The Physiology of Holding Stormlight

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

A quick nod to Moogle for getting me to start thinking on this to come up with what I believe is a good base understanding for how stormlight works throughout the body.  It is going to be a bit medically intensive, but I want to get this hashed out on  paper the forums before I forget stop caring. 

 

So, here's a list of what we know about Stormlight:

• Stormlight is breathed in.
• Stormlight replaces the need to breathe/intake oxygen.
• Stormlight decreases faster if you breathe regularly/talk.
• Stormlight acts as a healing agent/stimuli.
• Stormlight feels like a highstorm raging inside.
• Stormlight enhances normal human abilites from strength to reflexes.
• Stormlight leaves you feeling drained.
• Stormlight can create a shock like state in the surgebinder. 
• Stormlight can be dangerous to hold too much of.
• Stormlight can be addictive (it seems to be mostly psychological, but the symptoms of stormlight shock could also be a manifestation of some sort of withdrawl theoretically.l
• Stormlight gives a sense of euphoria. (Possible causes-added effects extra oxygenation, stormlight mimicking the effects of neurotransmitters suchs as dopamine or seratonin. Could also be part of the addiciton process, especially if its only a mental addiction and not physical.)

 

I'll edit the list as I remember more things, along with things you guys found that I missed correct me on.

 

We'll start at breathing it in. The stormlight travels through the upper airways and into the lungs. There's too much stormlight to be immediately absorbed, so there's approximately 500ml of airspace filled with X amount of stormlight, centered in the lungs. (This explains why sometimes the books describe it as a highstorm in the chest.) This stormlight is immediately available to be carried by the red blood cells flowing through the pulmonary artery through the heart and to the rest of the body. Inhalation is one of the fastest methods of entering the body. Even intravenous has to flow from the body to the heart, then to the lungs, then back to the heart, before being sent to the rest of the body (which is already a quick process.) 

 

So anyways, he stormlight hits the alveoli and diffuses across into the red blood cells, where its carried to the rest of the body. Now, Stormlight can be held for quite some time, so it has to be something of a metabolic superagent, if you will. It creates a perfect environment and fuel to be used by cells in the body. This seems as stark a contrast when looking at anaerobic to aerobic environments, as when comparing an aerobic environment to a stormlight environment. No waste is created and needs to be expelled, and there's actually extra energy being made, allowing the cells to 'overclock' themselves, especially combining in the healing factor, the muscles and tissues can work themselves to the point of being damaged, and be instantly healed. 

 

Eventually, all the stormlight in the blood is depostied, and the blood returns to the heart from the veins with no waste products to exhange in the lungs. But there's a great need for the body to get as much stormlight from the lungs into the body as possible. This is because of the rule that generally speaking, substances tend to go from areas of high concentration, to areas of low concentration. With this being said, and the remarkable nature of the abilities given by stormlight, I think it is able to bond to hemoglobin much more effectively than oxygen. This can be explained by compression of stormlight. 

 

The stormilght from spheres seem to far exceed the size. This is because stormlight is in an incredibly dense, pressurized container-the sphere. Because of the amount of pressure, the same amount of stormlight is compressed into the much smaller space. When it's inhaled, it decompresses a little bit, to fill the lungs, and then decompresses even more to fill the blood. In response to this, the body dilates the blood vessels, doubling or tripling the amount of space available in cardiovascular system, which the stormlight proceeds to fill. 

 

Pouring stormlight out into something, is finally allowing it to decompress fully, which is what causes the frost effect, similar to gas tanks getting cold after they are used. (Another nod to Moogle.) (It seems I was very wrong on that part.) So after the stormlight is exhausted, the person usually feels drained, and depending on how quickly they used the stormlight, they get symptoms of shock. This is because using up the stormlight that quickly doesn't give the body enough time to respond and constrict the blood vessels. As soon as that extra stormlight is gone, you've got the same amount of blood in three times the amount of space, causing what's called distributive shock, or, in this case, Stormlight Shock. 

 

As for the dangers of holding too much stormlight, that goes back to the pressurization. It's a lot like inflating a balloon with a bottle of compressed helium. It can expand too quickly and pop the container. If you allow so much stormlight into your body, you basically are allowing it to expand past the capabilities that your body can withstand. Eventually, you could theoretically hold enough stormlight to cause lung damage, burst blood vessels, etc. The kind of system wide damage which could easily eat up a ton of stormlight fixing in order to keep yourself alive. (This is similar in nature to the 'bends' where a diver goes deep into the ocean, where there's more pressure. The nitrogen compresses, and bonds more readily to the blood cells. Then if they surface too fast, the nitrogen expands quickly and causes nitrogen bubbles in the blood stream.)

 

That was a mouthful fingerful.

Edit 2017: Supporting book passages

Stormlight in the blood

Quote

Kaladin thought. He pushed harder, and felt a sudden surge of strength. His legs stopped straining, his breath stopped wheezing. Perhaps it was the anxiety of battle, perhaps it was numbness setting in, but the unexpected strength gave him a slight sense of euphoria. He felt as if something were buzzing within him, mixing with his blood.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 492). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Szeth could feel the Light’s warmth, its fury, like a tempest that had been injected directly into his veins.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 24). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

The Light began to rage within him, like a highstorm in his chest, burning and screaming.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 717). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

1

Stormlight in the lungs:

Quote

Holding his breath, he clung to the Stormlight. He could still feel it leaking out.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 24). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

“What am I?” Szeth whispered, a bit of Light leaking from his lips as he looked past the man down the long hallway. “I’m … sorry.”

