NameIess Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 17 minutes ago, Quantus said: I tend to think that Jasnah would (grudgingly) accept Adonalsium (as we currently understand him) as a god. If she can accept the concept of Ascension to Godhood then she'd probably be ok with the Shardic Vessels as gods, but that would lead to finding the line between the bigger spren and gods (and the only answer I have is that they natively exist in all three Realms, unlike Spren). I doubt Jasah would accept Adonasium as a god because, very simply, Adonalsium was killed by mortals. One very basic theological point that exists in every religion I know of is that the God or gods can only be stopped by other gods, regular (or even exceptional) mortals can never fight them. Adonalsium was killed by mortals, so therefore he/she/it was not God.
Quantus he/him Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 17 minutes ago, Llstml said: I doubt Jasah would accept Adonasium as a god because, very simply, Adonalsium was killed by mortals. One very basic theological point that exists in every religion I know of is that the God or gods can only be stopped by other gods, regular (or even exceptional) mortals can never fight them. Adonalsium was killed by mortals, so therefore he/she/it was not God. That probably comes down to the same general Idea of whether she can accept mortal Ascension to Godhood. If so, then gods dont need to be defined as entirely Beyond Mortals Reach or Understanding, because it is a state of power that a Mortal can achieve. If she needs an entity that has always been beyond Mortal, a spren might qualify. Unless she also attaches credit for the Cosmere's Creation (as many religions do) which brings the list back to Adonalsium and arguably the Harmony shards. Though in the more general Mythology sense, I'd say that there are lots of examples of Mortals being able to kill gods, though they tend to come it two flavors (that Im personally aware of): those that steal the Power of the Gods and use it against them, and those that simply blur the mythological lines between the gods and mortals (kings/queens/pharaohs/heroes/etc, usually) is simply heavily blurred. That latter is really common in various versions of the greek and norse myths, though I assume it can be found elsewhere too. 1
Pathfinder Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Quantus said: That probably comes down to the same general Idea of whether she can accept mortal Ascension to Godhood. If so, then gods dont need to be defined as entirely Beyond Mortals Reach or Understanding, because it is a state of power that a Mortal can achieve. If she needs an entity that has always been beyond Mortal, a spren might qualify. Unless she also attaches credit for the Cosmere's Creation (as many religions do) which brings the list back to Adonalsium and arguably the Harmony shards. Though in the more general Mythology sense, I'd say that there are lots of examples of Mortals being able to kill gods, though they tend to come it two flavors (that Im personally aware of): those that steal the Power of the Gods and use it against them, and those that simply blur the mythological lines between the gods and mortals (kings/queens/pharaohs/heroes/etc, usually) is simply heavily blurred. That latter is really common in various versions of the greek and norse myths, though I assume it can be found elsewhere too. I guess, but we have a quote of her saying that she does not see spren as god, and the example she used (the stormfather), is bonded to dalinar now, and Jasnah does not view nor treat, nor call him as god. Further she herself is bonded to a spren and she does not view, treat, or call herself a god. And per Brandon Rosharans would view Adonalsium as a spren. So to Jasnah I do not think there would be a blurring. For her it would not be god. But to be clear I am not saying you cannot think of those entities as god. Just the quotes lead me to believe she would not. Edited January 10, 2020 by Pathfinder
Quantus he/him Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 1 minute ago, Pathfinder said: I guess, but we have a quote of her saying that she does not see spren as god, and the example she used (the stormfather), is bonded to dalinar now, and Jasnah does not view nor treat, nor call him as god. And per Brandon Rosharans would view Adonalsium as a spren. So to Jasnah I do not think there would be a blurring. For her it would not be god. But to be clear I am not saying you cannot think of those entities as god. Just the quotes lead me to believe she would not. You arent wrong, though to be fair she seems to defy the typical Rosharan beliefs more than match them. Personally, I tend to think that she wont be comfortable stating with absolute certainty that there is No god (logical fallacy to attempt to prove a negative, after all) but as she is now she will never be able to come up with a definition that actually satisfies her.
