Question about Soulcasting and Jasnah

[+Q10fanatic]

I was rereading TWoK and I noticed something new in the scene at the hospital where Jasnah soulcasts the bread and the jam. When Jasnah and Shallan are talking about it later, Jasnah tells her that she accidentally soulcast the antidote away when she transformed the jam. Similarly, she transformed the bread and the poison that she put in her mouth. But, how can she accidentally soulcast something? Here is what I understand about soulcasting:

• When you soulcast, you (or your mind) travel partially into Shadesmar
• You speak with the bead/soul of the object that you want to transform
• An object develops a soul based on how it is perceived by others over time
• Objects in the physical realm that are made of multiple parts, but are perceived as one thing, have only a single soul/bead
• From The Emperor's Soul: Objects that have been put together recently see themselves as distinct objects in Shadesmar and the spiritual realm. Presumably, this means that they have multiple beads/souls.

If I am right about the above points, shouldn't Jasnah have realized that there were two cognitively distinct objects that she was soulcasting? The poison and the antidote had only been recently added to the bread and the jam. They had spent the vast majority of their existence as "poison" and "antidote" so they should have their own bead in Shadesmar, right? Even if Jasnah only perceived them as bread and jam at first and can combine them together, she should have had a moment where she perceived separate beads. If that is correct, then I would expect Jasnah to warn Shallan or accuse Kabsal or simply soulcast the poison and antidote but leave the bread and jam. Yet, Jasnah admitted that she accidentally soulcast away the antidote which suggests that she didn't perceive the separate beads.

What am I missing here?

[Quantus]

She just misunderstood Kabsal's scheme.  She thought the poison was in the jam, so she Soulcast it into something else entirely thinking she was getting rid of the poison. In actuality the Poison was on the bread itself, and the Jam had the antidote.  His scheme was that he and shallan could eat the the bread with jam, and be cured of the poison, but since she had said she didnt like jams, she would not eat her bread with it and would get just the poison.  

As far as her being able to perceive the Poison as a separate thing from the Jam, I doubt it.  For one thing inanimate objects adjust to their new state relatively quickly, so unless the antidote was added very recently it would have just been incorporated into the "Jam" mixture as one of it's many ingredients, which she soulcast away when she dipped her finger into the jam jar.  Had it been poison sprinkled onto a fresh fruit or somethign more "pure" it might have been different, but jam is already a mixture so I imagine it was easier (and thus quicker) to accept the addition as part of it's whole.

[Pathfinder]

16 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I was rereading TWoK and I noticed something new in the scene at the hospital where Jasnah soulcasts the bread and the jam. When Jasnah and Shallan are talking about it later, Jasnah tells her that she accidentally soulcast the antidote away when she transformed the jam. Similarly, she transformed the bread and the poison that she put in her mouth. But, how can she accidentally soulcast something? Here is what I understand about soulcasting:

• When you soulcast, you (or your mind) travel partially into Shadesmar
• You speak with the bead/soul of the object that you want to transform
• An object develops a soul based on how it is perceived by others over time
• Objects in the physical realm that are made of multiple parts, but are perceived as one thing, have only a single soul/bead
• From The Emperor's Soul: Objects that have been put together recently see themselves as distinct objects in Shadesmar and the spiritual realm. Presumably, this means that they have multiple beads/souls.

If I am right about the above points, shouldn't Jasnah have realized that there were two cognitively distinct objects that she was soulcasting? The poison and the antidote had only been recently added to the bread and the jam. They had spent the vast majority of their existence as "poison" and "antidote" so they should have their own bead in Shadesmar, right? Even if Jasnah only perceived them as bread and jam at first and can combine them together, she should have had a moment where she perceived separate beads. If that is correct, then I would expect Jasnah to warn Shallan or accuse Kabsal or simply soulcast the poison and antidote but leave the bread and jam. Yet, Jasnah admitted that she accidentally soulcast away the antidote which suggests that she didn't perceive the separate beads.

