Magic system of a dead Shardbearer?

[Dawnbearer he/him]

I've only read a couple books (tWoK is the only SA book I've read thus far) so I'm a little early still, but can someone help me understand why Honor's magic system is still intact if he is dead? Like, what happens when a shard is shattered? Does it still sort of function but is unable to be picked up?

I'm okay with a couple spoilers theory-wise, but if you are unable to answer this question without giving plot spoilers just say so, I can just read and find out like everyone else

Thanks.

[Honorless he/him]

I think tvtropes has a really good, completely non-spoilery explanation for this:

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NoOntologicalInertia

Those are things that the Shard has already created, they are their own thing now, they won't just disappear because their creator is gone

Edited May 4, 2020 by R J
edited for clarity

[earthexile]

The power that a Shard is made of can't really be destroyed, even if it's splattered all over the place. It all still exists and will be expressed somehow, somewhere. The Splintering just makes it so that the power isn't concentrated in a single incredible being anymore.

[Quantus he/him]

For the most part the magic systems arent the direct result of the Shard's vessel themselves, it's sort of emerges from the interaction between the shard's investiture and the cognitive realm expression of the planet (and it's population) as a whole.  The shards have immense power so they are able to modify and tweak things.  And Roshar is a little bit of a special case in a few ways.  Some of what's present there, such as the whole Investiture-in-Gems thing, predates the Shard's arrival.

 

[Karger he/him]

31 minutes ago, Quantus said:

For the most part the magic systems arent the direct result of the Shard's vessel themselves, it's sort of emerges from the interaction between the shard's investiture and the cognitive realm expression of the planet (and it's population) as a whole

Ahhh scadrial?  Honor may be shattered but honor's investiture still exists in both stormlight and spren so they can be used. 

[Quantus he/him]

27 minutes ago, Karger said:

Ahhh scadrial?  Honor may be shattered but honor's investiture still exists in both stormlight and spren so they can be used. 

I think too much talk about Scadrial would be spoilers for the OP, but yah I stand by my statement there too.  

[Karger he/him]

1 minute ago, Quantus said:

I think too much talk about Scadrial would be spoilers for the OP, but yah I stand by my statement there too.  

MB spoilers

Spoiler

But no CR stuff happens at all in scadrial except for bronze copper and emotional allomancy and those are all still fueled by direct SR transfer.

 

Edited May 4, 2020 by Karger

[Quantus he/him]

8 minutes ago, Karger said:

MB spoilers

  Hide contents

But no CR stuff happens at all in scadrial except for bronze copper and emotional allomancy and those are all still fueled by direct SR transfer.

 

Im not talking about the effects of a given use of magic, Im talking about how the Focus of the magic system itself is determined for a given shardworld. 

 

[Karger he/him]

12 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Im not talking about the effects of a given use of magic, Im talking about how the Focus of the magic system itself is determined for a given shardworld. 

OK sure.

[Dawnbearer he/him]

4 hours ago, R J said:

Those are things that the Shard has already created, they are their own thing now, they won't just disappear because their creator is gone

Makes sense. But things like when Vin drawing power directly from the mists would no longer be possible if Preservation was shattered, correct? Since that is feeding off of the Shardbearer's power itself.

[NameIess]

1 minute ago, Dawnbearer said:

Makes sense. But things like when Vin drawing power directly from the mists would no longer be possible if Preservation was shattered, correct? Since that is feeding off of the Shardbearer's power itself.

Most likely correct.

[Honorless he/him]

4 hours ago, Dawnbearer said:

Makes sense. But things like when Vin drawing power directly from the mists would no longer be possible if Preservation was shattered, correct? Since that is feeding off of the Shardbearer's power itself.

Nope, on Scadrial the Mists would become a bit mindless but would likely survive the Shard's Shattering.

Similarly, on Nalthis people would continue to Return, but the process would become systemized

Edited May 5, 2020 by R J

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, R J said:

Similarly, on Nalthis people would continue to Return, but the process would become systemized

I thought those were controlled directly(although rich people gaming that system would make for a great story).  However I agree that those with breath could continue to use breath.  Scadrial spoilers.

Spoiler

1 hour ago, R J said:

Nope, on Scadrial the Mists would become a bit mindless but would likely survive the Shard's Shattering.

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by Karger

[Honorless he/him]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

I thought those were controlled directly (although rich people gaming that system would make for a great story).  However I agree that those with breath could continue to use breath.  Scadrial spoilers.

  Reveal hidden contents

 

 

Someone had asked Brandon about it before

Spoiler

Brandon has confirmed that, yes

Spoiler

Trae

Previously, you've revealed that the mechanism that determines the Returned on Nalthis is a decision of a sapient entity... Is the determination by which the entity that selects the recipient of a Divine Breath to come back as a Returned predicated on that recipient fulfilling some purpose in the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

...Basically they are asking... "Why does the entity that picks who Returns, why did they pick who they did?" And, your question kind of implies there's, like, specific tasks to fulfill. I'm gonna say, there aren't specifics, but there are certain things this entity is looking for--

Trae

In the Physical Realm?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. There are certain things that they are looking for. Now, sometimes-- let's just say this entity is not necessarily the most consistent of entities in the cosmere when it comes to making decisions like this. But there are certain things they are looking for.

JordanCon 2018 (April 21, 2018)

Leinton (paraphrased)

If Endowment were killed, would the Returned still come?

 

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Somebody needs to hold the magic. If no one holds the magic, the magic will start to gain sentience. Interesting and bizarre things happen then, so I would say yes, but with the caveat that with whoever picks up the power or what happens with the power could end up changing that.

Words of Radiance San Diego signing (March 4, 2014)

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by R J
no one "sssssked" Brandon

[Dawnbearer he/him]

10 hours ago, R J said:

picks up the power

Oh, can a shard still be picked up after the Vessel has been killed? I thought that killing the Vessel shattered the shard and rendered it--but not the Shardworld or previously established investiture systems--sterile and unusable. But I guess not?

I know I'm really getting into material for books I haven't read yet, but that's okay at a minor level.

[Honorless he/him]

Just now, Dawnbearer said:

Oh, can a shard still be picked up after the Vessel has been killed? I thought that killing the Vessel shattered the shard and rendered it--but not the Shardworld or previously established investiture systems--sterile and unusable. But I guess not?

I know I'm really getting into material for books I haven't read yet, but that's okay at a minor level.

Shattering a Shard and killing a Vessel are indeed two different things, though Shattering a Shard usually kills the Vessel

[Dawnbearer he/him]

6 hours ago, R J said:

Shattering a Shard and killing a Vessel are indeed two different things, though Shattering a Shard usually kills the Vessel

Gotcha, thanks. The rest of my questions can wait for WoR and beyond