How Does One "Kill" a Herald?

[Karger he/him]

59 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

To me the reason is because there are other forces going on. The thunderclast could just have been the stick that broke the camels back as it were. 

On 11/22/2019 at 6:01 PM, Knight of Iron said:

In all seriousness though, very good points. I guess Odium's army just got lucky. The question then, should be not how does one kill a Herald, but how did so many of them die so often? They seemed surprised that only Taln had died, and mention that it was not uncommon for most of them to die.

Better phrasing.  So maybe it is just down to getting a lucky shot?

[Pathfinder]

41 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Better phrasing.  So maybe it is just down to getting a lucky shot?

Not the wording I would use based on how I envision it, but sure if that is how you want to say it. I wouldn't personally call the morphing fused that cracked Kaladin with his club hand while Kaladin fought Amaram a lucky shot, but that is one form of a scenario I would envision. 

[mathiau he/him]

How to kill a Herald? Use aluminium, investiture cannot heal a wound with aluminium inside, and as aluminium can be soulcast finding some would not be a problem.

[Karger he/him]

5 minutes ago, mathiau said:

How to kill a Herald? Use aluminium, investiture cannot heal a wound with aluminium inside, and as aluminium can be soulcast finding some would not be a problem.

Yeah but if that was how things were done where are all the aluminum weapons and also Kelek's death experiences don't line up with that.

[mathiau he/him]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Yeah but if that was how things were done where are all the aluminum weapons and also Kelek's death experiences don't line up with that.

Well since aluminium is a bad metal to make weapons with it would probably only be used by a specific group of fused (a bit like the hazeliker) so they would not be a lot of this type of weapon. (although I mostly told how I would kill a herald, not sure that's how Odium did it)

[agrabes]

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

I think the WoB I have posted shows the heralds were of the level I posit. To each their own

I think the Heralds are definitely very powerful, but I also think they have to have the ability to be killed in a reasonable way otherwise it wouldn't have been possible for more than one of them to be killed in most desolations.  I do think that you are right that Odium has way more powerful abilities/resources that he has not yet used, but even then if the Heralds had infinite healing power to the point that they could come back even if their entire physical body has been reduced to atoms it seems impossible for them to be killed.  So I think that means we have to be missing some piece of how their power works.  We know they were killed regularly.  So something must be missing, there must be some weakness.  

I think it has to be one of three things:

1) The power of the two surges granted by the Honorblades are magnified greatly by being fueled directly by Honor, but not the healing property of stormlight.  This would make sense and seems plausible because (I believe) we know that Radiants' healing abilities are granted by stormlight and we also know that being directly fueled by Honor, the Heralds did not need stormlight.  We do not know for sure whether or not being directly fueled by Honor would grant healing abilities.  I don't believe that healing abilities were granted in the Mistborn examples that people are talking about, only magnification of the existing powers held by the person who was fueled by the Shard.  If that's true, then other than the Heralds who have healing abilities from their surges, the others do not have extraordinary healing powers.  This means that if you can pin them down, wear them out, or overwhelm them somehow and get to them then you could kill them.  However, this would not explain how it would be possible to kill a Herald with a healing surge.

2) The Fused, Unmade, or Odium himself have the ability to attack or disrupt the "spiritual template" referenced the WoB above.  This would stop the healing abilities of the Herald.  How they do this I don't know - but if all the Heralds really do have the extreme healing abilities it seems like this would be the only way to kill them.  Get enough overwhelming power working against them that it severely damages their physical body while simultaneously attacking their "spiritual template".

3) In the first Desolation, when they were all mentally strong, the Heralds really couldn't be killed by any means.  After the desolation, they went to Braize and eventually one of them broke under torture, losing mental resolve.  After being broken thoroughly enough, the Heralds stopped having this "spiritual template" or just simply the force of will to continue on after suffering severe damage and the ones that had been broken allowed themselves to die.  This seems impossible though, because we know Taln died at least once prior to being broken.

