Natural disasters and Surges?

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

I've been thinking about volcanoes a lot, and I got to wondering, what use would Surges have in helping people in or after a natural disaster, like a volcanic eruption or a hurricane?  

I figure Gravitation would be helpful in evacuating people, and Regrowth would be really good for medics to have around, but what about the others?  Anyone interested in discussing this?

[theTruthshaper]

Abrasion can be used with Gravitation to facilitate faster movement.

Transformation can create supplies.

[Honorless he/him]

All of them could be useful, one way or another

Transportation, Gravitation & Abrasion for search & rescue

Cohesion for temporary shelters, wavebreakers, temporary structural support in case of extensive damage

Soulcasting for food & resources; Progression for healing

Lightweaving for keeping morale up as well as communication.

Tension could also serve as structural support & for traversing potentially unstable areas like the movement based Surges & its fellow Willshaper Surge

Adhesion can also similarly help with structural integrity & as the Surge of pressure and vacuum be immensely helpful in case of storms. Spiritual Abrasion could also be helpful for communication.

[Karger he/him]

Volcanoes are not a thing on roshar.  It is not geologically active.

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

Volcanoes are not a thing on roshar.  It is not geologically active.

Yes, but this is theoretically.

Edited July 23, 2020 by Spren of Kindness

[Karger he/him]

31 minutes ago, Spren of Kindness said:

Yes, but this is theoretically.

Regrowth is probably your best bet regardless of disaster conditions.  Getting people food and keeping them from dying.

[Weltall]

As @Honorless covered really well, all of the Surges have potential uses. There was a topic a while back on mundane uses for Surgebinding that probably have more ideas, though not focused as narrowly as this topic.

Adhesion also seems like it could be really useful in setting up temporary windbreaks like Kaladin does in Oathbringer, and we have WoBs that Windrunners would be great for space exploration due to their combined powers, so a modified form of that using Adhesion to create bubbles in areas full of toxic or corrosive gases would be helpful for search and rescue work.

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

I wonder if Soulcasting could be used to stop lava?

And yeah, windbreaks would be extremely important, especially if there are pyroclastic surges.  Though if you get in the way of that...I'm not sure even a Radiant could do anything. 

[Weltall]

19 minutes ago, Spren of Kindness said:

I wonder if Soulcasting could be used to stop lava?

It would probably be hard, but if Aimia is any indication it should be possible. After all, someone managed to soulcast air into stone spikes so lava should be doable as well. Might even be easier Cognitively since a flow of lava could be mentally thought of as one thing needing to be changeed, as opposed to air where (depending on how it's perceived) you either have countless nitrogen/oxygen/etc atoms, or one undifferentiated thing that you're trying to affect only a very tiny piece of.

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

Just now, Weltall said:

It would probably be hard, but if Aimia is any indication it should be possible. After all, someone managed to soulcast air into stone spikes so lava should be doable as well. Might even be easier Cognitively since a flow of lava could be mentally thought of as one thing needing to be changeed, as opposed to air where (depending on how it's perceived) you either have countless nitrogen/oxygen/etc atoms, or one undifferentiated thing that you're trying to affect only a very tiny piece of.

Good point.  I think it would be easier, though possibly more dangerous physically to deal with lava.

Still not sure what good Radiants can do when faced with pyroclastic flows and surges, so if anyone figures that out, please tell me.  I'm very interested.

[Weltall]

10 minutes ago, Spren of Kindness said:

Still not sure what good Radiants can do when faced with pyroclastic flows and surges, so if anyone figures that out, please tell me.  I'm very interested.

Adhesion could probably be used to deflect the ash and gasses themselves but the heat would be another matter, an issue that would also come up in the case of lava. Given Brandon's adage about limitations being more interesting than powers, I'm pretty sure this is just the sort of thing he'd consider as a problem for the characters to overcome rather than something the magic can deal with entirely on its own. Stormlight healing (possibly assisted by Progression) could help since you don't need to breathe while holding it and could reduce the damage to your body caused by the temperature but that would be a short-term fix. I'm thinking some fabrials that affect temperature would be the best bet.