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 24). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

“You are a fool,” Szeth said, Stormlight leaking from his mouth.

Sanderson, Brandon. The Way of Kings (The Stormlight Archive, Book 1) (p. 717). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

The assassin cursed, letting out another mouthful of Light, and backed away, his Shin eyes— slightly too large, colored like pale sapphires— widening at the continued flurry of strikes.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 375). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

The assassin stopped in the corridor just in front of Dalinar. “But I’m not here for him, Highprince,” he whispered, Stormlight puffing from his lips. “I’m here for you.” The assassin lunged forward, slapping away Dalinar’s strike, and kicked the Blackthorn in the leg.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 376). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

Kaladin stepped forward as threateningly as he could manage, hoping his Stormlight would last long enough to be imposing. He breathed out, letting it puff before him, faintly luminescent in the darkness.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 379). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

“Storms,” Kaladin said, then breathed out the last of his Light and collapsed in a heap.

Sanderson, Brandon. Words of Radiance (Stormlight Archive, The) (p. 379). Tom Doherty Associates. Kindle Edition. 

 

 

 

Moogle's post: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8775-magic-fuel/#entry140899

Edited October 30, 2017 by Fifth of Daybreak

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

Beautiful. It's great to hear from people who really know what they're talking about.

Just one thing though. I don't think the cells 'overclocking' is what's causing the healing factor. After all, they can heal shardblade wounds, something no bodily function, no matter how powered up it is, can replicate. The healing factor is entirely separated from any physiological mechanisms. It's a completely magical, Cognitive 'healing', a la Feruchemical gold, where it's essentially reconstituting, recreating and reforming the body, instead of healing like a natural body would.

The other physical boosts definitely come from 'overclocking' though.

Edit: Also

in Mistborn, when Vin takes in the mists, she has a similar sort of experience where she feels like she's getting ripped apart iirc. I originally took it as some sort of weird magical phenomenon where Investiture naturally rips apart whatever holds it, but could this just be another example of everyday pressure like the Stormlight?

Edited May 24, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Cstryon he/him]

We need to get a BP on a surgebinder before inhaling, while holding, and after the storm light leaves.

So basically what you're saying is the exhaustion is pretty much hypotension, because the blood vessels haven't had a chance to contract? I like it!

Could there be a lack of oxygen as well? I know you don't need to breathe when you're holding storm light. But your body wouldn't stop using the oxygen already in your blood would it? Hold storm light long enough, any oxygen left would be gone. Once you run out, not only are your blood vessels dilated, but you've also got no oxygen.

Lie back, elevate the legs, 15 liters O2!

I think my medic tending is still good!

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Beautiful. It's great to hear from people who really know what they're talking about.

Just one thing though. I don't think the cells 'overclocking' is what's causing the healing factor. After all, they can heal shardblade wounds, something no bodily function, no matter how powered up it is, can replicate. The healing factor is entirely separated from any physiological mechanisms. It's a completely magical, Cognitive 'healing', a la Feruchemical gold, where it's essentially reconstituting, recreating and reforming the body, instead of healing like a natural body would.

The other physical boosts definitely come from 'overclocking' though.

Edit: Also

in Mistborn, when Vin takes in the mists, she has a similar sort of experience where she feels like she's getting ripped apart iirc. I originally took it as some sort of weird magical phenomenon where Investiture naturally rips apart whatever holds it, but could this just be another example of everyday pressure like the Stormlight?

 

 

Let me clarify, I wasn't trying to suggest that the overclocking is causing the healing factor, but rather, the healing factor allows that to happen. For instance, there are known instances where bodybuilders have pushed their bodies beyond the limits of what's physically possible. They've achieved enough muscle mass, that they pick up so much weight it breaks their bones. The healing factor is preventing that from happening. The cells and muscles are allowed to work beyond their normal physical capacity, to the point of injuring themselves, but show no damage from it because it's already been healed. 

 

As to the spoiler, I think that's a very reasonable assumption. Magic could work as a pressure system universally. Especially considering the difference between that use of investiture, and the normal use on Scadrial

 

We need to get a BP on a surgebinder before inhaling, while holding, and after the storm light leaves.

So basically what you're saying is the exhaustion is pretty much hypotension, because the blood vessels haven't had a chance to contract? I like it!

Could there be a lack of oxygen as well? I know you don't need to breathe when you're holding storm light. But your body wouldn't stop using the oxygen already in your blood would it? Hold storm light long enough, any oxygen left would be gone. Once you run out, not only are your blood vessels dilated, but you've also got no oxygen.

Lie back, elevate the legs, 15 liters O2!

I think my medic tending is still good!

I would love to have that information!

 

I think that the amount of oxygen would stay fairly the same, unless I'm wrong about the assumption that there's no waste from metabolizing stormlight. That would make the real problem not lack of oxygen, as the time between exhaling and inhaling is minimal, but rather the toxic washout from the built up CO2. We're going to need End Tidal CO2 measurements as well! 