What am I missing here?

Pretty much everything Quantus said. For the fundamentals behind that, here is a WoB about the "ship of theseus" and how it applies to the Cosmere. 

 

Oversleep

I have a philosophy question that could actually be answered in cosmere:

Ship of Theseus in cosmere. If I went and replaced every part of the ship, would it still - Cognitively - be the same thing?

What if I replaced everything and made a second ship out of the parts from the first one? What could somebody watching all of that from Shadesmar tell me?

Brandon Sanderson

You're right, part of the design of the cosmere (which has some deep roots in classical philosophy) was an attempt to answer the Ship of Theseus question.

In the cosmere, part of the Cognitive--and even spiritual--aspect of a thing (particularly if it isn't sentient) is delineated by the way that thinking beings define it. Per the old joke about the axe, if you replace your axe head and think of the new axe as "Your Axe," then the cognitive and spiritual aspects of that thing will grow to reflect that.

If you replaced every part of your ship, and gave the sailors time to sail it, thinking of it as the same ship--it would become the same ship.

Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 9, 2017)

[+Q10fanatic]

 

25 minutes ago, Quantus said:

For one thing inanimate objects adjust to their new state relatively quickly

That flies in the face of everything we learn about the Cognitive and Spiritual realms in The Emperors Soul. Shai had to forge each vein of rock separately precisely because the pieces considered themselves separate from each other, even though they were all part of the wall in her initial cell. In the reverse, Dalinar hears the rocks crying out to become the building even though it has been weeks since the Everstorm broke Thaylen City.

28 minutes ago, Quantus said:

it would have just been incorporated into the "Jam" mixture as one of it's many ingredients, which she soulcast away when she dipped her finger into the jam jar.

That assumes that Jasnah's perception trumps Kabsal's. He still perceived it as jam + antidote. And he had been around the items longer than Jasnah. Not that this could have stopped her from soulcasting it, but I don't understand why she didn't perceive them as separate.

33 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Had it been poison sprinkled onto a fresh fruit or somethign more "pure" it might have been different,

I mean, my question applies equally to the poison that was sprinkled onto the bread. There was no mixing of the ingredients there, the bread was just a vehicle for the poison.

Assuming that Kabsal has been using the same jar of poison powder this entire time, the poison has existed as a distinct entity for far longer than the bread.

33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

If you replaced every part of your ship, and gave the sailors time to sail it, thinking of it as the same ship--it would become the same ship

Ok, that makes sense to me in principle but it seems like Kabsal would NOT be thinking of these things as one object. He thinks of them as "Bread" and "Poison" and "Jam" and "Antidote" right? This is his whole goal, to get the poison to Jasnah.

 

I suppose this question could also be applied to the men she soulcast in the alley. I think the clothes and weapons were soulcast along with the men. There's just not many examples of the mechanics of soulcasting multiple objects into one thing.

 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

 

That flies in the face of everything we learn about the Cognitive and Spiritual realms in The Emperors Soul. Shai had to forge each vein of rock separately precisely because the pieces considered themselves separate from each other, even though they were all part of the wall in her initial cell. In the reverse, Dalinar hears the rocks crying out to become the building even though it has been weeks since the Everstorm broke Thaylen City.

That assumes that Jasnah's perception trumps Kabsal's. He still perceived it as jam + antidote. And he had been around the items longer than Jasnah. Not that this could have stopped her from soulcasting it, but I don't understand why she didn't perceive them as separate.

I mean, my question applies equally to the poison that was sprinkled onto the bread. There was no mixing of the ingredients there, the bread was just a vehicle for the poison.

Assuming that Kabsal has been using the same jar of poison powder this entire time, the poison has existed as a distinct entity for far longer than the bread.

Ok, that makes sense to me in principle but it seems like Kabsal would NOT be thinking of these things as one object. He thinks of them as "Bread" and "Poison" and "Jam" and "Antidote" right? This is his whole goal, to get the poison to Jasnah.