Edited July 24, 2020 by Weltall

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

10 minutes ago, Weltall said:

Adhesion could probably be used to deflect the ash and gasses themselves but the heat would be another matter, an issue that would also come up in the case of lava. Given Brandon's adage about limitations being more interesting than powers, I'm pretty sure this is just the sort of thing he'd consider as a problem for the characters to overcome rather than something the magic can deal with entirely on its own. Stormlight healing (possibly assisted by Progression) could help since you don't need to breathe while holding it and could reduce the damage to your body caused by the temperature but that would be a short-term fix. I'm thinking some fabrials that affect temperature would be the best bet.

True.  I figure that in the end, the only thing you could really do would be the ancient method of 'get to high ground, and if you can't do that, pray'.  Fabrials might be some help, but depending on the metals used and the temperature of the surge or flow, it might melt.  You'd be pretty much out of options then.  Lashings could do it, maybe.

I agree, this is probably one of the things where magic can't solve the problem.

[Pathfinder]

4 hours ago, Spren of Kindness said:

True.  I figure that in the end, the only thing you could really do would be the ancient method of 'get to high ground, and if you can't do that, pray'.  Fabrials might be some help, but depending on the metals used and the temperature of the surge or flow, it might melt.  You'd be pretty much out of options then.  Lashings could do it, maybe.

I agree, this is probably one of the things where magic can't solve the problem.

Actually I feel the radiant surges would make a volcano, or storm a non-issue. Storms are constant on Roshar so I won't even bother mentioning all the things they could do because we already see it in the book (storm shelters, wind breaks, healing, food supplies). So that brings volcanoes. Like water, lava flows the path of least resistance. Using hydrology analysis, the path can be predicted. Then you have a bunch of elsecallers soulcasting the lava at a distance to harmless air (we already know it is possible to soulcast moving water due to the frozen waterfalls mentioned in Kholinar) to give the stonewards and willshapers time to create channels to direct the lava flow away from populated areas. No property damage. Progression (truthwatchers and edgedancers) can heal anyone with issues from toxic inhalation from the gases or ash in the air. Finally elscallers and lighweavers can soulcast the fumes and ash to breathable air. Entire catastrophe managed without a single life or building lost and quality life is maintained. That isn't even counting the bondsmiths super charging the radiants to make their surges more effective, the windrunners and skybreakers acting as mobile support, the elsecallers and willshapers teleporting vulnerable townspeople away, and bringing in radiant support. The only order I can't think of a task for is dustbringers, and they may very well create the channels faster than the stonewards and willshapers with division. Perhaps the dustbringers would make the channels, while the stonewards and willshapers shaped them. 

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

49 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Actually I feel the radiant surges would make a volcano, or storm a non-issue. Storms are constant on Roshar so I won't even bother mentioning all the things they could do because we already see it in the book (storm shelters, wind breaks, healing, food supplies). So that brings volcanoes. Like water, lava flows the path of least resistance. Using hydrology analysis, the path can be predicted. Then you have a bunch of elsecallers soulcasting the lava at a distance to harmless air (we already know it is possible to soulcast moving water due to the frozen waterfalls mentioned in Kholinar) to give the stonewards and willshapers time to create channels to direct the lava flow away from populated areas. No property damage. Progression (truthwatchers and edgedancers) can heal anyone with issues from toxic inhalation from the gases or ash in the air. Finally elscallers and lighweavers can soulcast the fumes and ash to breathable air. Entire catastrophe managed without a single life or building lost and quality life is maintained. That isn't even counting the bondsmiths super charging the radiants to make their surges more effective, the windrunners and skybreakers acting as mobile support, the elsecallers and willshapers teleporting vulnerable townspeople away, and bringing in radiant support. The only order I can't think of a task for is dustbringers, and they may very well create the channels faster than the stonewards and willshapers with division. Perhaps the dustbringers would make the channels, while the stonewards and willshapers shaped them. 

You're right about all of this - but pyroclastic flows and surges move very quickly.  That's not lava, it's very, very hot ash (and stuff) and gas.  That's why I said high ground.  If it's just a pyroclastic flow, it will travel downhill, so getting to high ground is your best bet, if you have time.  The flows can travel up to 80 km or fifty miles per hour.  A pyroclastic surge travels in the air, meaning Soulcasters had better be really good at long distance transformation (still not sure about the temperature plan there), or you have many, many Windrunners and Skybreakers ready to Lash people above and away.