[PorridgeBrick he/him]

The "pressure system" for Investiture makes a lot of sense. We know that on Sel, there's a lot of pressure for the Dor to get out, and the symbols act as openings for that pressure to escape. We also know that Sel's Shadesmar is pretty dangerous, likely because of the high pressure. And in the case of Roshar, we know that it does not have the same problems as Sel because the spren are able to act as "outlets"– the pressure can't build up, because some of it gets bonded to the spren instead. The pressure is a pretty plausible mechanic for highstorms, too, with a pressure wave in the Cognitive/Spiritual forcing along the storm and infusing gems with Investiture to let some of it out. And there was some talk in another thread about metals acting as a low-pressure area so that Preservation's power (likely again under pressure) will flow out.

Edited May 24, 2014 by PorridgeBrick

[Chrono she/her]

That was eloquent! I like your explanation for the frost, and this all seems very scientific. Stormlight Shock seems like murder to go through, though, what with your body being over-exerted by that. Perhaps another reason for the shock could be that the Stormlight runs out before it's done healing the over-exerted muscles, leaving some internal damage. (Note: I'm the furthest thing away from a doctor, so that's probably wrong)

[Tempus]

A few comments.

 

First off, easiest thing. PorridgeBrick, the Pressure is noted on Roshar, by Eshonai, who notices quite a lot of it indeed.

 

Secondly, frost and internal compression on a physical level. Nope. Not gonna work. First off, rapid depressurization of liquid would cause a pressure shock in your blood stream and cells, similar to a hydraulic piston. Instant heart stoppage, and probably significant damage to vessels and cell structure. Secondly, if cold were generated, it would affect the container primarily - anything cold enough to generate frost outside of the container would literally flash freeze the container.

 

Thirdly, I number crunched - a 7 litre container of liquid rapidly depressurized over 20 ms sees a temperature decrease of 61°C within the liquid. The blood contained in a human body is approximately 4.7 to 5 litres, so the changes should be slightly smaller. Regardless, 60°C change in temperature is not enough to instantly turn the moisture in the air to frost. Notably, Dry Ice subsumes at temperatures of -78°C or so, and while it does cause the air in its general vicinity to rapidly condense, it hardly instafrosts. A 60° change would put the direct temperature of human blood at only -23° Celsius or so, not even close to the thing that is not even close. You'd need something more like Liquid Nitrogen, at -200°C or so, several times colder than you could expect to generate. Even then, it would have to be much, much colder to exhibit the sort of radius Kaladin exhibits with his frost circle, as even Liquid Nitrogen only affects things in very close proximity. And it still takes a couple seconds to freeze a banana completely through, even when immersed.

 

But if it makes you feel better, your blood would freeze reasonably quickly.

[RShara she/her]

It's also addictive.  Just wanted to throw that in before reading all the amazing replies

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

A few comments.

 

First off, easiest thing. PorridgeBrick, the Pressure is noted on Roshar, by Eshonai, who notices quite a lot of it indeed.

 

Secondly, frost and internal compression on a physical level. Nope. Not gonna work. First off, rapid depressurization of liquid would cause a pressure shock in your blood stream and cells, similar to a hydraulic piston. Instant heart stoppage, and probably significant damage to vessels and cell structure. Secondly, if cold were generated, it would affect the container primarily - anything cold enough to generate frost outside of the container would literally flash freeze the container.

 

Thirdly, I number crunched - a 7 litre container of liquid rapidly depressurized over 20 ms sees a temperature decrease of 61°C within the liquid. The blood contained in a human body is approximately 4.7 to 5 litres, so the changes should be slightly smaller. Regardless, 60°C change in temperature is not enough to instantly turn the moisture in the air to frost. Notably, Dry Ice subsumes at temperatures of -78°C or so, and while it does cause the air in its general vicinity to rapidly condense, it hardly instafrosts. A 60° change would put the direct temperature of human blood at only -23° Celsius or so, not even close to the thing that is not even close. You'd need something more like Liquid Nitrogen, at -200°C or so, several times colder than you could expect to generate. Even then, it would have to be much, much colder to exhibit the sort of radius Kaladin exhibits with his frost circle, as even Liquid Nitrogen only affects things in very close proximity. And it still takes a couple seconds to freeze a banana completely through, even when immersed.

 

But if it makes you feel better, your blood would freeze reasonably quickly.

 

First off, I don't believe I understand the study as thoroughly as I would like to, so you'll have to bear with any false assumptions that I have.

 

You bring up a lot of fair points, but some of them I have contention with, the first of which the basic comparison to rapid depressurization of a liquid.  Stormlight seems to be the gaseous from of investiture, much in the same way that the mists were on Scadrial, while the shardpools are the liquid form. If it was in a liquid form, I doubt that surgebinders would still breathe it in as the way of accessing the magic. Experiments have been done with highly oxygenated liquids to try and attempt 'liquid breathing.' The idea behind it was that any oxygen rich liquid could be used as a substitute for regular breathing, which could have a variety of applications. What they found wasn't a physiological problem, but a psychological one (I don't have a particular source for this, just remembering the discussion from medic class.) During tests on mice, the problem wasn't lack of oxygen reaching the cells, but the stress of having liquid in your lungs. I'd assume that there'd be a similar sort of psychological block that would cause great distress in a surgebinder if the investiture was liquid sitting in the lungs. 