What it comes down to is we have to reconcile two known facts that seem to be contradictory.  I think the most obvious one to target is our knowledge about the Heralds' abilities.  We don't know a lot about it yet, so we could easily be misinterpreting something about them.  Just my thoughts.  

[Karger he/him]

15 hours ago, agrabes said:

2) The Fused, Unmade, or Odium himself have the ability to attack or disrupt the "spiritual template" referenced the WoB above.  This would stop the healing abilities of the Herald.  How they do this I don't know - but if all the Heralds really do have the extreme healing abilities it seems like this would be the only way to kill them.  Get enough overwhelming power working against them that it severely damages their physical body while simultaneously attacking their "spiritual template".

Something like a leecher that could stop them from healing for a while.

15 hours ago, agrabes said:

What it comes down to is we have to reconcile two known facts that seem to be contradictory.  I think the most obvious one to target is our knowledge about the Heralds' abilities.  We don't know a lot about it yet, so we could easily be misinterpreting something about them.  Just my thoughts.  

I agree with your assessment.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Honorless he/him]

8 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Corrupting spren for spying purposes is dangerous yes, but the epigraph states:

"Of the Unmade, Sja-anat was most feared by the Radiants."

That says to me there is something especially threatening about Sja-anat to the radiants, and I do not think we have seen it yet. Being a spy does not scream "most feared" to me. 

I disagree. I think it is indicative that she is not all that she once was and the imprisonment either damaged or deprived her of it. That if she was whole, she would be a far greater threat. 

I never said his massive cognitive self was his means of fighting. I mean all he was used for in that instance was a trap. He hung around an area getting certain people to indulge basically broadcasting to the radiants "come here!". To set them up. I do not think that is the full extent of his abilities. 

We know it is possible for cognitive shadows to get off world (Vasher), but you have to learn how to. 

The fused make the transition without bodies, and the heralds and the fused were originally meant to function the same way. I think that if the heralds have to grow a new body everytime they come to Roshar, and we know they are cognitive shadows, then on Braize they lack bodies. But that is not conclusive. 

There are still rules that are obeyed across the cosmere. Any exception to the rule has a reason. We know all Shard's power is in the spiritual realm. There is only one exception, and we know that was changed on purpose. I see no reason why the heralds would function differently. But to each their own. 

When I think of someone especially terrifying to me, spying does not hit the top of my list. 

All that is conjecture then, while as I pointed out, their reputation already fits their capabilities

The Midnight Essence, all spren being potential spies, collapse of cities are all worthy deeds to be associated with the Unmade, in my opinion.

Vasher might turn out to not be a great example of a Cognitive Shadow in the context of them being unable to leave their world. Yes, the Returned are basically this stapled onto their bodies via Divine Breath but that BioChroma is designed to be able to be give-able, keying to new identity when Breath is given. I think it would make sense if the Returned turn out to be not so bound to Nalthis as other Cognitive entities.

We do have a sequence of Shalash and Taln remembering their... stay on Braize. They remember physical torture. So the Heralds do have bodies on Braize.

You don't find spies scary? The idea that all of your strategies and counters are being passed on to the enemy? that the enemy knows all your moves in advance? That the enemy knows key structures of your side? Check out World War spies and what they accomplished or how feared they were. Trust me, spies are scary.

[Karger he/him]

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

The Midnight Essence, all spren being potential spies, collapse of cities are all worthy deeds to be associated with the Unmade, in my opinion.

Those are from Re Shephir the midnight mother not Sja Anat the taker of secrets.

3 minutes ago, Honorless said:

You don't find spies scary? The idea that all of your strategies and counters are being passed on to the enemy? that the enemy knows all your moves in advance? That the enemy knows key structures of your side? Check out World War spies and what they accomplished or how feared they were. Trust me, spies are scary.

I agree.  The idea of an omniciant force working against you would terrify any rational military commander.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Ookla the Prolific

[Honorless he/him]

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Those are from Re Shephir the midnight mother not Sja Anat the taker of secrets.

See the full thing, Karg. I wasn't just talking about Sja-Anat

6 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I agree.  The idea of an omniciant force working against you would terrify any rational military commander.

