Why would Odium be surprised about Dalinar taking up the Shard of Honor?

[Ripheus23]

Suppose that Dalinar reinterpreted the Shard of Honor as one of Unity, and this is why he says, "I am Unity." There are a lot of reasons why that doesn't make any sense, but one I didn't think of before was: then why would Odium act surprised, there? He knows Shards can be picked up and reinterpreted. He also knows that Dalinar is not claiming to be Tanavast, after all. In fact, Dalinar is not Tanavast. Odium killed Tanavast and broke the Shard of Honor, but wouldn't it be weird if Odium was screaming at the Shard of Honor in surprise, then? So Unity is something that Odium thinks he killed and is surprised to find alive then---not the Shard of Honor reinterpreted, seemingly.

EDIT: Gah, this is supposed to be in the SA forum.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Ripheus23

[Frustration]

As far as I understand a splintered shard is almost impossible to pick up. Additionally he could be talking about Dalinar's good side, thinking that he killed the better Dalinar.

[Karger he/him]

33 minutes ago, Ripheus23 said:

So Unity is something that Odium thinks he killed and is surprised to find alive then---not the Shard of Honor reinterpreted, seemingly.

That does seem to be the consensus and I personally think it makes the most sense.

26 minutes ago, Frustration said:

As far as I understand a splintered shard is almost impossible to pick up. Additionally he could be talking about Dalinar's good side, thinking that he killed the better Dalinar.

to the best of my knowledge we don't actually have any information on how one would go about picking up a splintered shard.  As to him killing part of Dalinar.  That is an interesting theory but who would the we be?  The royal we? 

[Frustration]

Just now, Karger said:

 but who would the we be?  The royal we? 

Odium and the Thrill.

[Karger he/him]

2 minutes ago, Frustration said:

Odium and the Thrill.

Hm.  That still does not answer the question about why Odium finds good Dalinar so scary.

[Frustration]

Just now, Karger said:

Hm.  That still does not answer the question about why Odium finds good Dalinar so scary.

Not yet. *adds that to my unofficial list of things to look for in RoW*

[Thanatos]

I think he was talking to Uncle Andy who was shattered and died, with the help of the other 15 plus people who were there.

Thats if your talking about the part where he says "we killed you". 

I reckon he saw Uncle Andy from the SR, and crapped himself as he appears before his God, full of sin, being judged. 

If shards could soil themselves, Odium did at that time.

Edited April 22, 2020 by Thanatos

[Ripheus23]

No, bringing in Adonalsium like that would be a deus ex machina and would push the story's boundaries too much, I suspect.

[Thanatos]

His SR aspect. 

It happened when Dalinar combined the three realms. 

Odium does not appear to be talking to Dalinar, whoever it was got Rayse really scared. From memory.

[Ripheus23]

2 hours ago, Thanatos said:

whoever it was got Rayse really scared

I got the impression that Rayse was surprised, angry even, but not afraid. But I can't justify that impression too specifically.

[Honorless he/him]

The point of Splintering a Shard's power is that it doesn't just take another Vessel, we know that Splintered Shards can be put back together from the author himself, Odium might very well not know.

The 'we' has been speculated to be a royal 'we' or a team-up with Autonomy or simply Odium referring to his collective forces of the Unmade, Fused, Thunderclast, Voidspren, Voidbinders,...

[Thanatos]

If only he wouldn't give us a RafO card on this.

[joesleepsalot he/him]

I tend to agree with Thanatos.... that Dalinar’s union of the gloryspren and temporary restoration of Honor’s perpendicularity was foreshadowing a full union of adonalsium?? (Hard for me to be very in involved in the Cosmere with kids driving me nuts perpetually lol, my time to search forums and stuff is limited)  

on that note, can anyone explain what exactly even happened in that scene? Dalinar ascended but what does that even mean? He didn’t ascend the way Sazed did... and his line to the stormfather about his will, my soul, honors power (something like that) does nothing to explain what happened. Honor is still dead and splintered.....??

[mathiau he/him]

On 23/04/2020 at 0:03 AM, Karger said:

o the best of my knowledge we don't actually have any information on how one would go about picking up a splintered shard.  As to him killing part of Dalinar.  That is an interesting theory but who would the we be?  The royal we? 

Secret History spoiler

Spoiler

Actually we've seen Kelsier take up a partially splitered Preservation

On 06/05/2020 at 7:29 AM, joesleepsalot said:

on that note, can anyone explain what exactly even happened in that scene? Dalinar ascended but what does that even mean? He didn’t ascend the way Sazed did... and his line to the stormfather about his will, my soul, honors power (something like that) does nothing to explain what happened. Honor is still dead and splintered.....??

I think he ascended the way Rashek did

Edited May 8, 2020 by mathiau

[Master Silver]

I agree with mathiau, I think Dalinar ascended the way Rashek did, but with less of the investiture of the shard available, if we compare feats between the two. One difference is that this ascension seems to be more permanent, even if it is to a lesser degree. Dalinar's power isn't fading. I think Odium was mostly surprised that the bond between Dalinar and the Storm Father seems to be making both of them stronger. How much more aware will the Storm Father been at idea 4 or 5.   

[mathiau he/him]

1 hour ago, Master Silver said:

I agree with mathiau, I think Dalinar ascended the way Rashek did, but with less of the investiture of the shard available, if we compare feats between the two. One difference is that this ascension seems to be more permanent, even if it is to a lesser degree. Dalinar's power isn't fading. I think Odium was mostly surprised that the bond between Dalinar and the Storm Father seems to be making both of them stronger. How much more aware will the Storm Father been at idea 4 or 5.   