 

I suppose this question could also be applied to the men she soulcast in the alley. I think the clothes and weapons were soulcast along with the men. There's just not many examples of the mechanics of soulcasting multiple objects into one thing.

 

Quick response, will add more later, but the gist is this. Seeing component parts of an item requires the person soulcasting to be very practiced and heading towards savantism as well as intending to separate out component parts. That requires awareness of the parts existence and conceptualizing it as separate. Its mistborn spoilers:

 

Spoiler

Like wax with the bullet

Sorry doing a poor attempt at explaining. I have better examples and more to say but have to run at the moment.

 

Edit: quick side note, forging and soulcasting are functionally different. Soulcasting has access to more power to force the change

Edited May 7, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Quantus]

 

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

 

That flies in the face of everything we learn about the Cognitive and Spiritual realms in The Emperors Soul. Shai had to forge each vein of rock separately precisely because the pieces considered themselves separate from each other, even though they were all part of the wall in her initial cell. In the reverse, Dalinar hears the rocks crying out to become the building even though it has been weeks since the Everstorm broke Thaylen City.

That assumes that Jasnah's perception trumps Kabsal's. He still perceived it as jam + antidote. And he had been around the items longer than Jasnah. Not that this could have stopped her from soulcasting it, but I don't understand why she didn't perceive them as separate.

I mean, my question applies equally to the poison that was sprinkled onto the bread. There was no mixing of the ingredients there, the bread was just a vehicle for the poison.

Assuming that Kabsal has been using the same jar of poison powder this entire time, the poison has existed as a distinct entity for far longer than the bread.

Ok, that makes sense to me in principle but it seems like Kabsal would NOT be thinking of these things as one object. He thinks of them as "Bread" and "Poison" and "Jam" and "Antidote" right? This is his whole goal, to get the poison to Jasnah.

 

I suppose this question could also be applied to the men she soulcast in the alley. I think the clothes and weapons were soulcast along with the men. There's just not many examples of the mechanics of soulcasting multiple objects into one thing.

 

Kabsal's perception doesnt factor in at all, he is not involved in the Soulcasting.  The only perceptions that will have any noticeable impact the Soulcasting are Jasnah, Ivory, and the object of the soulcasting itself.  And the objects is presumable the least impact given that Jasnah can soulcast fully sentient people into flame, so it's primarily just Jasnah and Ivory.  That part of the equation has to do with the Investiture, which is what give them the leverage to actively overide the base-level reality.  

As far as how it compares to other magics, the statue was significantly older with (presumably a more settled identity, having been observed and perceived as that statue for generations relative to the short time it had been broken (and was still being perceived as a broken whole rather than separate things).  Regarding forgery, that's a Dor magic on a different planet (and thus a different cognitive framework) and Dor magics are notorious for requiring more minutia to work, such as how Bloodsealing requires that you actually know the placement of every vein and sinew.  Consider instead other Rosharan examples: Shallan found a single Bead that was an entire Keep, and as @Pathfinder mentioned that soulcaster savant going to Aimia noted that it takes significantly more skill to be able to affect only a part of the whole, not the other way around.  

At the end of the day Soulcasting's effect and capabilities vary widely with the skill and understanding of the Soulcaster in question, and those skills seem to be somewhat silo'd into each of the ten essenses.  Jasnah is damnation good at it, which is the only reason she was able to Soulcast Shallan's Blood without turning her into a pile of goop. In that scene she admitted she didnt know much about strawberries which limited her ability in that instance; had it been a material she knew more about, she might have been able to separate the poison from the Jam, but without knowing details of both she just defaulted to the easier soulcasting.  Similarly we have WOB that a skilled enough Soulcaster should be able to make complex foods with real taste, but the vast majority are only able to make the tasteless grub we hear about in the warcamps.

 

[Karger]

You would still see the poisoned bread as one distinct entity.  It is just a different type of bread.  So Jasnah could think "slice of bread be this!" not knowing exactly what it was. 