Thanks!

[Karger he/him]

10 hours ago, Honorless said:

See the full thing, Karg. I wasn't just talking about Sja-Anat

Sorry.  I think there was a bit of confusion earlier in the thread.

[Honorless he/him]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Sorry.  I think there was a bit of confusion earlier in the thread.

S'okay

oh no... dude, you wrote 'lecher' instead of 'leecher' in a prev comment, lol

[Karger he/him]

7 minutes ago, Honorless said:

oh no... dude, you wrote 'lecher' instead of 'leecher' in a prev comment, lol

Stupid spell check!

[Honorless he/him]

1 minute ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Stupid spell check!

I feel your pain, I wrote Kaladin's Phantom instead of Kalad's Phantom once, lol

[Pathfinder]

21 hours ago, agrabes said:

What it comes down to is we have to reconcile two known facts that seem to be contradictory.  I think the most obvious one to target is our knowledge about the Heralds' abilities.  We don't know a lot about it yet, so we could easily be misinterpreting something about them.  Just my thoughts.  

And for myself, the forces we have not seen yet from Odium is what balances that equation. So to me it is less that we should lower the power of the heralds because what we see now does would not equal that. It is more that the power level of Odium will be revealed to be equal to the level of the heralds based on the level I posit. So myself the equation balances. We just haven't seen all the variables yet that account for the balance. 

 

15 hours ago, Honorless said:

All that is conjecture then, while as I pointed out, their reputation already fits their capabilities

Again tidbits. I think those are bits of a whole. But to each their own. 

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The Midnight Essence, all spren being potential spies, collapse of cities are all worthy deeds to be associated with the Unmade, in my opinion.

I respect your opinion, but personally disagree. 

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Vasher might turn out to not be a great example of a Cognitive Shadow in the context of them being unable to leave their world. Yes, the Returned are basically this stapled onto their bodies via Divine Breath but that BioChroma is designed to be able to be give-able, keying to new identity when Breath is given. I think it would make sense if the Returned turn out to be not so bound to Nalthis as other Cognitive entities.

WoB show when discussing heralds, and mistborn spoiler:

Spoiler

Kelsier

regarding leaving the planet, Brandon references Vasher/Zahel. They are all cognitive shadows. 

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We do have a sequence of Shalash and Taln remembering their... stay on Braize. They remember physical torture. So the Heralds do have bodies on Braize.

Mistborn spoilers:

Spoiler

Kelsier feels very real physical pain as Hoid beats him, yet he was a cognitive shadow without a body. 

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You don't find spies scary? The idea that all of your strategies and counters are being passed on to the enemy? that the enemy knows all your moves in advance? That the enemy knows key structures of your side? Check out World War spies and what they accomplished or how feared they were. Trust me, spies are scary.

The quote specifies the radiants fearing her above all else. if it was just for spying, I would imagine the heralds and all of honors forces would be just as terrified, but apparently it is especially radiants. That says to me it is more. But I guess we will RAFO

15 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I agree.  The idea of an omniciant force working against you would terrify any rational military commander.

And any rational military commander from the days of the desolations with access to radiants full abilities would be able to keep an eye out for a corrupted spren, and know what to look for like in Dalinar's vision, thereby preventing it. That still does not come off as terrifying to radiants in particular. But to each their own.  

edit: Words of Radiance page 72

To save typing out the entire scene, Dalinar's group is tracking a spren corrupted by Sja-anat. Coeb saw something, so they made a group of squires with one knight to hunt for it. Just as they nearly got it, its escort shows up. The escort dives into the ground and a thunderclast breaks from the earth, while the corrupted spren escapes. So the spren can be spotted and stopped with one radiant, and a few men. I think it would take more for that to be so especially fearful. But to each their own. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

Spoiler

46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

Kelsier feels very real physical pain as Hoid beats him, yet he was a cognitive shadow without a body. 

Only because he thinks he should that pain is optional.

