Compounding Iron while using the surge of Gravitation

[Feruchemical Skybreaker he/him]

If you compound Iron and tap an Iron-mind while using the surge of gravitation to fall through the sky you could make yourself a couple thousand pounds easily. Not only would this make you insanely fast but you would have a ton of force, enough force to kill pretty much anything.

So more specifically if you weigh 137 lbs. (62 Kg) and tapped your Iron-mind to multiply your weight by 50 (feasible while compounding) making your weight 6850 lbs. (3107 Kg). 5 ft. (1.5 m.) away if you lashed yourself toward a target you would deliver 45,073 J. (Joules), 304 times the amount of Joules needed to kill a human, which would certainly make up for any amount of stormlight and/or pewter.

If I got the math wrong please tell.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Feruchemical Skybreaker said:

If you compound Iron and tap an Iron-mind while using the surge of gravitation to fall through the sky you could make yourself a couple thousand pounds easily. Not only would this make you insanely fast but you would have a ton of force, enough force to kill pretty much anything.

Conservation of momentum applies when tapping iron.  Khriss and Wax's conversation as of BoM.  If you increase your weight while lashed you will slow down proportionally as per the formula P(momentum)=M(mass)*V(velocity).

Edited January 27, 2020 by Karger

[Feruchemical Skybreaker he/him]

sorry, could you explain more?

Ok, thank you.

Wouldn't the increase of weight increase the speed not decrease it? 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Feruchemical Skybreaker

[Karger he/him]

15 minutes ago, Feruchemical Skybreaker said:

Wouldn't the increase of weight increase the speed not decrease it? 

All things fall at the same speed normally so increasing your weight seems like it should have no effect.  However in Bands of Morning Khriss asks Wax what happens if he increases his weight while pushing on coins.  Wax initially thinks that he slows down and he thinks this is because he weighs more so now he has to push harder but Khriss(who is the greatest cosmere scholar ever) says that she thinks it is that the universe is trying to conserve momentum.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

33 minutes ago, Karger said:

52 minutes ago, Feruchemical Skybreaker said:

 

All things fall at the same speed normally so increasing your weight seems like it should have no effect.  However in Bands of Morning Khriss asks Wax what happens if he increases his weight while pushing on coins.  Wax initially thinks that he slows down and he thinks this is because he weighs more so now he has to push harder but Khriss(who is the greatest cosmere scholar ever) says that she thinks it is that the universe is trying to conserve momentum.

In that same vein, Wax also mentions decreasing his weight to gain quick spurts of speed while he’s shooting through the air.

Edited January 27, 2020 by ILuvHats

[Feruchemical Skybreaker he/him]

would increasing your weight increase your mass?

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

In that same vein, Wax also mentions decreasing his weight to gain quick spurts of speed while he’s shooting through the air.

Reference? 

Just now, Feruchemical Skybreaker said:

would increasing your weight increase your mass?

Wax does not know.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Karger

[Feruchemical Skybreaker he/him]

ok, thanks. So my idea wouldn't quite work?

[+ILuvHats he/him]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Reference? 

I don’t have my copies of Mistborn Era 2 on me, so I can’t find the passage in a timely manner. As in, it’ll be days until I can get my copies. Sorry 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Feruchemical Skybreaker said:

ok, thanks. So my idea wouldn't quite work?

The professional opinion of the greatest scholar of the arcane in the Cosmere points to a no.  That does not mean that the overall concept does not have some relevance.  For example we know that southern tec can use the metallic arts on objects.  If you could get an extremely small object to "gain mass" and then were to lash it it could conceivably do a large amount of damage by generating a lot of force in a small impact point(Vin does something similar in concept actually while burning pewter during era 1).

[Chiberty]

5 hours ago, Feruchemical Skybreaker said:

If you compound Iron and tap an Iron-mind while using the surge of gravitation to fall through the sky you could make yourself a couple thousand pounds easily. Not only would this make you insanely fast but you would have a ton of force, enough force to kill pretty much anything.