If I misread your post and you addressed this stuff, I'm really sorry.  I just get very enthusiastic about volcanic stuff.

[Pathfinder]

34 minutes ago, Spren of Kindness said:

You're right about all of this - but pyroclastic flows and surges move very quickly.  That's not lava, it's very, very hot ash (and stuff) and gas.  That's why I said high ground.  If it's just a pyroclastic flow, it will travel downhill, so getting to high ground is your best bet, if you have time.  The flows can travel up to 80 km or fifty miles per hour.  A pyroclastic surge travels in the air, meaning Soulcasters had better be really good at long distance transformation (still not sure about the temperature plan there), or you have many, many Windrunners and Skybreakers ready to Lash people above and away.

If I misread your post and you addressed this stuff, I'm really sorry.  I just get very enthusiastic about volcanic stuff.

No problem, but after reading up on pyroclastic flows, I believe the rationale I presented still stands. The flows like water follow the path of least resistance. 

"Just like a flash flood, it will naturally flow into dips and valleys."

Stonewards, WIllshapers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Dustbringers and Skybreakers all have landscape altering abilities. 

Explosives, barriers, trenches, and water have shown to successfully battle, mitigate, or slow. The main limitations on these is usually the availability, the quantity, and the time. All of which is handled by radiants. Stonewards, Willshapers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Dustbringers and Skybreakers can throw up massive barriers and trenches to divert and slow its progression. At its core, a pyroclast is just a super heated toxic gas laden landslide. Rob it of its momentum, and you rob it of its speed and devastation. Plateaus would be another way. of robbing it of its momentum. Instead of giving it a shear angle to plunge down, create tiers that it will slam into, roll over, and then slam again, and again. Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly elsecallers and lightweavers overhead to soulcast massive amounts of water to drop on it. 

So to sum up this information in how it would play out in my mind is this (list form for organization)

 

1. Teleport in teams of radiants to create plateaus that end in a trench right in front of a barrier that then leads to a gentle slope, that again leads to another plateau that leads to another trench that is in front of another barrier. Each tier robbing the pyroclast of momentum, rocks/boulders, and heavier than air gasses sitting in the depressions.

2. In addition to these plateaus, the sides will have sloped barriers to gradually curve it away from population centers. 

3. While the pyroclast progresses, the windrunners/skybreakers fly elsecallers and lightweavers high overhead dropping gallons of water to cool the temperature and soulcast the gasses to air

 

Eruptions can be predicted. Pyroclastic flows can be anticipated. All it would take is the knowledge that a volcano is due for an eruption to put all of these in place to begin with, or position the radiants to be ready to enact it. Yes pyroclasts move very quickly, but they still have to travel the distance to reach these populations centers. 

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

No problem, but after reading up on pyroclastic flows, I believe the rationale I presented still stands. The flows like water follow the path of least resistance. 

"Just like a flash flood, it will naturally flow into dips and valleys."

Stonewards, WIllshapers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Dustbringers and Skybreakers all have landscape altering abilities. 

Explosives, barriers, trenches, and water have shown to successfully battle, mitigate, or slow. The main limitations on these is usually the availability, the quantity, and the time. All of which is handled by radiants. Stonewards, Willshapers, Elsecallers, Lightweavers, Dustbringers and Skybreakers can throw up massive barriers and trenches to divert and slow its progression. At its core, a pyroclast is just a super heated toxic gas laden landslide. Rob it of its momentum, and you rob it of its speed and devastation. Plateaus would be another way. of robbing it of its momentum. Instead of giving it a shear angle to plunge down, create tiers that it will slam into, roll over, and then slam again, and again. Windrunners and Skybreakers can fly elsecallers and lightweavers overhead to soulcast massive amounts of water to drop on it. 

So to sum up this information in how it would play out in my mind is this (list form for organization)

 

1. Teleport in teams of radiants to create plateaus that end in a trench right in front of a barrier that then leads to a gentle slope, that again leads to another plateau that leads to another trench that is in front of another barrier. Each tier robbing the pyroclast of momentum, rocks/boulders, and heavier than air gasses sitting in the depressions.