46 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The quote specifies the radiants fearing her above all else. if it was just for spying, I would imagine the heralds and all of honors forces would be just as terrified, but apparently it is especially radiants. That says to me it is more. But I guess we will RAFO

I seriously doubt that anyone had access to Herald's opinions.  Also they have been around for so long that any fused should be able to tell you everything their is to know about any given Herald like they are writing a biography.

48 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

To save typing out the entire scene, Dalinar's group is tracking a spren corrupted by Sja-anat. Coeb saw something, so they made a group of squires with one knight to hunt for it. Just as they nearly got it, its escort shows up. The escort dives into the ground and a thunderclast breaks from the earth, while the corrupted spren escapes. So the spren can be spotted and stopped with one radiant, and a few men. I think it would take more for that to be so especially fearful. But to each their own. 

We have no way of knowing if the unmade herself is actually present their.  Also depending on stormlight amounts that Radiant's odds are not great and they have been successfully ambushed.

[Pathfinder]

12 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Only because he thinks he should that pain is optional.

mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

 

"It hurt. kelsier lacked a body, but apparently his spirit could feel pain."

"Drifter sighed, then proceeded to kick at Kelsier's leg repeatedly, shocking him with the pain of it. He screamed, holding his leg. It should have cracked from the force of those kicks, and though it had not, the pain was overwhelming"

"This is a lesson. But not the one you might think it is. You'd don't have a body, and I don't have the inclination to actually injure your soul. That pain is caused by your mind; it's thinking about what should be happening to you, and responding"

 

The spirit can be injured. Hoid is choosing to injure Kelsier in such a way that is not permanent. Even then Kelsier, with knowledge that the pain is not real, with focus, can barely dull it after the fact. Seeing hooks being dug into your flesh on the other hand I would imagine would have a greater effect on the subject i.e. the heralds

 

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I seriously doubt that anyone had access to Herald's opinions.  Also they have been around for so long that any fused should be able to tell you everything their is to know about any given Herald like they are writing a biography.

The quote was from Hessi. The scene I referenced was a vision. If spying was so fearful, I still do not understand why it was so singularly focused on the radiants. Not humans in general, not the heralds, not "the forces of honor". Radiants. But to each their own. 

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We have no way of knowing if the unmade herself is actually present their.  Also depending on stormlight amounts that Radiant's odds are not great and they have been successfully ambushed.

What does the Unmade's presence have to do with it? Please read the scene, I provided the page number for reference. A soldier saw something unusual. They figured it might be a corrupted spren of Sja-anat, and put together a small group to hunt it. A small group being 1 radiant, and a few mundane individuals (possibly squires, though they slosh through water and don't exhibit surges like the radiant does). They seem pretty confident they can handle it. it is only when the escort shows up, that is revealed to be a voidbringer that can create a thunderclast, that the situation escalates. So I still do not see spying alone as so singularly dangerous to radiants that it is specifically mentioned. 

Edited December 3, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Seeing hooks being dug into your flesh on the other hand I would imagine would have a greater effect on the subject i.e. the heralds

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Kelseir is fairly new at this.  The heralds have had millennia of practice.  Also there is no telling what injuring the soul of a Herlad would require or do.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

The quote was from Hessi

Who(as far as we know) has limited access to information on/concerning Heralds.  Also all of her information is secondhand.  She may have stumbled across some misleading information.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

If spying was so fearful, I still do not understand why it was so singularly focused on the radiants. Not humans in general, not the heralds, not "the forces of honor". Radiants. But to each their own

Hessi is likely reading information left behind by the Radiants.  Remember for generations they were the only people on Roshar who had education better then the average caveman.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

What does the Unmade's presence have to do with it? Please read the scene, I provided the page number for reference. A soldier saw something unusual. They figured it might be a corrupted spren of Sja-anat, and put together a small group to hunt it. A small group being 1 radiant, and a few mundane individuals (possibly squires, though they slosh through water and don't exhibit surges like the radiant does). They seem pretty confident they can handle it. it is only when the escort shows up, that is revealed to be a voidbringer that can create a thunderclast, that the situation escalates

This is likely from an earlier desolation and illustrates the danger of Sja-anat.  These people got played and totally screwed over by one of her minions she was not even there! 