So more specifically if you weigh 137 lbs. (62 Kg) and tapped your Iron-mind to multiply your weight by 50 (feasible while compounding) making your weight 6850 lbs. (3107 Kg). 5 ft. (1.5 m.) away if you lashed yourself toward a target you would deliver 45,073 J. (Joules), 304 times the amount of Joules needed to kill a human, which would certainly make up for any amount of stormlight and/or pewter.

If I got the math wrong please tell.

 

1 hour ago, Karger said:

The professional opinion of the greatest scholar of the arcane in the Cosmere points to a no.  That does not mean that the overall concept does not have some relevance.  For example we know that southern tec can use the metallic arts on objects.  If you could get an extremely small object to "gain mass" and then were to lash it it could conceivably do a large amount of damage by generating a lot of force in a small impact point(Vin does something similar in concept actually while burning pewter during era 1).

Karger's confusing acceleration with velocity. Because of the law of conservation of momentum, you will slow down if you increase your mass while moving. If your mass doubles, your speed will half. However, in this situation involving Lashings, that would not come into play because you are not changing mass while moving. A Lashing defines an acceleration, not dependant on the mass off the object. The mass only influences the amount of Stormlight it takes. If you were to Lash yourself while tapping an ironmind, you would accelerate as normal, and you would have, as you suggested, a large amount of energy. Sadly, because of the need for stormlight as a fuel, this would still not work as you hope.

Let's say 1 Lashing gives 10 m/s^2 of acceleration (about Earth gravitational acceleration). Let's also say you have enough Stormlight to Lash your mass (50 kg) once for 1 s. Without tapping the ironmind, you will be travelling at 10 m/s after that second and have 2500 J of kinetic energy. If you tapped your ironmind enough to double your mass (to 100 kg), you would then only have enough Stormlight for .5 s of a single Lashing. After that time, you would be going at 5 m/s and have 1250 J of kinetic energy, which is less than before. Let's say you were filling the ironmind instead for a mass of 25 kg. Your stormlight would last 2 s, after which you would be going at 20 m/s and have 5000 J of kinetic energy. In all three of these situations, your momentum is the same, 500 kg m/s. So, in a vacuum, in terms of Stormlight efficiency, you're better off storing weight if you want as much energy as possible. Another factor to consider is that outside of a vacuum, decreasing your mass also decreases your terminal velocity. Also, even in close quarters, you're better off using a double lashing than doubling your mass, since both will take double the Stormlight, but a double lashing means twice the end velocity, which is more important for kinetic energy (half of mass times velocity squared).

 

Edited January 27, 2020 by ChickenLiberty

[Feruchemical Skybreaker he/him]

Ok, thanks.

[Karger he/him]

8 hours ago, ChickenLiberty said:

Karger's confusing acceleration with velocity. Because of the law of conservation of momentum, you will slow down if you increase your mass while moving. If your mass doubles, your speed will half. However, in this situation involving Lashings, that would not come into play because you are not changing mass while moving. A Lashing defines an acceleration, not dependant on the mass off the object. The mass only influences the amount of Stormlight it takes. If you were to Lash yourself while tapping an ironmind, you would accelerate as normal, and you would have, as you suggested, a large amount of energy. Sadly, because of the need for stormlight as a fuel, this would still not work as you hope.

I suppose that it will just cost a lot more stormlight.

[GoWibble he/him]

But if you are powered by a shard... then you could move a car into space. I think. 

[Feruchemical Skybreaker he/him]

24 minutes ago, Karger said:

I suppose that it will just cost a lot more stormlight.

So you could do this given a giant amount of stormlight. Like a highstorm or just a ton of big gemstones. But tapping the iron-mind is not necessary. 

Edited January 27, 2020 by Feruchemical Skybreaker

[Karger he/him]

19 minutes ago, Feruchemical Skybreaker said:

So you could do this given a giant amount of stormlight. Like a highstorm or just a ton of big gemstones. But tapping the iron-mind is not necessary. 