 

This being said, I'm not sure how that changes the temperature transfer from the rapid expansion of the gas. But along with this, its hard to make assumptions about exactly how much the temperature would change because we're missing key bits of information, such as how much temperature change the stormlight goes through as it expands. We do know however, that it takes less energy to change the temperature of air than it does to change the temperature of water or blood.  Looking at that study, I also noticed that it was focused on depressurization from a single point in a pressurized container. Again, I'm not sure how this would change the effects, but is some instances, the surgebinder is releasing stormlight from all points of his/her body simultaneously.  (I'd need specific references to the scenes in which frost occurs to further comment on how this affects each particular occurrence.)

 

As for the blood freezing before any outside temperature change could occur, you're ruling out one very important fact-humans generate heat, a lot of it. The average human at rest can maintain a stable body temperature while completely nude at a 25°C, more if they are active. This is definitely one byproduct that the stormlight can't stop from occurring during energy creation in the cells. Being that Stormlight is a super metabolic fuel that is causing the tissues to work beyond the normal capacity, there is going to be massive amounts of heat being generated inside of a surgebinders body, most likely more heat than the body could withstand normally, and the body already can produce huge amounts of heat on its own. With this being said, I'm almost more convinced that this is how stormlight has to work in order to maintain homeostasis. Most reactors need some sort of cooling system, and while the vasodilation would create avenues for the heat to escape naturally, it wouldn't be enough to compensate. Having the stormlight work as a coolant system wide can explain why we don't have surgebinder popsicles every time they surgebind, while still allowing for my explanation of frost as a byproduct stormlight expansion.

 

One thing that would definitely be of use to this conversation is whether or not the frost is universal across all 'stormlight containers.' For instance, if we could find out what the temperature is of something that Kaladin infused with Stormlight before, during, and immediately after its been infused, we could make a more definitive hypothesis. 

 

Edited May 24, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Galladon he/him]

My problem with the Stormlight by blood idea is, that

 

significant cut in book 2

 

This means that the blood would have had to be pumped through atleast once completely (about 1 min at 70bpm), besides that the stormlight is not absorbed at once.

Lets say you can saturate your blood 3 times with a good deep breath of stormlight.

At a heartrate of 210bpm it would have taken Kal a whole minute to heal and this isn't taking into account possible diffusion processes and looks at it as a linear system instead of exponetial decline (as has been stated in one of the books).

 

edit : sorry but spoiler doesnt work, dont know why. 

[spoiler]()[/spoiler]

Edited May 24, 2014 by Galladon

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

My problem with the Stormlight by blood idea is, that

 

significant cut in book 2

 

This means that the blood would have had to be pumped through atleast once completely (about 1 min at 70bpm), besides that the stormlight is not absorbed at once.

Lets say you can saturate your blood 3 times with a good deep breath of stormlight.

At a heartrate of 210bpm it would have taken Kal a whole minute to heal and this isn't taking into account possible diffusion processes and looks at it as a linear system instead of exponetial decline (as has been stated in one of the books).

 

edit : sorry but spoiler doesnt work, dont know why. 

[spoiler]()[/spoiler]

 

The blood takes one minute to fully circulate throughout the whole body when at rest. With this being said, a normal drug (oxygen) being administered through inhalation takes approximately 30 seconds to go through the entire arterial system and diffuse through the arterioles, into the capillaries, into the venules, and then start its trip back to the heart. When not at rest, the heart rate can easily be double that, so we're looking at about 15 seconds from inhalation to action time. But with what I'm suggesting, the body become way more adept at moving blood. 

 

As soon as the stormlight hits the lungs and the blood stream it causes massive dilation of the blood vessels with no drop in blood pressure, and the stormlight expands to fill the space. Considering the effect stormlight has on reflexes, I'd have to assume it has a sympathomimetic effect, meaning it mimics the effect of the sympathetic nervous system, having a positive chronotrohpic effect on the heart (it increases the rate and force of contractions of the heart.) After the lungs, the heart is the first thing that the stormlight hits, immediately increasing cardiac output. Cardiac output measured as a function of stroke volume times heart rate, and both are increased. 

 

So the stormight hits the heart, already having increased the amount of blood being pumped, now increasing the heart rate and force by which the blood is being pumped. This further decreased the time it takes from inhalation to action, as instead of halving the time by only increasing the heart rate, we've also increased the stroke volume. 

 

I'm also not arguing that the exponential decline doesn't happen, but I'm not entirely sure what it is you're referencing in my post that doesn't account for it.

Edited May 24, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Tempus]

First off, I don't believe I understand the study as thoroughly as I would like to, so you'll have to bear with any false assumptions that I have.

 

You bring up a lot of fair points, but some of them I have contention with, the first of which the basic comparison to rapid depressurization of a liquid.  Stormlight seems to be the gaseous from of investiture, much in the same way that the mists were on Scadrial, while the shardpools are the liquid form. If it was in a liquid form, I doubt that surgebinders would still breathe it in as the way of accessing the magic. Experiments have been done with highly oxygenated liquids to try and attempt 'liquid breathing.' The idea behind it was that any oxygen rich liquid could be used as a substitute for regular breathing, which could have a variety of applications. What they found wasn't a physiological problem, but a psychological one (I don't have a particular source for this, just remembering the discussion from medic class.) During tests on mice, the problem wasn't lack of oxygen reaching the cells, but the stress of having liquid in your lungs. I'd assume that there'd be a similar sort of psychological block that would cause great distress in a surgebinder if the investiture was liquid sitting in the lungs. 