[+Harrycrapper]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

For one thing inanimate objects adjust to their new state relatively quickly

2 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

That flies in the face of everything we learn about the Cognitive and Spiritual realms in The Emperors Soul. Shai had to forge each vein of rock separately precisely because the pieces considered themselves separate from each other, even though they were all part of the wall in her initial cell. In the reverse, Dalinar hears the rocks crying out to become the building even though it has been weeks since the Everstorm broke Thaylen City.

I think a better way of putting this is that inanimate objects "can" adjust to their new state relatively quickly. This is a guess based on common sense and other concepts similar to the Cognitive realm in the Cosmere, but I'd say the longer an object is viewed the way it is, the longer it holds itself together in the Cognitive realm. A statue that's been around for centuries, possibly millennia, will have a stronger Cognitive aspect than some jam that's probably been in its current form for a couple months or less. Organic material goes through changes much more quickly than inorganic material like rock, so it's Cognitive aspect will reflect what happens in the real world much more quickly.

[Pathfinder]

Still dont have the time to respond in as much detail as i would like but it looks like everything has been pretty well handled. The only thing i would like to add is that there is a WoB concerning cake. that the bead in the cognitive realm would be for cake, not the individual components (flour, egg, etc). The idea is that a individual who is soulcasting the cake, that is in the know, understands the components and can get that across the the spren (another WoB showing that the only thing preventing a soulcaster from soulcasting plutonium is understanding the structure and getting the concept across to the spren), then the soulcaster could soulcast the flour out of the cake for instance. But that would still require the soulcaster to know what the thing is made of, understand it enough to be able to exclude that portion, and get that across to the spren. The jam is different because jasnah was just soulcasting the whole thing to what she understood to be strawberry jam. Its like i have a glass of water,  and you dissolve salt into it. I soulcast the water to water. The salt is "gone" because i soulcasted it all to generic water. Where it went wrong is jasnah admitted she isnt as good with organics, and since she normally dislikes jam, she doesnt have much of a base line understanding to work with to recreate it. Hopefully i didnt confuse the matter further

 

Edit: ah i had one more thought which helps this all! 

 

Powdered sugar on top of a cake when it is complete is not seen as separate. Its part of the cake

Pizza toppings are not seen as separate from the pizza when the pizza is complete. Its all seen as pizza.

So too for the poison. Its a "topping" on the cake. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Pathfinder

[Aminar]

8 hours ago, Q10fanatic said:

 

That flies in the face of everything we learn about the Cognitive and Spiritual realms in The Emperors Soul. Shai had to forge each vein of rock separately precisely because the pieces considered themselves separate from each other, even though they were all part of the wall in her initial cell. In the reverse, Dalinar hears the rocks crying out to become the building even though it has been weeks since the Everstorm broke Thaylen City.

That assumes that Jasnah's perception trumps Kabsal's. He still perceived it as jam + antidote. And he had been around the items longer than Jasnah. Not that this could have stopped her from soulcasting it, but I don't understand why she didn't perceive them as separate.

I mean, my question applies equally to the poison that was sprinkled onto the bread. There was no mixing of the ingredients there, the bread was just a vehicle for the poison.

Assuming that Kabsal has been using the same jar of poison powder this entire time, the poison has existed as a distinct entity for far longer than the bread.

Ok, that makes sense to me in principle but it seems like Kabsal would NOT be thinking of these things as one object. He thinks of them as "Bread" and "Poison" and "Jam" and "Antidote" right? This is his whole goal, to get the poison to Jasnah.

 

I suppose this question could also be applied to the men she soulcast in the alley. I think the clothes and weapons were soulcast along with the men. There's just not many examples of the mechanics of soulcasting multiple objects into one thing.