Pathfinder Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Quantus said: You arent wrong, though to be fair she seems to defy the typical Rosharan beliefs more than match them. Personally, I tend to think that she wont be comfortable stating with absolute certainty that there is No god (logical fallacy to attempt to prove a negative, after all) but as she is now she will never be able to come up with a definition that actually satisfies her. Sorry, to clarify, Jasnah said that in view of the Vorin definition of the Almighty (all powerful, one god), that it could potentially just as easily be a powerful spren that exists, like the nightwatcher or perhaps the stormfather. The WoB says that if the rosharans knew what the shards are, (defined by brandon as investiture that is alive), then they would term is spren, which Rosharans define as investiture that is alive. And that Brandon confirms that would stand for Adonalsium as well. So personally, for myself, I do not take it as Jasnah defying typical Rosharan beliefs. It would be Jasnah, supporting the scientific evidence she had already researched and applied in the very conversation she had with Shallan. Which would be the Almighty, Honor, Adonalsium could be just very powerful spren. She then finishes that quote stating she would not call that being god nor worship it. My intention was just to clarify that I do not personally believe that Jasnah would need to disagree with spren being defined as investiture that is alive because she defies Rosharan's beliefs. More, to me, spren defined as investiture that is alive would be generally accepted scientific and scholarly research. Edit:further when i keep saying "to me", i mean that to convey that was my reading of the quote. Not trying to sound like by saying to me, it is the only correct reading, or i read it any better than anyone else Edited January 10, 2020 by Pathfinder
Quantus he/him Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Sorry, to clarify, Jasnah said that in view of the Vorin definition of the Almighty (all powerful, one god), that it could potentially just as easily be a powerful spren that exists, like the nightwatcher or perhaps the stormfather. The WoB says that if the rosharans knew what the shards are, (defined by brandon as investiture that is alive), then they would term is spren, which Rosharans define as investiture that is alive. And that Brandon confirms that would stand for Adonalsium as well. This is probably what you meant, but just to clarify the WOB says that the rosharan belief would extend to Adonalsium, but it didnt actually confirm anything specific about his nature (and I believe there's a WOB that the Rosharans would call the Shardic Vessel's Spren but that they'd be wrong). 3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: So personally, for myself, I do not take it as Jasnah defying typical Rosharan beliefs. It would be Jasnah, supporting the scientific evidence she had already researched and applied in the very conversation she had with Shallan. Which would be the Almighty, Honor, Adonalsium could be just very powerful spren. She then finishes that quote stating she would not call that being god nor worship it. My intention was just to clarify that I do not personally believe that Jasnah would need to disagree with spren being defined as investiture hat is alive because she defies Rosharan's beliefs. More, to me, spren defined as investiture that is alive would be generally accepted scientific and scholarly research. Ah, ok I gotcha. I just meant that a WOB that Rosharans would view Adonalsium as a spren may or may not extend to Jasnah in particular simply because she is so very willing to disregard popular belief if she deems it proper. I think she would entirely agree with the definition of Spren as sentient Investiture, thought to my mind that's a separate definition and topic entirely than the one about what qualifies as a God. In that instance we know with Objective certainty that the Vessels (the originals at least) where all qualitatively More than just big spren, as they are Inflated natives of all three Realms, rather than just the two that Spren are native to. That last bit is interesting to me: she separates Being a god and Being worthy of Worship. This makes me think that her current Catch-22 is that the Being would have to both be some kind of Infinitely Powerful (1/16th might count) and also worthy of her absolute respect. There simply arent any beings that qualify for both at present. perhaps (given the right set of circumstances) she would knowledge a god if the being had both, like say a father figure she wildly Respects who then Ascends to Shard-hood. In other words, Jasnah may likely be a Unitarian or nothing...
Pathfinder Posted January 10, 2020 Posted January 10, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, Quantus said: This is probably what you meant, but just to clarify the WOB says that the rosharan belief would extend to Adonalsium, but it didnt actually confirm anything specific about his nature (and I believe there's a WOB that the Rosharans would call the Shardic Vessel's Spren but that they'd be wrong). Ah, ok I gotcha. I just meant that a WOB that Rosharans would view Adonalsium as a spren may or may not extend to Jasnah in particular simply because she is so very willing to disregard popular belief if she deems it proper. I think she would entirely agree with the definition of Spren as sentient Investiture, thought to my mind that's a separate definition and topic entirely than the one about what qualifies as a God. In that instance we know with Objective certainty that the Vessels (the originals at least) where all qualitatively More than just big spren, as they are Inflated natives of all three Realms, rather than just the two that Spren are native to. So just doing this so I can confirm we are on the same page (discussing the same thing). I am referring to this portion specifically, that I posted earlier in this thread: Brandon Sanderson The Nightwatcher-- I mean, they call the Nightwatcher a spren. Everyone in the books thinks the Nightwatcher is a spren. That's what they would call-- that's what they would call, if they knew what Honor was, they would call Honor a spren. A spren is Investiture that is alive. Bystander Nightblood? Brandon Sanderson So they would call Nightblood a spren. They would call-- That's the word for what all of these things are. They would probably've called Adonalsium a