Also this is only tangentially related to the thread we should probably bring this back to relevanceville.

[Pathfinder]

17 hours ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Who(as far as we know) has limited access to information on/concerning Heralds.  Also all of her information is secondhand.  She may have stumbled across some misleading information.

So we can cherry pick when Hessi is accurate versus limited?

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Hessi is likely reading information left behind by the Radiants.  Remember for generations they were the only people on Roshar who had education better then the average caveman.

Yet she was accurate that the Unmade were still around on Roshar even after the heralds "won", and even stated certain phenomena that is treated as normal in modern day would be attributed to them. So please let me know which of her statements are accurate, and which are inaccurate so I know what I can base my reasoning on. 

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This is likely from an earlier desolation and illustrates the danger of Sja-anat.  These people got played and totally screwed over by one of her minions she was not even there! 

It wasn't her minion that screwed over the Radiant. I said it twice now, so I guess I have to quote the scene:

 

"There!" Dalinar said, spotting a small red dot in the water. It flowed away from him, swimming like a fish. He charged after, running as he'd learned earlier. What good would it do to chase a spren, though? You couldn't catch them. Not with any method he knew.

The others charged behind. Fish scattered away, frightened by Dalinar's splashing. "I'm chasing a spren" Dalinar said under his breath. "It's what we've been hunting. It looks a little like a face - a shadowy one, with red eyes. It swims through the water like a fish. Wait! There's another one. Joining it. Larger, like a full figure, easily six feet. A swimming person, but like a shadow. It-"

"Storms!" The knight shouted suddenly "It brought an escort!"

The larger spren twisted, then dove downward in the water, vanishing into the rocky ground. Dalinar stopped, uncertain if he should keep chasing the smaller one or remain here.

The others turned and started to run the other way. "Uh-oh....."

Dalinar scrambled back as the rocky lake bottom began to shake. He stumbled, splashing down into the water. It was so clear he could see the floor cracking under him, as if something large were pounding against it from beneath.

 

The scene continues with describing the thunderclast rising from the ground, and how the radiant and the men have to square off against it. The corrupted spren spy was not what they fled from to form up behind their radiant. The corrupted spren spy was not what Dalinar went "uh-oh". It was the escort. It was the fused that we saw at the battle of Thaylenah that can inhabit the rock creating a thunderclast. That is what freaked out the radiant and the men. Not the corrupted spren. The corrupted spren they pursued and chased. The corrupted spren they knew what to look for to spot it. The corrupted spren that when they got to it, Dalinar assumed they would have a way to deal with it (either capture or destruction). If I am to believe that the reason Sja-anat was so singly terrifying to the radiants in particular due to her corrupted spren spying, then why send only one radiant to stop it? Why can mundane humans stop it? I still think there is something more to it. 

 

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Also this is only tangentially related to the thread we should probably bring this back to relevanceville.

You started a thread with this statement:

 

"We know that the Herald's "died" during the desolations but they have unlimited access to Honor's investiture.  How did the fused kill them?"

 

In our prior discussions you have argued that you do not personally believe this is true. So essentially you posted a thread to find others who can provide reasons why this is not true, thus validating your own belief. In other words, show how direct access to investiture means they could not be killed, or are too powerful, thereby they could not have had direct access to honor's investiture. Given that I believe the heralds did in fact have access to honors investiture directly (as per WoB), I am going to respond to those that put forward reasons why they believe the heralds did not. Since it is the thread's main dispute on the original post is that the heralds did not have direct access to honor's investiture, then me responding to that as to why I think they did is in line with the thread. If the continued rationale as to why the heralds would not have direct access to honor's investiture is it would mean they are too powerful, then it is in line with the thread for me to respond that I believe Odium's forces have greater means to draw upon, to balance the heralds drawing directly on honor, so then the heralds would not be too powerful. To me that is all well in line with the thread. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Pathfinder

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So we can cherry pick when Hessi is accurate versus limited?