 

I think they actually had to do quite a bit of work to make that cell. The stone had to be layered, and the locations of each quarry were separate, all to keep those identities from mingling. In addition the layers weren't mingled together. They were stacked on top of each other. They're more like books on a shelf and designed to be perceived that way. Jam is meant to look like Jam. Adding in "Poison" just makes it poisoned Jam. It's still all one thing. It's made to be that way. After all, if Jasnah were to soul cast a Cosmo(cranberry juice "poisoned" with alcohol) you wouldn't expect it to come out with the alcohol still there would you? I mean! Think about how many things are myriad ingredients  that just get transformed. 

On the other hand her transforming a layer of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is almost certainly possible because the perception generally is that it's 3 separate ingredients rather than just a sandwich. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Aminar

[Karger]

1 hour ago, Aminar said:

On the other hand her transforming a layer of a peanut butter and jelly sandwich is almost certainly possible because the perception generally is that it's 3 separate ingredients rather than just a sandwich. 

You could do either really.  You just need a clear idea of what the components are.  Jasnah did not know.

[Aminar]

6 hours ago, Karger said:

You could do either really.  You just need a clear idea of what the components are.  Jasnah did not know.

I'm guessing it would be much much harder with mixtures because they're very intermingled. 

[Pathfinder]

23 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I'm guessing it would be much much harder with mixtures because they're very intermingled. 

Yep. Which is where skill, practice, and intent come into play. Shallan was impressed and had no idea it was possible till she saw Jasnah soulcast words into paper when she ran out of ink. Jasnah would need to understand the makeup of the paper, be able to perceive it as separate axia, and intend to change only the ones that shape the words she chooses to inscribe on the paper.  Incredibly difficult and awesome at the same time. Its why soulcasting is my favorite of the magics on roshar. Transportation coming second.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Q10fanatic]

8 hours ago, Karger said:

You could do either really.  You just need a clear idea of what the components are.  Jasnah did not know.

Jasnah soulcast the bread and the jam, she soulcast the men (who have at least two of the ten essences), into one object. She clearly sees them as one whole "bread" or "man attacking me" in the physical realm. Does her perception of them cause her to only see one bead/soul in Shadesmar?

Maybe this is my confusion re: Soulcasting. Does the ability to soulcast something depend on some objective cognitive state or does it depend solely on the subjective perceptions of the person doing the soulcasting?

What do we think would happen realmatically if Jasnah tried to soulcast a man while the man is holding a shovel? Let's say that the shovel thinks of itself as the man's shovel. It's an old family heirloom and the shovel has its own cognitive bead. It is an otherwise calm situation. Is Jasnah aware of the bead and the human soul as separate? Does that make Jasnah more like to soulcast only one or the other? Or if she only is focused on the man, will that mean that the shovel will remain untouched by the soulcasting?

Sorry for all the questions. I don't have a strong grasp of the theory here and I feel like I lack the language to explain what I'm trying to ask.

[+Q10fanatic]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

she saw Jasnah soulcast words into paper when she ran out of ink. Jasnah would need to understand the makeup of the paper, be able to perceive it as separate axia, and intend to change only the ones that shape the words she chooses to inscribe on the paper.

I had forgotten about that! So that would suggest that subjective perception/intent is crucial then. It doesn't matter that there is only one bead at the beginning, Jasnah is able to create a new thing out of a larger whole. So, at the higher skill levels, subjective perception or intent can overcome the objective reality of the cognitive beads not only in terms of what the object is (convincing it to change) but also how many objects there are (convincing one object to become two things, or part of an object to become a new thing). Storms! Soulcasting is strong.

[Karger]

38 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

Jasnah soulcast the bread and the jam, she soulcast the men (who have at least two of the ten essences), into one object. She clearly sees them as one whole "bread" or "man attacking me" in the physical realm. Does her perception of them cause her to only see one bead/soul in Shadesmar?

Probably.  I imagine Kaladin who has advanced medical training could soulcast just one bone fairly easily.