spren… So I took what Brandon said as: (I am numbering it just to show the progression of my thoughts. How one led to another) 1. Rosharans call the nightwatcher a spren 2. if Rosharans knew what honor was a. this states to me that at this time Rosharans at large do not know what honor was as per defined by Brandon, because he is saying what Honor was b. if the Rosharans do in fact know what Honor was then: 3. Rosharans would call honor (the shard) a spren 4. The definition of spren is: investiture that is alive 5. Rosharans would probably have called Adonalsium a spren. In the quote I am referring to from Jasnah, that I quoted earlier in this thread, she said: Words of Radiance page 69 The Stormfather, of course, is a strange offshoot of this, his theoretical nature changing depending on which era of Vorinism is doing the talking. . . .” She trailed off. Shallan blushed, realizing she’d looked away and had begun tracing a glyphward on her blanket against the evil in Jasnah’s words. “That was a tangent,” Jasnah said. “I apologize.” “You’re so sure he isn’t real,” Shallan said. “The Almighty.” “I have no more proof of him than I do of the Thaylen Passions, Nu Ralik of the Purelake, or any other religion.” “And the Heralds? You don’t think they existed?” “I don’t know,” Jasnah said. “There are many things in this world that I don’t understand. For example, there is some slight proof that both the Stormfather and the Almighty are real creatures—simply powerful spren, such as the Nightwatcher.” “Then he would be real.” “I never claimed he was not,” Jasnah said. “I merely claimed that I do not accept him as God, nor do I feel any inclination to worship him. So again, only numbering to show the progression of my thoughts 1. Jasnah says (to me) that she has no more proof (no additional evidence) that would lend to the Almighty existing more than any other religion on Roshar 2. This is not Jasnah stating the Almighty or any other religion does not exist. Just she does not have any convincing evidence that would rule one over any other 3. Jasnah states she does not know if the heralds existed or not. That there is some proof that the Stormfather and the Almighty (as the Vorins understand it to be) could just be powerful spren 4. Shallan then states then he would be real. i take this to mean that Shallan is saying "If the Almighty was proven to be a powerful spren, that would prove the Almighty real" 5. Jasnah responds that she never claimed the Almighty was not real. Just that she does not accept him as God nor does she feel any inclination to worship 6. So the Almighty can exist, be a powerful spren, be real, and the Almighty would not be accepted as God by Jasnah and would not be worshiped. Further taking both the WoB and the quote from Jasnah, the progression of my thoughts are 1. Spren on Roshar are defined as living investiture 2. shards are defined by the author as living investiture 3. Jasnah is Rosharan (and I do have a quote of Jasnah discussing spren that I will add below to confirm this) and defines spren as living investiture 4. Jasnah says spren exist. Spren have varying power levels. 5. Jasnah does not refer to spren as god and will not worship it. The numbering is not meant to belittle, or imply you do not understand what I am saying. It is just an effort on my part to show how I organized my thoughts. (here is the quote regarding Jasnah and her thoughts on spren: “They’re living ideas.” Jasnah spun on her. “What?” Shallan said, jumping. “Am I wrong?” “No,” Jasnah said. “You’re right.” The woman narrowed her eyes. “By my best guess, spren are elements of the Cognitive Realm that have leaked into the physical world. They’re concepts that have gained a fragment of sentience, perhaps because of human intervention. “Think of a man who gets angry often. Think of how his friends and family might start referring to that anger as a beast, as a thing that possesses him, as something external to him. Humans personify. We speak of the wind as if it has a will of its own. “Spren are those ideas—the ideas of collective human experience—somehow come alive. Shadesmar is where that first happens, and it is their place. Though we created it, they shaped it. They live there; they rule there, within their own cities.” “Cities?” “Yes,” Jasnah said, looking back out over the ocean. She seemed troubled. “Spren are wild in their variety. Some are as clever as humans and create cities. Others are like fish and simply swim in the currents.” Spren are living ideas/concepts that have gained a fragment of sentience, perhaps because of human intervention. These ideas/concepts come alive. They can be as clever as humans, or like fish. That to me lines up with a shard. Shards are living ideas/concepts, that have gained a fragment of sentience perhaps because of human intervention. edit: something further from re-reading your post. From my understanding of spren, like Syl and such, they are just splinters of a shard. Syl says she herself is god, or a piece of god, and that that is the same thing. She is both a piece of the whole and the whole at the same time. From what I understand of spren, they are not limited to only the physical and the cognitive realms. Functionally, from what I understand, there is no difference between a spren such as Syl, and a shard such as Honor except scope Also as an aside, Syl saying she is god, or part of god, was in view of Kaladin, and also Rock, who in Kaladin's case acknowledge an existence of god but just god is unknowable, and Rock that views all spren as god/s. From what I read Jasnah saying, she does not view spren as god/s. Actually back to the OP's original statement. Upon finding out The Almighty is dead, but the entity very much existed, what does she profess? This was enumerated in the meeting with Kaladin, Shallan, Jasnah, Navani, and Renarin. Kaladin stated the Almighty is dead. This was at the beginning of Oathbringer. Later on Jasnah has the confrontation with Amaram, and Jasnah professes she has no beliefs. Amaram still calls her a heretic. So personally, from what I read of the order, we saw what would happen with Jasnah. It occurred in Oathbringer. Nothing (to me) happened at the end of the novel to change that. There wasn't any bit of new information. Tanavast being dead was told to Jasnah at the beginning of Oathbringer, and she said she was an atheist all the way through. Edited January 10, 2020 by Pathfinder
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