I disagree with Dalinar's power not fading, I believe creating stormlight is a normal thing for third oath Boundsmith -although the closet I could come to a confirmation was this. During the battle he doesn't seems to need any physical effort to create stormlight but afterward it's described as almost painful to do it.

I would guess Odium was surprised that the bond between Dalinar and the Storm Father made them able to create a perpendicularity, which he was the first Boundsmith to do (and could be what  you meant by making both of them stronger )

[Master Silver]

When I say power not fading, I mean he still can create a perpendicularity. For Rashek,he only retained the power to move planets and change things for a few moments. Dalinar, aside from the power up of swearing the third oath (and those power ups fade, like Kaladin's upon swearing the third idea) , but the new ability to create Honor's perpendicularity remained. I think in general we are on the same page though 

[mathiau he/him]

16 minutes ago, Nameless said:

Spoiler.

Sorry, thought we were in the full Cosmere thread

[+Child of Hodor]

On 4/22/2020 at 9:07 PM, Ripheus23 said:

I got the impression that Rayse was surprised, angry even, but not afraid. But I can't justify that impression too specifically.

Yeah, he seemed surprised and angry when Dalinar did the clap. I think he's surprised because moments earlier he thought he'd won Dalinar over as his champion. Odium was aware of the possibility that Honor can be pieced back together. In OB Ch. 57 Odium tells Dalinar that he can't leave behind the remnants of Honor as he once thought he could "I can already see that going wrong".

I think the "we killed you" was directed at Tanavast. The whole Unity thing was Tanavast's idea. He couldn't change what he was, he'd been the vessel of Honor for too long, but he could set it up for someone else to become Unity, an interpretation of Honor that is more useful against Odium who likes to divide people and sow conflict. 

Tanavast set up the Stormfather to absorb Tanavast's cognitive shadow and his cognitive shadow still has Connection to the remnants of Honor's power because Tanavast was the vessel. Tanavast set it up for a bondsmith to gain connection to Honor's remnants and gave this future person instructions: "unite them"

Tanavast tells Dalinar to "unite them" in almost every vision. Odium has seen most if not all the visions. He was lurking in them before he revealed himself to Dalinar. In OB Ch. 109 after Odium breaks into and shreds the vision Dalinar and Venli were in he recreates the vision.

Quote

"What were you seeing?" Odium asked, curious. He tapped his scepter on the ground like a cane. Nohadon's palace ... "Ah, this one again? Looking for answers from the dead?"

Odium is familiar with this vision even though he didn't show up in it previously. He's seen it and likely most or all the others. He's heard Tanavast say "Unite Them" over and over again, so when Dalinar calls himself Unity and creates Honor's perpendicularity Odium sees Tanavast's idea coming to life. He knows Tanavast's cognitive shadow is around because it was absorbed by the Stormfather who is bonded to Dalinar, Tanavast is in there somewhere and Odium yells at him. 

Who is the "we"? I got nothin'.

[Master Silver]

As far as the we goes, Odium could have been including the unmade as part of the "we". Some of the unmade seem to be like his generals, while others, like the thrill act as hunting dogs.

[+Child of Hodor]

7 minutes ago, Master Silver said:

As far as the we goes, Odium could have been including the unmade as part of the "we". Some of the unmade seem to be like his generals, while others, like the thrill act as hunting dogs.

That makes sense, Odium could be referring to his forces the Fused, the Unmade etc. Team effort! There's no "I" in "Murder". 

The thing is Honor died in the middle of the 4,500 year between the Last Desolation and present day when the Fused were sealed on Braize. Then again it can take a long time for a Shard vessel to die and the Fused's efforts over the course of the desolations may have helped Odium achieve his goal of killing Honor. 

Odium could be talking to Evi or her spiritual corpse anyways. Right before Dalinar claps he hears Evi say she forgives him. Odium could be like "no you can't forgive him, he and I killed you! Stay mad about it!!" It's not my preferred explanation, but it fits. 

[Thanatos]

Never thought about him seeing Tanavast CS, i was thinking an Uncle Andy shadow or possibly like a living water mark of Uncle Andy. 

Hmm now ive got Tanavast on the table, interesting.

Edited July 20, 2020 by Thanatos

[The Skybreakers he/him]

I always imagined he was angry at the Storm father, well, scared, kinda, because while he knew the stormfather existed, he never knew he could do this- 

 

Tbh this theory is looking pretty fragile after reading the others

[+Bzhydack he/him]

Why Odium was surpriced and scared when Dalinar make his famous clap? For me it is relativly simple - Odium was scared because Dalinar did something what shouldnt be possible for mortal, Radiant or not. Open Perpendicularity isnt small thing, this is something what can be made only by entity with power on Shards level. Is also second thing - Dalinar did something what Odium wasnt able to predict - and he has really good futuresight. So what Dalinar did was like: "You think you know future? Nah" - and this is scary, because this mean every your plans can fall apart.

[Ishar]

I am gonna ask the question here, did Dalinar even actually ascend? Summoning a perpendicularity is certainly impressive, but (correct me if I am wrong) I don't think you actually have to Ascend to do that. Perpendicularities (as I understand it) appear where there are highly concentrated amounts of a shards investiture, which Dalinar certainly summoned, but I don't remember it feeling all that much like he was directly wielding all of it, especially since the "glowing beacon" (as I definitely remember it being described) consisted of a ton of gloryspren. Here is the first WoB I found on it: https://wob.coppermind.net/events/377/#e12295 which, big surprise, is mostly a RAFO. I think though that the way Dalinar was able to gather enough of a shattered shard in one place certainly implies that Dalinar would/will be able to eventually reconstruct the shard as a whole.