 

The experiment pressures the liquid in the canister by adding CO2 gas, which is inert. That's our parallel, best I could find without a bucket of blood and a magical Stormlight pump.

 

 

 

This being said, I'm not sure how that changes the temperature transfer from the rapid expansion of the gas. But along with this, its hard to make assumptions about exactly how much the temperature would change because we're missing key bits of information, such as how much temperature change the stormlight goes through as it expands. We do know however, that it takes less energy to change the temperature of air than it does to change the temperature of water or blood.  Looking at that study, I also noticed that it was focused on depressurization from a single point in a pressurized container. Again, I'm not sure how this would change the effects, but is some instances, the surgebinder is releasing stormlight from all points of his/her body simultaneously.  (I'd need specific references to the scenes in which frost occurs to further comment on how this affects each particular occurrence.)

 

We're not even sure Stormlight pressurizes. It seems rather unlikely that just breathing it in could produce the amount of pressure you're speaking of - rapid expansion doesn't occur with just a little pressure, you need significant pressure.

 

That said, you're mistaking the phenomenon. It's not the gas that is released that loses temperature - it's the gas under pressure that no longer is. Simple example: Helium canister. Get a helium balloon, put it on the canister, blow it up. The balloon is warm, the canister (which is where the depressurization went down) is now cold to the touch.

 

 

As for the blood freezing before any outside temperature change could occur, you're ruling out one very important fact-humans generate heat, a lot of it. The average human at rest can maintain a stable body temperature while completely nude at a 25°C, more if they are active. This is definitely one byproduct that the stormlight can't stop from occurring during energy creation in the cells. Being that Stormlight is a super metabolic fuel that is causing the tissues to work beyond the normal capacity, there is going to be massive amounts of heat being generated inside of a surgebinders body, most likely more heat than the body could withstand normally, and the body already can produce huge amounts of heat on its own. With this being said, I'm almost more convinced that this is how stormlight has to work in order to maintain homeostasis. Most reactors need some sort of cooling system, and while the vasodilation would create avenues for the heat to escape naturally, it wouldn't be enough to compensate. Having the stormlight work as a coolant system wide can explain why we don't have surgebinder popsicles every time they surgebind, while still allowing for my explanation of frost as a byproduct stormlight expansion.

 

One thing that would definitely be of use to this conversation is whether or not the frost is universal across all 'stormlight containers.' For instance, if we could find out what the temperature is of something that Kaladin infused with Stormlight before, during, and immediately after its been infused, we could make a more definitive hypothesis. 

 

I actually took into account an internal human body temperature of 37.5° C. Rapid decompression of the nature you describe should drop the temperature of the blood vessels to approximately -24°C, nearly instantly. After that, the energy would have to travel through the flesh (thermal energy doesn't transfer that well, btw), and then through the air (which circulates and dissipates heat and cold quite rapidly through sheer volume) and then somehow make that giant mass of air cold enough to cause the moisture to not only condense (like your breath in -30°C weather) but immediately frost (I live in one of the coldest cities in Canada, and have never seen this happen even at -80° Windchills - also, look back up there for my points on the MUCH colder Liquid Nitrogen, which also isn't cold enough to produce those effects).

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

 

The experiment pressures the liquid in the canister by adding CO2 gas, which is inert. That's our parallel, best I could find without a bucket of blood and a magical Stormlight pump.

 

 

 

 

We're not even sure Stormlight pressurizes. It seems rather unlikely that just breathing it in could produce the amount of pressure you're speaking of - rapid expansion doesn't occur with just a little pressure, you need significant pressure.

 

That said, you're mistaking the phenomenon. It's not the gas that is released that loses temperature - it's the gas under pressure that no longer is. Simple example: Helium canister. Get a helium balloon, put it on the canister, blow it up. The balloon is warm, the canister (which is where the depressurization went down) is now cold to the touch.

 

 

 

I actually took into account an internal human body temperature of 37.5° C. Rapid decompression of the nature you describe should drop the temperature of the blood vessels to approximately -24°C, nearly instantly. After that, the energy would have to travel through the flesh (thermal energy doesn't transfer that well, btw), and then through the air (which circulates and dissipates heat and cold quite rapidly through sheer volume) and then somehow make that giant mass of air cold enough to cause the moisture to not only condense (like your breath in -30°C weather) but immediately frost (I live in one of the coldest cities in Canada, and have never seen this happen even at -80° Windchills - also, look back up there for my points on the MUCH colder Liquid Nitrogen, which also isn't cold enough to produce those effects).

 

 

It sounds like you've beaten that part of my theory quite soundly, and I can only offer hand waving to further defend my position. Well done! Thanks for correcting me.

 

Edit: For the sake of the rest of the theory, I do want to clarify one thing.

 

Stormlight was already in a pressurized state inside of the spheres, the depressurizing would come transition from the sphere to the lungs, lungs to the blood, blood to the outside world. I wasn't suggesting that the stormlight become more pressurized because it is breathed in. I do think it's a safe assumption that the stormlight in a sphere is a 'condensed' stormlight, as the larger gemstones in spheres seem to hold larger amounts of stormlight in relation to the smaller spheres that is incongruous with the size difference. Also, the cut gemstones could be more effective becuase their shape can more effectively hold the pressurized stormlight. 