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Yet she was accurate that the Unmade were still around on Roshar even after the heralds "won", and even stated certain phenomena that is treated as normal in modern day would be attributed to them. So please let me know which of her statements are accurate, and which are inaccurate so I know what I can base my reasoning on. 

I am pointing out that this is 5th hand information at best so getting hung up on individual word choices is not productive.  She has been shown be right in general but treating everything she says like gospel is likely to make problems.  Mistborn spoilers

Spoiler

Think Kelsier's first explanation to Vin.  He gives her some great pointers but he does make several mistakes.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

"There!" Dalinar said, spotting a small red dot in the water. It flowed away from him, swimming like a fish. He charged after, running as he'd learned earlier. What good would it do to chase a spren, though? You couldn't catch them. Not with any method he knew.

This is what I am referring to.  The spren is leading them into a trap.  They chase it and then suddenly the thunderclast shows up.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

In our prior discussions you have argued that you do not personally believe this is true.

This is my personal opinion.  I could well be wrong.  Realizing this possibility is what makes me a scientist as apposed to some random idiot on the internet.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

So essentially you posted a thread to find others who can provide reasons why this is not true, thus validating your own belief

This is completely unfair.  I noticed what appears to be an interesting inconsistency and thought that other people might be interested.  I am not trying to definitively prove anything.  I seriously doubt that we can.

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Given that I believe the heralds did in fact have access to honors investiture directly (as per WoB), I am going to respond to those that put forward reasons why they believe the heralds did not. Since it is the thread's main dispute on the original post is that the heralds did not have direct access to honor's investiture, then me responding to that as to why I think they did is in line with the thread. If the continued rationale as to why the heralds would not have direct access to honor's investiture is it would mean they are too powerful, then it is in line with the thread for me to respond that I believe Odium's forces have greater means to draw upon, to balance the heralds drawing directly on honor, so then the heralds would not be too powerful. To me that is all well in line with the thread. 

Alright that is fine but try and stay on track.  I do not want this to become a Sja-anat speculation thread. 

[Pathfinder]

1 hour ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

I am pointing out that this is 5th hand information at best so getting hung up on individual word choices is not productive.  She has been shown be right in general but treating everything she says like gospel is likely to make problems.  Mistborn spoilers

  Reveal hidden contents

Think Kelsier's first explanation to Vin.  He gives her some great pointers but he does make several mistakes.

I am not treating what she said as gospel. I am taking the information provided, and trying to reason out certain statements. As you said, she is pretty accurate in what she wrote. Lets go over what we know she got right:

1. The unmade are specific types of spren, endowed with vast powers. They are not simply spirits of the void, or nine shadows who moved in the night

2. The Unmade are still among them and some common effects in the world can be attributed to them

3. Yelig-nar had the power of all the surges. He could change any voidbringer into an extremely dangerous enemy, and swallowing a gemstone starts this process

4. Yelig-nar consumes souls. As we see, Yelig-nar does in fact consume the individual who uses his power

5. A city is corrupted by Sja-anat when spren start acting strangely. Sja-anat is an individual while Moeloch and Ashertmarn is a "force"

6. Nergaoul causes battle rage and ferocity. This affects both sides of the conflict. It is a less self aware spren

7. Nergaoul is still on Roshar, is still active, and the Alethi Thrill is Nergaoul

8. Moelach grants visions of the future

9. Moelach grants visions of the future most commonly at the transition point between realms. Usually death

10. Moelach is the cause of the death rattles

11. Ashertmarn causes lust for indulgence

12. Re-sephir creates monsters that are dark imitations of what she saw or consumed. 

13. There are nine Unmade

 

So 13 things Hessi has stated that we know for sure are true. The only other things are comments that have not been confirmed yet. So I do not see why I cannot take what she says as reasonable information to base my thoughts on. 

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This is what I am referring to.  The spren is leading them into a trap.  They chase it and then suddenly the thunderclast shows up.

