Fabrials and Radiant Spren

[Impact]

Radiant spren can become anything they want, though we only ever see dead spren as swords.  

What about the spren that chose to become other things than weapons?  Could that be where some of the ancient fabrials came from?  Maybe Soulcasters are really dead Inkspren, and the fabrial used by Nale was a dead cultivationspren?

 

[RShara]

We see the Radiant in the Starfalls vision use a Regrowth fabrial. And I think their living spren would have huge issue with their Radiant using a dead cousin (similar to how Syl and the Stormfather react to dead spren Blades).

Anyway, the spren Blades default to sword shape when they died, because they were based on the Honorblades, which were swords.

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Questioner

I know at the end of Words of Radiance Syl shows she can turn into different forms, not just a sword. Why do they not... Or why do none of the other past Radiants really show that they have done that. Because normally in the flashbacks they are shown just being swords.

Brandon Sanderson

So the Shardblades came from spren seeing the Honorblades, which were created for mankind, and being like "I can do that". That is what they were imitating.

Questioner

So that's what they wanted...

Brandon Sanderson

No, that's how they see themselves and how they are seen. They can change into other things...

Questioner

They just never...

Brandon Sanderson

But when you let go of one it's going to become a sword again.

Questioner

Oh, I just meant in all the visions they were always portrayed as swords. Was that just for...

Brandon Sanderson

That's cultural, like this is... One thing that is interesting is you are going to see that the new Radiants don't have... I mean the Radiants you have seen almost all of them are after thousands of years of Radiants and Orders and you have certain things that you do.

So the writing reason was I didn't want to give away...

Questioner

That's what I was going to ask.

Brandon Sanderson

There is a writing reason behind it. I didn't want to do that and give too much away. I already worried that having Syl shift shapes as often as she did through the first book was going to be a big clue to people and I wanted to hold off on giving away too much.

Firefight Chicago signing (Feb. 20, 2015)

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Questioner (paraphrased)

Why were all the Shardblades swords when they can take on any weapon form they want? Would they all revert to swords when they die?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

When they die they'd revert to the basic form which was a sword since they were patterned after Honorblades.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

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Questioner

What was the reason for choosing the base form of Shardblades as blades, why not another form? Was it because of the spren?

Brandon Sanderson

Why was the base form of Shardblades chosen to as blades, as swords? It is because the Shardblades were devised... They were devised as imitations of the Honorblades, which were created and given to the Heralds. And so since the original pattern was the Honorblades, they were built to feel like the Honorblades.

JordanCon 2014 (April 11, 2014)

Oh, and the Davars accidentally sliced through their Soulcaster with a regular sword. So it's definitely not made of the same material as a Shardblade.

 

 

Edited February 11, 2020 by RShara

[Impact]

Storm it!  Thought I was onto something, but I see what you mean, @RShara.  Thank you 

[Quantus]

5 minutes ago, Impact said:

Radiant spren can become anything they want, though we only ever see dead spren as swords.  

What about the spren that chose to become other things than weapons?  Could that be where some of the ancient fabrials came from?  Maybe Soulcasters are really dead Inkspren, and the fabrial used by Nale was a dead cultivationspren?

 

They cant do moving parts, for what it's worth, and they are a uniform material so many of the normal Gem&Wire fabrial designs wouldnt work. 

 

Personally I think the more powerful fabrials like the Oathgates are Soulcast that way; rather than trapping a spren and constructing a physical device, the idea is that Soulcasting convinces the Cognitive self to 100% Become the Fabrial, heart and soul. 

[Gilphon]

I mean, of course, we discard the idea that the Regrowth fabrials and Soulcasters use Cultivationspren or Inkspren, it raises the question of what they heck they are. Like surely lesser spren aren't gonna be powerful enough to fuel something like a Soulcaster.

[Karger]

48 minutes ago, Gilphon said:

I mean, of course, we discard the idea that the Regrowth fabrials and Soulcasters use Cultivationspren or Inkspren, it raises the question of what they heck they are. Like surely lesser spren aren't gonna be powerful enough to fuel something like a Soulcaster.

This is a great mystery.  The theory I like best is that this is a fifth oath achievement.

[Impact]

I very quickly accepted that this whole idea is wrong

[Quantus]