Edited May 24, 2014 by EMTrevor

[Tempus]

Yeah. Rapid decompression has been mentioned before in various contexts, and it just isn't all that plausible. There has to be some other reason for the frost. It could be due to the fuel thing Moogle and I were talking about in the other thread, or it could be related to the balancing mechanics in place for Investiture within a thermodynamic system, causing a massive heat transfer from the surrounding area as energy.

 

The rest of your things are pretty interesting and I see no immediate issues, including the general pressurization of blood vessels. Even a small amount of pressure would vastly increase blood flow, and we know Investiture is described twice as having pressure (Once by Raoden, once by Eshonai - both after the Investiture they were using hadn't been used in a long time). Also, it's likely the porous nature of the body would prevent extreme pressures from 'popping' a person, as suggested.

[Aleksiel]

Nice! I didn't read all the comments, so sorry if it has been mentioned: on one of the first times that Kaladin inhaled stormlight as a bridgeman, he felt 'a sudden sense of euphoria', which possibly ties with it being more potent than oxygen (iirc more oxygen can make someone feel euphoric) and is probably part of what makes it addictive.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

 

The rest of your things are pretty interesting and I see no immediate issues, including the general pressurization of blood vessels. Even a small amount of pressure would vastly increase blood flow, and we know Investiture is described twice as having pressure (Once by Raoden, once by Eshonai - both after the Investiture they were using hadn't been used in a long time). Also, it's likely the porous nature of the body would prevent extreme pressures from 'popping' a person, as suggested.

 

I think that just depends on which part of the body the stormlight is in. If it is in the lungs the pressure is building too quickly, then it would have a hard time leaving the body without breathing it out, and could cause barotrauma relatively quickly.

[Aleksiel]

While healing after being strung during the highstorm, Kaladin described experiencing:

 

sudden shocks of strength - icy cold, but refreshing

 

 

 Most likely the times when he inhaled stormlight from the spheres Teft provided. However, I'm not sure how and why it would feel cold to him. Sure, stormlight doesn't provide heat, but it's either the only time such an affect is described or I notice it just now. (I'm rereading WoK in case you're wondering)

[Cstryon he/him]

Perhaps, stormlight being magical and all, it's not causing an increase in pressure (physically) anywhere. But it being such a stimulus, and all its other physical affects, is what causes the vessels to dilate, increasing blood flow and all that.

The healing and general increase in constitution is what keeps the surgebinder (I want to say patient, or subject... Aww this is fun) on his feet, and the super charge in the cells keeps things moving supernaturally effectively.

I ccan't comment on the frost, thermodynamics is beyond me. But the way your body reacts on stimulating substances (help me out with the proper terms EMTrevor, I've been in behavioral health too long) is not.

Physics aside, and physiology to the front. The subject gets a supernatural stimulant, giving a ridiculous healing factor, supernatural strength, reflexes, blah blah blah. And when the storm light is gone, we've got the subject with expanded blood vessels, and a sudden loss of the substitute sustaining the body.

Bam shock.

How it does this to the body, I'll leave it to Trevor and Tempus. Call me if you need a bag spiked!

[Galladon he/him]

First off let me correct an earlier stament of mine: the implicit statement that stormlight is stored in the lungs, which is as wrong as can be. BUT it is concentrated in the chest area. What this means is that a small portion is stored in the blood, while the rest is "kept" in the chest. 

What does this mean? 

 

1. in order to depleat all of the stormlight you have an estimated time, that comprises the following aspects:

blood speed =70 ml/beat* n beats/min = 70*n ml/min        //on average tweeking those numbers doesn't gain us anything

T circulation = 7liters / 70*n ml/min=> T=100/n min 

=> at 100 beat/min it would take 1 min to pump it through, as an example.

 

2. the part that seemingly hasn't been understood, you have to resaturate the blood by a factor of k times

V(total stormlight) = k* V(blood)*saturationkoeff        //the storm rages in the chest

 

3. the total time: from no stormlight saturation to no stormlight saturation.

                Phase 1: t0 to t1 = time taken till total diffusion of the saturated arterial blood = T(circulation)/2= T01

                Phase 2: t1 to t2 = time to continously resaturate the blood untill no more SL is left in the chest

                                              =(V(tot SL)-(V(blood)*saturationkoeff)/2) * 1/blood speed = T12

                Phase 3: t2 to t3 = time taken to actually desaturate blood of the last cycle approaches 0 =T23

        T(total)= T01+T12+T23

 

Calculating an example:

 

Parameters:

 

Blood pump volume= 70ml/beat

Blood Volume = 7 l  (ease of calculation)

n= 200 (beats per minute)

k=5 (Volume modificator, means inhaled 5* the amount neccessary to saturate the complete Volume of blood)

saturationkoeff=1 (ease of calc)

T(circulation)=7liters / 70*n ml/min=> T=100/n min =100/200 min =0.5 min

 

 

T01=T(circulation)/2 = 15s

T12=(V(tot SL)-(V(blood)*saturationkoeff)/2) * 1/blood speed = (k* V(blood)*saturationkoeff)-(V(blood)*saturationkoeff)/2) * 1/blood speed

         =((5*7l*1)-(7l*1/2))*1/(70*200 ml/min)=((35l)-(3.5l))*1/14 min/l = 2.25 min = 2 minutes and 15 s

T23=0s

T03 = 15s+ 2min 15 s +0s =2min 30s

 

This is how long it would take to completely use the SL at a heartrate of 200 bpm (there has been no statement that his heart would race above that, which is something that would have been mentioned)

 

 

If we remember the shield of book 1 which has been infused with all his stormlight in a manner of seconds (3-5s at most), the whole concept falls apart.