The spren was not leading them into a trap. The corrupted spren was on a spy mission. It was spotted by Coeb. Coeb called it in. A single radiant and mundane humans went to hunt it down. The corrupted spren had an escort. As in a personal guard. That guard was a voidbringer that can make thunderclasts. Nothing regarding that escort is concerning Sja-anat. It wasn't the corrupted spren that created the thunderclast. The corrupted spren did not stick around for the fight. The thunderclast escort ran interference so the spy could get away. Nothing in that scene inspires terror in me towards the corrupted spren. A giant rock monster that can suddenly pop out of the ground? Totally. But that is not what Hessi referred to. Hessi referred to Sja-anat. 

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This is my personal opinion.  I could well be wrong.  Realizing this possibility is what makes me a scientist as apposed to some random idiot on the internet.

The reason I called attention to this, is it is like when you posted in another thread about a herald being able to fight the lord ruler. Since you did not believe it yourself, when someone challenges you on it, you do not have the information or resources to defend it, so the argument is mis-represented. You can totally disagree with the argument, but it is counter intuitive for me for someone against an argument to argue for it. 

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This is completely unfair.  I noticed what appears to be an interesting inconsistency and thought that other people might be interested.  I am not trying to definitively prove anything.  I seriously doubt that we can.

Which is why I would have expected a topic more like "I was shown this and this and this for that heralds draw investiture directly from honor. I disagree with this. Does anyone feel the same? Anyone agree with this? Can you tell me why?"

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Alright that is fine but try and stay on track.  I do not want this to become a Sja-anat speculation thread. 

You are stating reasons why you feel Sja-anat is just a spy. I am stating reasons why I think there is more to her, and the rest of Odium's forces. If you feel it is a digression, then on Sja-anat we can agree to disagree and drop that subject. 

[Karger he/him]

14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

2. The Unmade are still among them and some common effects in the world can be attributed to them

Some of them anyway.

15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

So 13 things Hessi has stated that we know for sure are true. The only other things are comments that have not been confirmed yet. So I do not see why I cannot take what she says as reasonable information to base my thoughts on. 

You absolutely can.  I just take issue with your understanding of the line "most feared by the Radiants" to mean only the Radiants and no one else.  Is it possible that she can do stuff to the Radiants or Heralds that she can't to anyone else absolutely.  Does that mean that this specific word choice must be significant not at all.

18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The spren was not leading them into a trap

3 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

"There!" Dalinar said, spotting a small red dot in the water. It flowed away from him, swimming like a fish. He charged after, running as he'd learned earlier. What good would it do to chase a spren, though

And then the thunderclast shows up.  Sounds like a trap to me.  If it was a literal escort then it was not doing the basic body guard job of staying next to the person that they were supposed to protect.  If the edgedancer had been slightly faster then they could have caught up with the Sja-annat spren before the thunderclast showed up.

22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

The reason I called attention to this, is it is like when you posted in another thread about a herald being able to fight the lord ruler. Since you did not believe it yourself, when someone challenges you on it, you do not have the information or resources to defend it, so the argument is mis-represented. You can totally disagree with the argument, but it is counter intuitive for me for someone against an argument to argue for it. 

So the fact that I happened to take a position in a different discussion that was somewhat related to this one makes it OK for you to quote my opinion, state that I believe it as fact and then state incorrectly what I made this thread for some kind of ego boost?

26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said:

You are stating reasons why you feel Sja-anat is just a spy. I am stating reasons why I think there is more to her, and the rest of Odium's forces. If you feel it is a digression, then on Sja-anat we can agree to disagree and drop that subject. 

Perhaps just summarize your beliefs about Odium's forces with whatever proof you can come up with and then lets just drop this.  I don't think it is going anywhere helpful.

[Pathfinder]

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Some of them anyway.

The comment is still verified to be factually true. 

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

You absolutely can.  I just take issue with your understanding of the line "most feared by the Radiants" to mean only the Radiants and no one else.  Is it possible that she can do stuff to the Radiants or Heralds that she can't to anyone else absolutely.  Does that mean that this specific word choice must be significant not at all.

the implication I get is there is something Sja-anat can do, that is especially fearsome to Radiants. For instance, salt hurts dogs paws in winter because it lowers the freezing point of water, so it can be painful for dogs to walk on wet sidewalks that have recently be salted. That hurts dogs. A snail that moves across salt will writhe and die. Salt is terrifying to snails because it dries them out. Salt is harmful to dogs because it lowers the freezing temperature of water. Same source, two different processes, with two different levels of severity. I am saying the radiants are the snails in this case, and we just do not know why yet. 