Im stating this as a lingering possibility, not a theory I honestly believe in, but I think there is every possibility that Soulcasters and/or Regrowth Fabrial's could be using Sapient spren.  The argument that they are not hinges on the assumption that living spren would object to a Sapient spren in a fabiral the same way they object to wielding Dead Shardblades.  But socially those are entirety different circumstances: shardblades are the equivalent of performing a marionette show with corpses and I think we can all agree that it's hideous on the face of it, but Fabrials are only objectionable if the Spren in question is a Slave and not a willing participant.  Back in the day, when the Radiants actually knew what was going on and had regular diplomatic contact with the various Spren races, they could have very easily arranged for willing spren to participate and have reasonable protections so they could quit if or when they wanted to go home.  The lesser spren that modern fabrials use seem more the equivalent of domesticated labor animals which is inevitably a slave-esk arrangement, but there's nothing that says Sapient spren couldnt Agree to it willingly.  And I could easily see that being an attractive alternative to a spren that wants to travel to the Physical Realm and/or help the Desolation War Efforts, but doesnt want to go so far as actually Merging Souls with a Radiant. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Im stating this as a lingering possibility, not a theory I honestly believe in, but I think there is every possibility that Soulcasters and/or Regrowth Fabrial's could be using Sapient spren.  The argument that they are not hinges on the assumption that living spren would object to a Sapient spren in a fabiral the same way they object to wielding Dead Shardblades.  But socially those are entirety different circumstances: shardblades are the equivalent of performing a marionette show with corpses and I think we can all agree that it's hideous on the face of it, but Fabrials are only objectionable if the Spren in question is a Slave and not a willing participant.  Back in the day, when the Radiants actually knew what was going on and had regular diplomatic contact with the various Spren races, they could have very easily arranged for willing spren to participate and have reasonable protections so they could quit if or when they wanted to go home.  The lesser spren that modern fabrials use seem more the equivalent of domesticated labor animals which is inevitably a slave-esk arrangement, but there's nothing that says Sapient spren couldnt Agree to it willingly.  And I could easily see that being an attractive alternative to a spren that wants to travel to the Physical Realm and/or help the Desolation War Efforts, but doesnt want to go so far as actually Merging Souls with a Radiant. 

I have a theory, (with nothing concrete to back it, to be fully upfront) that upon "natural" death of a radiant (natural as in either old age, or violent in battle) without breaking the oaths prior, the spren has three choices. 

 

1. mourn the radiant, losing their increased connection to the physical realm, returning to the cognitive realm and chose not to bond further

2. mourn the radiant, and chose to bond a new person to rejoin the war effort

3. mourn the radiant, and bond with the fabrial, maintaining the oath level/strength they were while the radiant was alive, but still being able to assist in the war effort without feeling like they have abandoned their deceased radiant

 

I also think a sign that surge fabrials are different than "normal" fabrials is it seems that for "normal" fabrials the spren is trapped in the gemstone, and the metal casing around it manipulates that gemstone containing the spren. Soulcasters and Regrowth seems to operate differently. The gemstones act towards the effect. So soulcasting, the gemstones determine what essence is used. For Regrowth, specific gemstones are used to heal. Yet the gemstones can be replaced when cracked, while the fabrial can still theoretically function. A single stone in a soulcaster shattering for instance, while being able to still soulcast with the other stones. So I do not believe the radiant spren get trapped in gemstones like spren for "normal" soulcasters.

[RShara]

4 hours ago, Quantus said:

Im stating this as a lingering possibility, not a theory I honestly believe in, but I think there is every possibility that Soulcasters and/or Regrowth Fabrial's could be using Sapient spren.  The argument that they are not hinges on the assumption that living spren would object to a Sapient spren in a fabiral the same way they object to wielding Dead Shardblades.  But socially those are entirety different circumstances: shardblades are the equivalent of performing a marionette show with corpses and I think we can all agree that it's hideous on the face of it, but Fabrials are only objectionable if the Spren in question is a Slave and not a willing participant.  Back in the day, when the Radiants actually knew what was going on and had regular diplomatic contact with the various Spren races, they could have very easily arranged for willing spren to participate and have reasonable protections so they could quit if or when they wanted to go home.  The lesser spren that modern fabrials use seem more the equivalent of domesticated labor animals which is inevitably a slave-esk arrangement, but there's nothing that says Sapient spren couldnt Agree to it willingly.  And I could easily see that being an attractive alternative to a spren that wants to travel to the Physical Realm and/or help the Desolation War Efforts, but doesnt want to go so far as actually Merging Souls with a Radiant. 

The Soulcasters are easily damaged by a regular sword, which means they're not the same material as a Shardblade. And the gems are interchangable. There's no place for a spren to be.

[Quantus]

16 minutes ago, RShara said:

The Soulcasters are easily damaged by a regular sword, which means they're not the same material as a Shardblade. And the gems are interchangable. There's no place for a spren to be.

I didnt mean that they are forming whole like a shardblade, more just voluntarily entering the Fabrial/Gem. 

But that's an excellent point about the Gems being interchangeable...Hmm.  So the coppermind entry mentions that they all have three gems, which correspond to the Essences that it can affect.  But it then says that fabrials that can actually use all three are rare, and that the vast majority will only do one.  That would imply that the vast majority would only be stressing, cracking, and replacing one of their gems, yes?  So perhaps the spren can share or hop the gems, so they'd remain active so long as all three dont break at the same time?  It would be one way to explain why the 3-essence fabrials are so rare, because they are easier to permanently destroy with simple use. 

That's all just spitballing a guess.  Fabrials still bug me, I really dont understand their construction parameters yet. 

Edited February 12, 2020 by Quantus

[Pathfinder]

Came across a scene that I think is pertinent to this discussion. This is the oathgate spren talking:

 

"We are apologetic. We have been.....alone very long. We would enjoy granting passage to men again."

 

So at least on some level the radiant spren associated with the oathgate are doing so voluntarily, and they even enjoyed it.