You would need to compound and then lash so that you do not slow down but compounding might allow you to deliver more force.

[Gderu]

1 hour ago, Karger said:

You would need to compound and then lash so that you do not slow down but compounding might allow you to deliver more force.

No, but what he is saying is that it's better use to use your extra investiture for lashing rather than for increasing your mass. Because of the fact that in the formula for kinetic energy, velocity is squared while mass is not, it is better to increase your velocity rather than your mass, if you want to maximize kinetic energy. Of course, this is assuming that you can choose where to invest your investiture. If that is not an option then yes, changing your mass so that when lashing, you run out of stormlight exactly when you reach your target would help increase your velocity, and therefore also your kinetic energy.

[Karger he/him]

45 minutes ago, Gderu said:

this is assuming that you can choose where to invest your investiture. If that is not an option then yes, changing your mass so that when lashing, you run out of stormlight exactly when you reach your target would help increase your velocity, and therefore also your kinetic energy

Excellent analysis.  I would just also add that it you might get a bit of a problem with investiture interfering with other investiture.  I don't think this will be a concern but it is worthwhile to think about.  Also another concern is distance.  Compounding weight and lashing for a very short distance will allow you to deliver force much faster.

Edited January 27, 2020 by Karger

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, Karger said:

Reference? 

Wax does not know.

 

15 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

I don’t have my copies of Mistborn Era 2 on me, so I can’t find the passage in a timely manner. As in, it’ll be days until I can get my copies. Sorry 

Here is the scene for @ILuvHats

Shadows of Self Page 348

It was done with deftness, but Wax had an advantage. He decreased his weight, filling his metalmind. As always, though the change was sometimes subtle, this increased his velocity. If he decreased his weight while in motion, he got a little burst of speed. He didn't know why

[Quantus he/him]

So there are well documented reasons why the physics are against you when using F-Iron Tapping to get too much free speed or force, but far fewer limitations on the Lashing side, since that grants the ability to directly multiply the gravitational force as opposed to the Higgs-based weight manipulation of F-Iron.  Im not sure Im willing to make too many assumptions on the Investiture exchange rate between Feruchemy and Stormlight for efficiency calcs there are definitely some fun Combo maneuvers. As a basic attack idea, you can increase Weight via F-Iron proportionally with Gravity via multiple Lashings to get the same apparent velocity response with a devastatingly incongruous force in the final attack; You'd really want plate to survive throwing this punch, or else use Harmonium and Gem Fabrials to make a warhead.  

Another combination effect that is worth mentioning is that even without actual Twinborn Compounding, the combination should absolutely allow the Feruchemist to Store more weight per second than they otherwise could.  F-Iron has a fundamental limit on storing: You can only only store up to your actual weight.  But if you are storing while also under the effect of multiple Lashings, you should be able to store up to the maximum of you new Multiplied weight. Wax always walksa round at ~75% weight to keep a steady flow storing and make him more physically maneuverable, but with this combination he could do the same thing and be storing several times his weight.  This is essentially another Investiture Compounding Hack that uses Surges and Stormlight rather than Preservation's Allomancy.

[Karger he/him]

43 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

It was done with deftness, but Wax had an advantage. He decreased his weight, filling his metalmind. As always, though the change was sometimes subtle, this increased his velocity. If he decreased his weight while in motion, he got a little burst of speed. He didn't know why

Thank you.

[Feruchemical Skybreaker he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

So there are well documented reasons why the physics are against you when using F-Iron Tapping to get too much free speed or force, but far fewer limitations on the Lashing side, since that grants the ability to directly multiply the gravitational force as opposed to the Higgs-based weight manipulation of F-Iron.  Im not sure Im willing to make too many assumptions on the Investiture exchange rate between Feruchemy and Stormlight for efficiency calcs there are definitely some fun Combo maneuvers. As a basic attack idea, you can increase Weight via F-Iron proportionally with Gravity via multiple Lashings to get the same apparent velocity response with a devastatingly incongruous force in the final attack; You'd really want plate to survive throwing this punch, or else use Harmonium and Gem Fabrials to make a warhead.  