2. In addition to these plateaus, the sides will have sloped barriers to gradually curve it away from population centers. 

3. While the pyroclast progresses, the windrunners/skybreakers fly elsecallers and lightweavers high overhead dropping gallons of water to cool the temperature and soulcast the gasses to air

 

Eruptions can be predicted. Pyroclastic flows can be anticipated. All it would take is the knowledge that a volcano is due for an eruption to put all of these in place to begin with, or position the radiants to be ready to enact it. Yes pyroclasts move very quickly, but they still have to travel the distance to reach these populations centers. 

 

You make some really good points about that.  As implausible as it sounds in my head, knowing what the various Surges do makes it seem like it would work.  As long as they don't rely on pre prepared measures (Mount St. Helens blew a pretty massive chunk of the north side off, and that probably would have altered the directions stuff went), I wouldn't say there would be no damage or possible loss of life, as there's always something you can't plan for, and usually some people who stick around for fun, or just don't think it's that dangerous.  But definitely, the Radiants would probably be able to reduce that level of damage.

[Pathfinder]

14 minutes ago, Spren of Kindness said:

 

You make some really good points about that.  As implausible as it sounds in my head, knowing what the various Surges do makes it seem like it would work.  As long as they don't rely on pre prepared measures (Mount St. Helens blew a pretty massive chunk of the north side off, and that probably would have altered the directions stuff went), I wouldn't say there would be no damage or possible loss of life, as there's always something you can't plan for, and usually some people who stick around for fun, or just don't think it's that dangerous.  But definitely, the Radiants would probably be able to reduce that level of damage.

Funny you should say that because just as you posted that I had another idea that would negate the entire problem to begin with. As I said eruptions can be predicted. The issue in our world is the scope of the measures that have to be taken (takes time to set up even moderate barriers, and there is a limit on how much water can be attained and how quickly it can be brought to the location). But all of this can be prevented. Imagine you know an eruption is coming like Mount St. Helen as you mentioned. Earthquakes telegraphed the revival of that volcano for a solid two weeks before anything began to escalate. 

So imagine you now know a volcano is going to potentially erupt and you have the full access to all the surges from the radiants. Have stonewards use tension to strengthen the sides of the volcano facing population centers with periodic vents dotting its length. Use soulcasting, cohesion, and division to create cracks, fissures, and tubes all along and at specific points of the side of the mountain pointed away from population centers creating a release valve and path of least resistance to direct the explosion and debris away. I would also imagine (though I am not a vulcanologist) that if we in the modern world had ways to divert lava flows, and create targeted release valves into the rock to prevent the growing pressure like the radiants could using their surges, we could eliminate the danger of volcanoes altogether. 

Edited July 25, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Spren of Kindness she/her]

24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Funny you should say that because just as you posted that I had another idea that would negate the entire problem to begin with. As I said eruptions can be predicted. The issue in our world is the scope of the measures that have to be taken (takes time to set up even moderate barriers, and there is a limit on how much water can be attained and how quickly it can be brought to the location). But all of this can be prevented. Imagine you know an eruption is coming like Mount St. Helen as you mentioned. Earthquakes telegraphed the revival of that volcano for a solid two weeks before anything began to escalate. 

So imagine you now know a volcano is going to potentially erupt and you have the full access to all the surges from the radiants. Have stonewards use tension to strengthen the sides of the volcano facing population centers with periodic vents dotting its length. Use soulcasting, cohesion, and division to create cracks, fissures, and tubes all along and at specific points of the side of the mountain pointed away from population centers creating a release valve and path of least resistance to direct the explosion and debris away. I would also imagine (though I am not a vulcanologist) that if we in the modern world had ways to divert lava flows, and create targeted release valves into the rock to prevent the growing pressure like the radiants could using their surges, we could eliminate the danger of volcanoes altogether. 

I actually read a book with this same idea of controlling pressure release to prevent eruption.  It would work - it's just extremely dangerous with the equipment and technology we currently have.  (It's a storming volcano, of course it's dangerous.)  The Radiants could absolutely do this.  They would need to be highly skilled, and I would still reccomend evacuation as a precaution.  But it would work.