Population Growth on Roshar?

[+Q10fanatic]

I'm honestly a little confused about Roshar's population growth over the past 4+ millennia. Roshar has seen remarkable technological progress, going from the Bronze Age to turn-of-the-century 1800s/1900s technology in some ways. But, they have had certain advantages that should have led to a massive growth in the human population and I don't think we see that on Roshar.

1. They have not had Desolations in 4,500 years. These were society-crushing events and I'm sure the effect of fighting off a genocidal god is not good for planet-wide population.

2. They have not (ever?) had large-scale sickness due to the relatively high investiture on the planet. I don't remember the specific WOB, but Brandon has said that the "plague" on the Purelake is just the common cold and the Rosharians simply have no frame of reference for a true devastating sickness. Also, they have a lot of basic sanitation/medical knowledge from the Heralds.

3. They have not faced large-scale famine. While the environment is incredibly harsh, it also provides the materials (gemstones) that allow soulcasters to simply create food. They can create so much food that armies don't need supply lines. This means that they also have the ability to support a much larger population than actual food production would suggest.

So I would expect there to be absolutely massive population growth, like we've seen in the past 70 years or so on Earth, but I don't think that has happened on Roshar. Fertility doesn't seem to be lower for humans on Roshar, so what is slowing the population growth? Unless cities are regularly getting wiped out in wars of conquest, populations shouldn't be decimated by non-Desolation wars right?

[Karger he/him]

9 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

3. They have not faced large-scale famine. While the environment is incredibly harsh, it also provides the materials (gemstones) that allow soulcasters to simply create food. They can create so much food that armies don't need supply lines. This means that they also have the ability to support a much larger population than actual food production would suggest.

I think this actually might be the problem.  On Roshar total war was discovered much earlier.  Killing off 10% of Azir's population is not something that most middle ages people would have been capable of even if they wanted to simply because their army would run out of food.

Edited April 8, 2020 by Karger

[BasementDwellingRadiant]

Something else to consider:

It was mentioned in one of Dalinar's PoVs during Oathbringer that the armies had almost hunted the chasm fiends to extinction. It was also mentioned by Navani(?), though I don't remember where, that the chasm fiend gem hears were the first significantly sized gem hearts discovered in quite some time. The combination of these two factors might actually end up leading to famine depending on how often gemstones shatter during soul casting. If enough large gems break, the populous might need to resort to alternative methods of food transportation and development.

[Chiberty]

1 hour ago, Q10fanatic said:

I'm honestly a little confused about Roshar's population growth over the past 4+ millennia. Roshar has seen remarkable technological progress, going from the Bronze Age to turn-of-the-century 1800s/1900s technology in some ways. But, they have had certain advantages that should have led to a massive growth in the human population and I don't think we see that on Roshar.

1. They have not had Desolations in 4,500 years. These were society-crushing events and I'm sure the effect of fighting off a genocidal god is not good for planet-wide population.

2. They have not (ever?) had large-scale sickness due to the relatively high investiture on the planet. I don't remember the specific WOB, but Brandon has said that the "plague" on the Purelake is just the common cold and the Rosharians simply have no frame of reference for a true devastating sickness. Also, they have a lot of basic sanitation/medical knowledge from the Heralds.

3. They have not faced large-scale famine. While the environment is incredibly harsh, it also provides the materials (gemstones) that allow soulcasters to simply create food. They can create so much food that armies don't need supply lines. This means that they also have the ability to support a much larger population than actual food production would suggest.

So I would expect there to be absolutely massive population growth, like we've seen in the past 70 years or so on Earth, but I don't think that has happened on Roshar. Fertility doesn't seem to be lower for humans on Roshar, so what is slowing the population growth? Unless cities are regularly getting wiped out in wars of conquest, populations shouldn't be decimated by non-Desolation wars right?

It's the highstorms. Imagine Earth's history, but every few days, it gets hit by a category 5 hurricane. Of course, the intensity is less the farther west you are, but they are definitely what is causing the slower population growth. Remember, in Alethkar, they can only build cities in laits, or the highstorms will destroy it.

[Gilphon]

It kinda seems like Soulcasters aren't common enough outside of Alethkar to be able to prevent famine. Like we had that scene with Evi's brother (whose name escapes me) where they had to explain to him that Soulcasters made sieges pointless, implying that that's not the way things work in Iri. 

[king of nowhere]

soulcasting is an addititional source of food, not the solution to all food-related problems. soulcasting is still limited by how many gems you can harvest. many  animals grow them, but then you need to breed the animal, which requires pastures.

no, soulcasters do not hugely impact food production. they are good to supply an army, because instead of sending a long line of carts heaped with food which may spoil anyway, you just need some gems. but getting those gems was no less expensive than farming the equivalent food in the first place.

And a lot of land on roshar is too rough to be farmed. too exposed to the winds, mostly. so, there's your population cap.

now, from the families we see (dalinar and kaladin) it seems that the population practices some form of birth control, because we don't see any of the large families with a half dozen brothers that were common in the past. probably they have some natural contraceptive.

[jamesbondsmith He/him]

The Alethi have degenerated to constantly fighting among themselves and have structured their entire culture around justifying war, to the point that settling conflicts peacefully is considered utter cowardice. Not to mention that at least once in the past they killed 10% of a conquered people, and Dalinar himself destroyed an enemy city completely. That would keep at least their own population down.

Plus, there's numerous cases of people dying by accident, hunting, crime, disease, and among the lower darkeyed ranks I'd wager that poverty would lead many to starve. It doesn't matter how much food Soulcasters create if you can't pay for it, or if it is withheld from you as it was from the people of Kholinar by Aesudan.

[Ripheus23]

17 hours ago, Karger said:

On Roshar total war was discovered much earlier.  Killing off 10% of Azir's population is not something that most middle ages people would have been capable of even if they wanted to simply because their army would run out of food.

Hmm, IDK, from Troy to Carthage to Jerusalem to Jerusalem (again) to Baghdad to Beziers (actually all the Languedoc region?) to... the list goes on and on... China's population has collapsed so many times.

If the False Desolation were 2000 years back, I wonder how much population loss was involved? Or during the fall of the Hierocracy? The scouring of Aimia? Etc.

But the real reason is that democide is not the most appealing subject of study, so I doubt Sanderson has the most overly developed history of Rosharan demographics re: democide. In fact, no fantasy author that I can remember reading has ever addressed this topic in much detail. I remember reading descriptions of wars from The Wheel of Time and attributing death tolls to them (based on IRL analogies) only to find out that there are canonical numbers that are much lower. Tolkien has Sauron plague-decimating Middle-Earth once upon a time (IIRC), the Prince of Nothing series has some pertinent scenes, ditto for Goodkind's work, etc. but it's not an aspect of worldbuilding that receives much attention, it seems.

[king of nowhere]

20 hours ago, Karger said:

  On Roshar total war

now i hope they make "roshar total war" as yet another game in the "total war" installment. play as any one of the alethi highprinces and carve your empire. genocide against the azish is optional

[Frustration]

3 hours ago, Ripheus23 said:

Tolkien has Sauron plague-decimating Middle-Earth once upon a time (IIRC), 

It wasn't Sauron but yes there was a plauge a few oh, decades, centuries? Whatever before Lotr.