40 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

What do we think would happen realmatically if Jasnah tried to soulcast a man while the man is holding a shovel? Let's say that the shovel thinks of itself as the man's shovel. It's an old family heirloom and the shovel has its own cognitive bead. It is an otherwise calm situation. Is Jasnah aware of the bead and the human soul as separate? Does that make Jasnah more like to soulcast only one or the other? Or if she only is focused on the man, will that mean that the shovel will remain untouched by the soulcasting?

Jasnah soulcast the men's cloathing in the ally.  I imagine she could leave them it if she wanted to but base state apparently is them included.

[Aminar]

48 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I had forgotten about that! So that would suggest that subjective perception/intent is crucial then. It doesn't matter that there is only one bead at the beginning, Jasnah is able to create a new thing out of a larger whole. So, at the higher skill levels, subjective perception or intent can overcome the objective reality of the cognitive beads not only in terms of what the object is (convincing it to change) but also how many objects there are (convincing one object to become two things, or part of an object to become a new thing). Storms! Soulcasting is strong.

I thought she used the soulcaster to burn words onto paper. That suggests she created fire very precisely rather than soulcasting the paper itself.

[Karger]

6 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I thought she used the soulcaster to burn words onto paper. That suggests she created fire very precisely rather than soulcasting the paper itself.

She can certainly do either depending on her intent.

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

I had forgotten about that! So that would suggest that subjective perception/intent is crucial then. It doesn't matter that there is only one bead at the beginning, Jasnah is able to create a new thing out of a larger whole. So, at the higher skill levels, subjective perception or intent can overcome the objective reality of the cognitive beads not only in terms of what the object is (convincing it to change) but also how many objects there are (convincing one object to become two things, or part of an object to become a new thing). Storms! Soulcasting is strong.

(Genuine question) Did you see my Mistborn mention earlier? Wax does the same thing. Also Roshar has a general understanding of atoms. They refer to it as axi. There is a scene from Jasnah's perspective where she says to herself how she aligns the axi of the air together to create steps. So it is not convincing an object to become two things. It is seeing the object differently, or its component parts. Its the difference between seeing a couch, and then choosing to see it for the cushions, and then take away the cushions. The couch still is, just you understood and recognized a component part of it, and chose to separate it out. But recognizing the component parts does not change that it is a couch on whole. And only if you alter the couch enough that it would not be viewed as a couch anymore, would it then change. Below is the spoiler for mistborn and the quote from Oathbringer.

Spoiler

 

Wax had a pushing fight with Forsh. Wax then realized the bullet was made up of the casing, and other parts, and his line then split allowing him to choose which part to push on as he chose

 

 

 

Oathbringer page 1157

She willed steps to soulcast beneath her feet. Individual axi of air lined up and packed next to each other, then Soulcast into stone - though in spite of the realms being linked, this was difficult. Air was amorphous, even in concept. People thought of it as the sky, or a breath, or a gust of wind, or a storm, or just the air. It like to be free, difficult to define. Yet, with a firm command and a concept of what she wanted, Jasnah made steps form beneath her feet. 

16 minutes ago, Aminar said:

I thought she used the soulcaster to burn words onto paper. That suggests she created fire very precisely rather than soulcasting the paper itself.

It does say burning letters into a page. I took it as turning minuet parts of the paper directly to flame, leaving the shape of the letters. I guess the alternative of soulcasting the air into fire into those shapes, to etch the paper could work too. Either way, requires much skill, and practice. Here is the quote:

 

Way of Kings page 501

"There was also one of Jasnah burning words after running out of ink. When Shallan had seen her burning letters into a page, she'd been amazed at the Soulcaster's precision.

Edited May 8, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Q10fanatic]

21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

(Genuine question) Did you see my Mistborn mention earlier? Wax does the same thing. Also Roshar has a general understanding of atoms. They refer to it as axi. There is a scene from Jasnah's perspective where she says to herself how she aligns the axi of the air together to create steps. So it is not convincing an object to become two things. It is seeing the object differently, or its component parts. Its the difference between seeing a couch, and then choosing to see it for the cushions, and then take away the cushions. The couch still is, just you understood and recognized a component part of it, and chose to separate it out. But recognizing the component parts does not change that it is a couch on whole. And only if you alter the couch enough that it would not be viewed as a couch anymore, would it then change.