 

As to the pressure, physically impossible ( water is too good an insulater and storage of heat as is the human body rapid changes in temp would be strongly dampened)

Edited May 26, 2014 by Galladon

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

First off let me correct an earlier stament of mine: the implicit statement that stormlight is stored in the lungs, which is as wrong as can be. BUT it is concentrated in the chest area. What this means is that a small portion is stored in the blood, while the rest is "kept" in the chest. 

What does this mean? 

 

 

Hmmm, unless I'm misunderstanding you, the idea that this isn't feasible is based off a few false assumptions about the cardiovascular system. So let's start with your initial aspects:

 

 

 

 

1. in order to depleat all of the stormlight you have an estimated time, that comprises the following aspects:

blood speed =70 ml/beat* n beats/min = 70*n ml/min        //on average tweeking those numbers doesn't gain us anything

T circulation = 7liters / 70*n ml/min=> T=100/n min 

=> at 100 beat/min it would take 1 min to pump it through, as an example.

 

 

The average human has a resting heart rate(HR) of 70 bpm, and an average stroke volume(SV) of 70ml, with an average blood volume of 5 liters. Cardiac output(CO) is measured as HR*SV=CO. So we have on average, a cardiac output of 4900ml/min to start. That means the entirety of the normal volume of blood is pumped through the heart in one min, and that's at rest.

 

 

 

  //on average tweeking those numbers doesn't gain us anything

 

Woah, woah, woah! Tweaking those numbers is the entire way the heart functions and compensates for outside forces! You can't just dismiss the entire compensatory mechanism the body has for adjusting cardiac output! 

 

 Let's say you get a little excited, the adrenaline is surging, and your heart rate increases to 120, which really isn' t that great an increase. Without changing your SV, already the CO is increased to 8400 ml/min. That's a 59% increase, which definitely does gain us something. This is even without increasing the stroke volume, which you completely ignored as a potential variable. Under normal conditions, generally we expect the heart rate can get up to 180 before it is pumping too fast to be effective. Again, not counting for any difference in stroke volume, we see a CO of 12.6 liters. That means your moving double the amount of blood in a normal persons body in one minute already. 

 

SV is controlled by the strength of the heart's contraction, and the amount of blood filling the heart, which at rest is nowhere near its potental. The strength of the contraction is actually about 50% during an at rest contraction. Frank-Starling's law states that SV of the heart increases in response to a larger volume of blood filling the heart, so, stormlight expansion of the heart only serves to increase SV.  The one limiting factor increasing the stroke volume is the elasticity of the heart, basically that if you overfill the heart, you damage its ability to contract, like overinflating a balloon and wearing out the side of the wall. With Stormlight, that damage can be healed as it happens, causing an even higher threshold to SV. 

 

But when you include the difference to SV as well, it becomes even more marked a difference. A normal person vigorously exercising can potentially have a cardiac output 7 times higher than at rest. They are transporting 35 liters of blood through the body in 1 minute, which would mean the volume of blood is transporte through the body in 8.57 seconds. 

 

 

 

2. the part that seemingly hasn't been understood, you have to resaturate the blood by a factor of k times

V(total stormlight) = k* V(blood)*saturationkoeff        //the storm rages in the chest

 

This is how long it would take to completely use the SL at a heartrate of 200 bpm (there has been no statement that his heart would race above that, which is something that would have been mentioned)

 

 

What's the surgebinder using the Stormlight for? Are they just using it for increased physical prowess? This would need the least stormlight, and you would not need to use all the stormlight in the blood, so it could recirculate. Is it healing? This is going to use the Stormlight up faster. It it being poured into a shield as quickly as possible?  How much stormlight did they inhale?  You make a lot of assumptions about this without taking into account other variables. 

 

This is why Sigzil has such a hard time establishing standards for Kaladin's testing.

 

There's a huge amount of variables that you aren't accounting for, starting from the very beginning where you completely ignored the vital role SV has on changing CO. 

 

 

 

 

If we remember the shield of book 1 which has been infused with all his stormlight in a manner of seconds (3-5s at most), the whole concept falls apart.

 

A normal person who has been exercising as hard as Kaladin had, could transport their entire blood volume through their body in 10s easily, and again, that's from left ventricle to left ventricle. So that's 5s approximately from left ventricle to the furthest capilaries in the body before entering the venous system on its way back to the heart. A normal person already meets the criteria you present, without actually involving any extra abilities given by stormlight, as it would take less than 5s to reach the hands, where the stormlight is being directed. 

 

 

 

As to the pressure, physically impossible ( water is too good an insulater and storage of heat as is the human body rapid changes in temp would be strongly dampened)

 

Tempus has already beaten that theory about it causing the temperature changes, but there's nothing to say that stormlight could still be compressed in the spheres, and then decompresses as it moves through the body, which still makes the most sense to me. 