Another combination effect that is worth mentioning is that even without actual Twinborn Compounding, the combination should absolutely allow the Feruchemist to Store more weight per second than they otherwise could.  F-Iron has a fundamental limit on storing: You can only only store up to your actual weight.  But if you are storing while also under the effect of multiple Lashings, you should be able to store up to the maximum of you new Multiplied weight. Wax always walksa round at ~75% weight to keep a steady flow storing and make him more physically maneuverable, but with this combination he could do the same thing and be storing several times his weight.  This is essentially another Investiture Compounding Hack that uses Surges and Stormlight rather than Preservation's Allomancy.

Thanks, that makes a lot of sense.

 

4 hours ago, Gderu said:

No, but what he is saying is that it's better use to use your extra investiture for lashing rather than for increasing your mass. Because of the fact that in the formula for kinetic energy, velocity is squared while mass is not, it is better to increase your velocity rather than your mass, if you want to maximize kinetic energy. Of course, this is assuming that you can choose where to invest your investiture. If that is not an option then yes, changing your mass so that when lashing, you run out of stormlight exactly when you reach your target would help increase your velocity, and therefore also your kinetic energy.

So does this.

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Quantus said:

Another combination effect that is worth mentioning is that even without actual Twinborn Compounding, the combination should absolutely allow the Feruchemist to Store more weight per second than they otherwise could.  F-Iron has a fundamental limit on storing: You can only only store up to your actual weight.  But if you are storing while also under the effect of multiple Lashings, you should be able to store up to the maximum of you new Multiplied weight. Wax always walksa round at ~75% weight to keep a steady flow storing and make him more physically maneuverable, but with this combination he could do the same thing and be storing several times his weight.  This is essentially another Investiture Compounding Hack that uses Surges and Stormlight rather than Preservation's Allomancy.

I am not sure this would work.  Regardless of the number of lashings your mass is still the same.  We don't actually know weight that is what they store or not.  I always assumed it was mass because Wax's gun should still push him back a lot more and he should just fall over.

[+ILuvHats he/him]

2 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Here is the scene for @ILuvHats

Shadows of Self Page 348

It was done with deftness, but Wax had an advantage. He decreased his weight, filling his metalmind. As always, though the change was sometimes subtle, this increased his velocity. If he decreased his weight while in motion, he got a little burst of speed. He didn't know why

Thanks!

[Quantus he/him]

4 minutes ago, Karger said:

I am not sure this would work.  Regardless of the number of lashings your mass is still the same.  We don't actually know weight that is what they store or not.  I always assumed it was mass because Wax's gun should still push him back a lot more and he should just fall over.

"Weight" was an inaccurate term to use, apologies.  

Setting that aside, we do actually know it's Mass.  We have WOB that it's Mass and that it's based on Higgs Field manipulation, which is as close to literal Mass storage as they can do without opening too many practical issues like variable Bone Density. That's also how the math on all this conversation about Conservation of Momentum operates: in free-fall changing his mass alters his velocity by m1V1=m2V2.  

That being said, it could go either way on if Lashings affect or bypass the Higgs field, given that we dont know a whole lot about the inner workings of either, but they are definitely interconnected.  The Higgs field is (when dramatically over-simplified) what imparts mass and thus regulates gravitational force.   There is a very strong possibility that the Gravation Surge is going to get explained using the same mechanisms.  In other words, one reasonable explanation of how Lashings work could be that Lashings are manipulating the Vector Direction (and magnitude via multiple lashings) of the Higgs field, which would directly interact with F-Iron's same control mechanism ( a Double Lashing means Double teh Higgs Field, with Double the amount you could Store). On the flip side, the explanation could instead be entirely Realmic (Connections, etc) that bypass Conservation entirely the way Soulcasting can, at which point it's anyone's guess how they'd interact (and it would be more likely to vary by Skill and Cognitive perception).