I understand (I think) what Wax is doing in the physical realm, understanding the thing's component parts and then affecting those instead of the whole. When that happens, is the cognitive aspect of the object also split into component parts? I suppose so but I don't think we've seen what happens in Scadrial for sure. (I may be misremembering, I have only read Era 2 once)

To use the couch example, if Jasnah looks at the couch in the cognitive realm she will see only a bead for the couch. Then if she looks again, intending to soulcast a cushion, she will see the distinct beads for the cushions and the couch? Or, she finds the single bead of the couch and (somehow) creates a bead for the cushion which is immediately soulcast?

[Aminar]

3 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I understand (I think) what Wax is doing in the physical realm, understanding the thing's component parts and then affecting those instead of the whole. When that happens, is the cognitive aspect of the object also split into component parts? I suppose so but I don't think we've seen what happens in Scadrial for sure. (I may be misremembering, I have only read Era 2 once)

To use the couch example, if Jasnah looks at the couch in the cognitive realm she will see only a bead for the couch. Then if she looks again, intending to soulcast a cushion, she will see the distinct beads for the cushions and the couch? Or, she finds the single bead of the couch and (somehow) creates a bead for the cushion which is immediately soulcast?

That gets into a weird space. Like... How many beads are there for specific things? Take a high thread count sheet. Do all million+ thread strands have individual beads? Is my linen closet full of more beads than there is space in my house? What about every page in a book? What would the Kharbranth library be like? You get to a point where every object has orders of magnitude more beads for the self than they have mass in the physical realm. I know there's oceans of beads, but it starts becoming this bizarre Tableau of dividing lines that would leave cognitive realm 20 times the mass of Roshar In a big ball of beads with no landmass. Without considering whether molecules have beads. Just a planet of indestructible ball bearings. It stops functioning in a logically coherent manner. It seems far more likely that each object has a single bead for its greatest whole part and when damaged or destroyed those beads split off or when created are merged. 

[+Q10fanatic]

13 minutes ago, Aminar said:

Take a high thread count sheet. Do all million+ thread strands have individual beads?

Yeah, this is all very confusing to me. I think it depends on the subjective perceptions of the viewer. Or, probably the collective perceptions of the people in the physical realm? And the soulcaster's can see more/less depending on the subjective perceptions?

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

Yeah, this is all very confusing to me. I think it depends on the subjective perceptions of the viewer. Or, probably the collective perceptions of the people in the physical realm? And the soulcaster's can see more/less depending on the subjective perceptions?

It doesn't split. I say that because: Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

In the scene with Wax and Forsh. They are both pushing on the same bullet, at the same place. Forsh was winning. Wax was getting crushed against the wall. Wax then saw the bullet as three parts, and his steel line split into three. Forsch was still pushing on the same place. Forsh did not suddenly see three lines. Forsh could not suddenly manipulate three lines. For Forsch it was still one line. Still one. Wax then focused on pushing on one part of the bullet. Forsch died with a surprised look on his face, not understanding how Wax did it

 

Bands of Mourning page 32

A bullet. Three parts of metal. The tip. The casing. And the knob at the back. The spot the hammer would hit. In that moment, to Waxillium's eyes, they split into three lines, three parts. He took them all in at once. And then, as the bar crushed him, he let go of two bits. And shoved on that knob at the back. The bullet exploded. The casing flipped backward into the air, Pushed by Forch's Allomancy, while the bullet itself zipped foward, untouched, before drilling into Forch's skull. 