 

Source:http://www.biosbcc.net/doohan/sample/htm/COandMAPhtm.htm

Edited May 26, 2014 by EMTrevor

[harry31j97 he/him]

Beautiful theory, but let me be devil's advocate. You all are forgetting one thing, different humans (or creatures) can use stormlight to different efficacy, owing to different stages in their bond to their sprens, or the method allowing them to access surges.

For e.g honorblades are not as good at allowing the body to contain stormlight as spren bond. Also it is mentioned that some voidbringers have more porous body than others (I don't exactly remember its name).

So I think instead of acting like O2 & binding to Hb, the method of access to surge creates some substance that binds stormlight. Imagine a drug binding to plasma proteins or lipids in the body. I haven't fine tuned this theory & I'm not sure how this could fit with better reflexes and all, so discuss. (Maybe the method of access to surge determines Hb saturation like 2,3 - BPG does it in us mere mortals.)

Edited May 26, 2014 by harry31j97

[harry31j97 he/him]

Also regarding frost formation, I think we should remember that this IS a fantasy world where magic is real. Some things just can't be explained by known laws of thermodynamics.

[Fifth of Daybreak he/him]

Beautiful theory, but let me be devil's advocate. You all are forgetting one thing, different humans (or creatures) can use stormlight to different efficacy, owing to different stages in their bond to their sprens, or the method allowing them to access surges.

For e.g honorblades are not as good at allowing the body to contain stormlight as spren bond. Also it is mentioned that some voidbringers have more porous body than others (I don't exactly remember its name).

So I think instead of acting like O2 & binding to Hb, the method of access to surge creates some substance that binds stormlight. Imagine a drug binding to plasma proteins or lipids in the body. I haven't fine tuned this theory & I'm not sure how this could fit with better reflexes and all, so discuss. (Maybe the method of access to surge determines Hb saturation like 2,3 - BPG does it in us mere mortals.)

 

First of all, if you wouldn't mind editing your post to include a spoiler tag, this is in the general forum and not the sub forum. Thanks

 

I don't think its a matter of the bind points, but as you said, a matter of efficacy. Drugs work in similar ways, you give a 12 yr old x amount of morphine and it barely touches the pain for a broken ankle, you give morphine to a 425 pound guy and it puts him to sleep (I've seen both these instances.) 

 

So, basically, Kaladin and Szeth both hold x amount of stormlight. Kaladin is using stormlight efficiently, but Szeth, because of the honorblade, Szeth only has a stormlight efficacy of 2/3 Kaladins. They both hold the same amount of stormlight, they both bind the same amount of stormlight, but Szeth is not able to metabolize the stormlight because his spiritweb makeup is not optimized to do so, so he uses more stormlight more quickly.

 

That being said, hemoglobin is just my best guess as to a binding point, as it is the binding site for many other chemicals-oxygen, carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide. But it doesn't necessarily have to be where it binds to, the main idea behind the theory is that it is transported by the blood through the body. 

 

As far as the frost is concerned, I completely agree with Tempus on this point, he found a good number of flaws in my logic, and while it can ignore some components for magical reasons, to base a small part of the concept in real world phycics, and then ignore the rest of it just doesn't add up. I think the theories being discussed here have a much higher probability of being correct: http://www.17thshard.com/forum/topic/8775-magic-fuel/

Edited May 26, 2014 by EMTrevor

[harry31j97 he/him]

So, basically, Kaladin and Szeth both hold x amount of stormlight. Kaladin is using stormlight efficiently, but Szeth, because of the honorblade, Szeth only has a stormlight efficacy of 2/3 Kaladins. They both hold the same amount of stormlight, they both bind the same amount of stormlight, but Szeth is not able to metabolize the stormlight because his spiritweb makeup is not optimized to do so, so he uses more stormlight more quickly.

That is not so. Even when Szeth isn't actively surgebinding, even if he's just holding the stormlight, there is decay, which was my point. I don't have the exact quote on me, I'll quote when I get home.

[Galladon he/him]

Lets assume that 40L/min is the absolute maximum http://btc.montana.edu/olympics/physiology/pb01.html (as we have a decreased

g(rochar) =0.7 *g; Kal is far from a olympian mainly because the only exercise he'd done within the last year was 1 month of sparsely carrying a bridge at a calory intake of 1000/d, stormlight compensates for the rest)

 

You do know that I've made allof those calculations assuming that the heartrate is at 200 bpm? 

 

but lets take 50L/min throughput of the heart: this still means we are roughly 40s (assuming 5*resaturation of the entire blood). As we would need to pump roughly 30 L of blood past the point at which the target is.

 

And this whole calculation doesn't even take into account that the aortic arch has 3 offshouts for example which means that with one circulation only a small portion of the blood has traveled by the hand infact I am not able to find numbers here.

 

But this would roughly mean that at most 1/4 of the arterial throughput would reach the needed destination. I would estimate more like 1/8 to 1/12 of the throughput of 50L/min. (aorta ascend and descend ratio, etc you know better-edit)

 

so in actuality we are pumping about 5L/min past the right hand (which is a VERY conservative estimate (i guess more like 1L/minute).

 

Maybe you, seeming to be a MD or so, know how much blood is actually passed through the arteries in the hand (otherwise I will do the caluation (Bloodpressure -> estimated diameter of the combined arterial vessals=> amount of blod pumped past, but this would be very inacurate and tidious).

 

edit: adding a small remark

Edited May 26, 2014 by Galladon