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

And then the thunderclast shows up.  Sounds like a trap to me.  If it was a literal escort then it was not doing the basic body guard job of staying next to the person that they were supposed to protect.  If the edgedancer had been slightly faster then they could have caught up with the Sja-annat spren before the thunderclast showed up.

kaladin protected Dalinar and frequently he was no where near Dalinar, because Dalinar had to be off by himself to accomplish the goal of sealing away the unmade. the corrupted spren was spying on the humans. The spying would be ineffective if the fused was right next to it. The spy was discovered. It fled and was able to meet up with its escort in time before the radiant and mundane humans caught it. Regardless, yet again Hessi mentioned Sja-anat. If it was a trap, then a trap that any spren, human, or otherwise could spring does still not sound to me like it is so unique that Sja-anat in particular would be feared, and be so feared by the radiants. 

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

So the fact that I happened to take a position in a different discussion that was somewhat related to this one makes it OK for you to quote my opinion, state that I believe it as fact and then state incorrectly what I made this thread for some kind of ego boost?

I never said it was for an ego boost. I said you are presenting an argument you yourself do not prescribe to, so you are misrepresenting it. So I came here to represent it fully. 

9 minutes ago, Ookla the Prolific said:

Perhaps just summarize your beliefs about Odium's forces with whatever proof you can come up with and then lets just drop this.  I don't think it is going anywhere helpful.

I already did multiple times. Before Honor's death, the heralds could draw directly on Honor's investiture via the honorblades to fuel their surges. During this time, Odium fielded forces that challenged that level of power, which is why the Heralds have died in the past. Odium, feeling the heralds at the time were a non-issue, and that he already won at the battle of Thaylenah, has not summoned these greater forces yet. Now that the heralds are starting to be a threat again, as well as Dalinar is something seemingly new, Odium will begin bringing more of his more powerful forces into the fight. This will raise the stakes. Which is why I believe brandon responded to a reader's concern about the "power creep" being not an issue. That is my perspective and have summed it up as such. To each their own. 

 

Questioner

If I had any questions at all, I would say: ramp? Stormlight Archive, as it's going forward, like super power creep issues. The characters get so powerful so quickly, and it's gonna be a 10 (hopefully) book series.

Brandon Sanderson

Remember, it's two sets of five. And we will be... how about this. We're just gonna RAFO you now, because I'm being recorded. I'm not gonna give you any hints about the future. Just... I've got it in hand.

I was able to write three books about Rand al'Thor at the height of his power, so I'm pretty convinced I'll be okay.

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 29, 2019)

[NameIess]

The most likely reason for the Radiants fearing Sja-anat is that either that they feared she might able to corrupt their spren, or she could corrupt their spren, which would A: break their bond, or B: corrupt their surges or mind, giving Odium influence over them. I know that neither of these happened to Renarin, at least so far, but if option A is correct, then because he bonded a corrupt spren, instead of having his spren corrupted, the oaths and temperament required would not have been changed. If option B is correct, then Odium simply didn't know that Renarin was bonded to a corrupt spren, and we will see him begin to manipulate him in book 4.

[Karger he/him]

6 minutes ago, Llstml said:

The most likely reason for the Radiants fearing Sja-anat is that either that they feared she might able to corrupt their spren, or she could corrupt their spren, which would A: break their bond, or B: corrupt their surges or mind, giving Odium influence over them. I know that neither of these happened to Renarin, at least so far, but if option A is correct, then because he bonded a corrupt spren, instead of having his spren corrupted, the oaths and temperament required would not have been changed. If option B is correct, then Odium simply didn't know that Renarin was bonded to a corrupt spren, and we will see him begin to manipulate him in book 4.

This was my initial impression as well.