 

So translating this to soulcasting

1. There is cake. there is a bead for cake

2. Jasnah seeing the cake, she understands that the cake is made of layers (sponge?) and frosting

3. Jasnah does not like frosting and wants to soulcast it to smoke leaving the layer (sponge?)

4. Holding the bead for cake, while still seeing the representation of the cake (in the cognitive holding the bead gives you the impression of how it looks in the physical, and being in the physical you can peer into the cognitive to see the bead), Jasnah focused on the frosting portion

5. To all outside observers, the stone is still a stone for cake. Cake is still cake

6. She then chooses to soulcast only the frosting. the stone is still the stone for cake

7. if she then leaves the cake the way it is without frosting (and does not choose to eat it) and people see the cake the way it is now, without frosting, the stone is still the stone, just now it is the stone for a cake without frosting

 

this would stand for the waterfalls turned to stone. you are separating a portion of the water to change it to stone. now that people see it as separate it will have its own separate bead as water now frozen as stone, but the rest of the water still continues. So from my understanding, a "stone" is only formed separate when something is separated and viewed by many as separate. As long as it is still part of the unified whole, and by the many viewed as a whole, it does not matter if you can see it separately, it does not make a new stone. that make sense now?

Edit: to take it further. Let us say the frosting is only external, i.e. it is a one layer cake. So just sponge, covered with frosting. Jasnah soulcasts the frosting to quartz. She then lifts the quartz off of the cake, leaving the sponge and places it next to the cake. People will then begin to see the quartz as a cake "lid". The frosting now has its own stone as a cake "lid". But the actual action of Jasnah perceiving the frosting as separate in order to enact soulcasting upon it does not change the stone, and does not change the stone for others. Because the other people still see and perceive it as one unified cake, sponge, frosting and all. So one stone. Regardless how Jasnah viewed it in that moment

 

edit 2: Just had a thought given my cake example. Yet another reason why I love soulcasting!

"Aw honey, you ordered your burger with no cheese on it, but they brought you a cheeseburger anyway!"

"That's no problem for me!"

::::holds burger in place, then soulcasts cheese to stone, then just peels it off in one solid chunk::::

"All fixed!"

 

edit 3: added the quote from the Mistborn book in the spoiler. As you can see, the perception on Wax's part didn't change anything for Forch, till Wax actively acted on it. 

Edited May 8, 2020 by Pathfinder

[+Q10fanatic]

47 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

She then lifts the quartz off of the cake, leaving the sponge and places it next to the cake. People will then begin to see the quartz as a cake "lid". The frosting now has its own stone as a cake "lid". But the actual action of Jasnah perceiving the frosting as separate in order to enact soulcasting upon it does not change the stone, and does not change the stone for others. Because the other people still see and perceive it as one unified cake, sponge, frosting and all. So one stone. Regardless how Jasnah viewed it in that moment

Ah, thank you. I think this made it clear to me. Whenever the number of objects in the physical realm changes, it will eventually be reflected in the cognitive realm but that does not happen instantaneously.

And now I want cake.

[theTruthshaper]

On 5/8/2020 at 10:39 PM, Aminar said:

That gets into a weird space. Like... How many beads are there for specific things? Take a high thread count sheet. Do all million+ thread strands have individual beads? Is my linen closet full of more beads than there is space in my house? What about every page in a book? What would the Kharbranth library be like? You get to a point where every object has orders of magnitude more beads for the self than they have mass in the physical realm. I know there's oceans of beads, but it starts becoming this bizarre Tableau of dividing lines that would leave cognitive realm 20 times the mass of Roshar In a big ball of beads with no landmass. Without considering whether molecules have beads. Just a planet of indestructible ball bearings. It stops functioning in a logically coherent manner. It seems far more likely that each object has a single bead for its greatest whole part and when damaged or destroyed those beads split off or when created are merged. 

No, this actually makes a lot of sense. There is a big ocean of beads, it is possible that the component beads are sort of deeper than the object beads. So, to Soulcast parts of an object you must sink deeper in to the ocean without loosing control.