out all life on Roshar, as he showed to Dalinar. Lirin's philosophy only makes sense because he does not understand the true stakes of the conflict.

 

[dgreene196]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Tinfoil theory, what if Gavilar is trying to become a herald, but by taking it over from an existing herald? The megalomania evident would make complete sense to me that he would think he could handle the torture or take over where the existing heralds failed. He would then be eternal, and could rule the world through the church. Kalak would like this, because it would mean he could give up the burden to someone else. No more guilt or responsibility. Its someone else's problem. 

I could see Gavilar being interested in the powers and immortality of the Heralds.  From what we know of him, I don't think he'd be willing to subject himself to indefinite/eternal imprisonment and torture for the people of Roshar.  At best, he'd try to subvert the Oathpact to his own advantage.

But I'm not sure we really know enough yet to be certain.  Transferring powers from a current/former herald to a new individual does seem like a way to obtain those abilities.

[+Oltux72]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Tinfoil theory, what if Gavilar is trying to become a herald, but by taking it over from an existing herald?

What is the point of being a Herald after Honor's demise? If you wish to become immortal on Roshar, you either need to take up a Shard or become a Cognitive Shadow. It looks to me like Gavilar intended the latter. But why would he subject himself to the Oathpact if he could tap into it by other means?

 

[Karger]

Time to respond to EVERYBODY!

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

First, we know that Gavilar is treating Navani the way he does because he's hurt and he doesn't trust her.  Navani clearly says that Gavilar started acting like this after rumors started that she'd been unfaithful to him

That may be partly true but I do think he underestimates her.  He sounds to me like on of those great military or business minds that does not really appreciate the value of bureaucracy or if he does assumes that it is a clever arrangement of "little people" who get work done by advantage of their numbers.  Useful and maybe vital but really just the grunt work of government.  I also do think he is a bit of a misogynist given how he regards Jasnah and we already knew he was a megalomaniac with sociopathic tendencies.

3 hours ago, agrabes said:

To me, this gives us a lot of context as to who Gavilar is as a person.  He's someone who's playing the deeper game, he's focused on his goals and how he needs to meet them.  He trusts Navani to cover for him on the regular kingly duties front, which is why he pushes all those responsibilities on her.  He is trying to marry off his daughter for political gain to achieve his greater goals.  He knows his son is incompetent and probably has plans in place to deal with that.  He's not a particularly nice person, but he's not evil.

Agreed.

2 hours ago, Harbour said:

Gavilar doesnt trust her made me really think of Adolin/Shallan dynamic

Don't they trust each other(Adolin and Shallan?)

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Tinfoil theory, what if Gavilar is trying to become a herald, but by taking it over from an existing herald? The megalomania evident would make complete sense to me that he would think he could handle the torture or take over where the existing heralds failed. He would then be eternal, and could rule the world through the church. Kalak would like this, because it would mean he could give up the burden to someone else. No more guilt or responsibility. Its someone else's problem. 

I think there are a lot of problems with that but if it was remotely possible I am sure it was in the back of Gavilar's mind.

10 hours ago, GriffinMaze said:

Lirin is a coward

He certainly is not a physical or moral one so I am not sure what you mean.  He is willing to risk his own life to save some one else's and he stands by his beliefs even when confronted by power.

1 hour ago, scm288 said:

As a note on character: Gavilar's attacks on Navani's interests feel much more poignant when you consider her self-doubts earlier in the series:

I noticed that too.  They both definitely new how to hit where it hurt.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Why bother? Why not just go to Cultivation's perpendicularity?

Slower and potentially more dangerous.  That is leaving out the possibility of Braize having defenses.  Think how grateful you would be for a quick recall switch in a hostile environment.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

What does that do for a Herald? They would be drawn back to the Rosharan system.

We don't know the Heralds are using the box.  I personally think they have some kind of Amaram if it is maned at all.  Kelek is straining at the edge trying to find a way out.  The box might not work but it is a start.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

Yet he is there.

Keeping an eye on someone who he may have been planing to kill for some reason.

1 hour ago, Oltux72 said:

So why does he not walk away?

He can't.  Heralds can't leave Roshar.  He is hopping this will work and likely has no other options.

21 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Odium plans to wipe out all life on Roshar, as he showed to Dalinar. Lirin's philosophy only makes sense because he does not understand the true stakes of the conflict.

Which he doesn't.

3 minutes ago, Oltux72 said:

But why would he subject himself to the Oathpact if he could tap into it by other means?

Maybe he could not.  OHH Tinfoil hat on top of Tinfoil hat.  He STOLE J's place in the pact!  We know he was at Kholinar.  He will be the wringer once all the other Herald's are dead.  This also explains why Moath(f Moash) surrenders.  He is trying to find out where Gavilar got too.

[+Czernobog]

A Herald saying "I want out" coupled with Gavilar's statements...was Gavilar trying to, or did he possibly succeed in, taking the place of one of the Heralds, and joining with the Oathpact?

 

(I should have finished reading the entire thread before posting this. Too eager. )

Edited July 24, 2020 by Czernobog

[+Q10fanatic]

9 minutes ago, Karger said:

Which he doesn't.

Sure, but I don't know how much longer his ignorance can be excused. As I said, there was the constant threat of death for all humans in Alethkar. He has to have acknowledged that this is a new Desolation, which everyone in Vorin culture knows were wars to the death. I'll be curious to see how he handles this as much as Kaladin does.

[Karger]

16 minutes ago, Czernobog said:

A Herald saying "I want out" coupled with Gavilar's statements...was Gavilar trying to, or did he possibly succeed in, taking the place of one of the Heralds, and joining with the Oathpact?

That was Kelek.  He was famous for his resoluteness so now he is a coward.  I think he is trying to run however he can.

[Singer]

12 hours ago, GriffinMaze said:

 

Lirin is a coward

I don't know that I agree with that assessment. He reminds me of my mom. Her older brother suffered serious injuries in the Vietnam war and she worked at the VA hospital for 30 years treating war veterans. When you see that side of warfare, the  human cost of it, for that long it really makes you think differently about what is actually worth sending your young men and women off to die for. So what you perceive as cowardice I perceive as a totally accurate portrayal of a pacifist medical professional. 

You can, of course, continue to read Lirin's perspective as cowardly. There isn't a wrong way to read a book, but I thought a different perspective on him might add to the discussion in a positive way.