Defining realms

[Mushroom Catalog]

Realm definitions, as a according to me.

There are 3 realms, the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual. In its original state, the Physical consists entirely of matter and energy. It is arrayed in 4 dimensions, width, length, height, and time. Alternatively, in its original state, the Spiritual consists entirely of investiture and space/distance is irrelevant. Lastly, the Cognitive realm exists as a mixing area of sorts. It inherits some properties from the Physical and some from the Spiritual. Each realm is able to interact independently with others, including but not limited to transfer of investiture, matter or energy.

1) There are 3 realms, the Physical, Cognitive, and Spiritual.

All right, so this is probably fairly common knowledge, but it's included for completeness.

2) In its original state,

Original state: It is possible there was life and existence before Adonalsium. Or at least, it is not directly said there is not. For the purpose of this theory, the "original state" is either before Adonalsium, or at the exact instance the cosmere came into being, before anything was changed.

Spoiler

Volratho

Was there life in the cosmere before Adonalsium?

Brandon Sanderson

RAFO.

Skyward Chicago signing (Nov. 16, 2018)

3) the Physical consists entirely of matter and energy. It is arrayed in 4 dimensions, width, length, height, and time.

In the said original state, the Physical is composed entirely of Matter and Energy. It has all the properties of our Physical realm. There is no investiture manifesting in the Physical realm unless brought over by manipulation of investiture. It has all the dimensions and stuff that we have. (This thread is not about the number of dimensions and stuff. I know that there might be theoretically more, but you get the idea.)

4) Alternatively, in its original state, the Spiritual consists entirely of investiture and space/distance is irrelevant.

In it's original state, the Spiritual is only investiture. Manipulating investiture to create a perpendicularity can bring matter and energy through, that that gets real weird. It has no dimensions, but is "overlaid" with the Physical. Things can and do correspond between the two, but are distinct in each of their aspects. Space does not matter here, although the concept of time being irrelevant is strange at best. At the very least, the Spiritual realm can change, which implies time, but whatever. Time is strange in the spiritual realm.

Spoiler

Questioner

Mistborn travels to Roshar, what does he or she use to get Invested?

Brandon Sanderson

*pause* So. *pause* I think I've talked about this before on the 17th Shard, but I'm not 100% sure and so I don't want to anything right now, not knowing what I've said. But you can look it up. You can ask Peter. Hey Peter, have I talked about someone using-- Have I ever in an interview before talked about using metals... A Mistborn travels to Roshar and uses the metals there?

Peter Ahlstrom

I think that you have said that they could do it.

Brandon Sanderson

I said it.  Okay, so the thing about the metals you have to understand is the metals are a key, the metals are not magical themselves, except for specific ones. If I've already said that I can tell you, go to Roshar and you could use the metals that are there to power your Allomancy because the difference is in your soul and you're actually drawing directly from Preservation. Remember that on the Spiritual Realm, this is the big tidbit--they're listening. On the Spiritual Realm time, distance, and space are irrelevant. It's a place where time and space are compounded in one. So anything that exists on the Spiritual Realm, space doesn't matter for it.

Shadows of Self release party (Oct. 5, 2015)

5) Lastly, the Cognitive realm exists as a mixing area of sorts. It inherits some properties from the Physical and some from the Spiritual.

In its original state, the Cognitive was empty of all 3 components. It had no Investiture, matter, or energy. However, it has the possibility to have both, and they manifest strangely and unpredictably in completely predictable ways.

So then when Adonalsium and other beings start messing with stuff, it creates all sorts of things in the Cognitive realm. I would say that over time, as investiture gets manipulated through the Cognitive, things change in the Cognitive realm. 

6) Each realm is able to interact independently with others, including but not limited to transfer of investiture, matter or energy.

Things in the Physical can move to the Cognitive, and even to the Spiritual, although this will likely mess them up seriously. And vice versa. There are parts of each realm that can be manipulated through the others. But from Physical to Spiritual and vice versa, interactions have to go through the Cognitive, because it is the "middle" realm.

P.S. The "sun" light to planet explanation that Khriss gives may be incorrect. I think it is, as I don't think there is a source for everything. I think it just coexists.

P.P.S. This is the original state- after things change, the realms get parts of others mixed into them and we get what we see today of the realms.

Random related things:

Using Future Sight: Need to look into the Spiritual to get the full picture and be more accurate. This is why shards are better at it than people, though Taravangian did pretty well without it.

Investiture Cycle: I think this is concentrated in the Spiritual, though it deserves it's own thread.

Humans and other sentient species: They all have the innate ability to manipulate investiture through emotions and thought, which helps to shape the Cognitive. This is Intent.

 

Anyway, any thoughts? Do I even know what I'm talking about?

[+ILuvHats]

5 hours ago, Mushroom Catalog said:

Anyway, any thoughts? Do I even know what I'm talking about?

Yeah it looks like you know what you're talking about . I wouldn't say I understand the nuances of realmatics as well as some people on the forums, but what you put down looks pretty accurate to me.

I am curious why you think Khriss's analogy about the three realms is wrong. It is, after all, an analogy, and isn't a perfectly accurate representation. I think you're right in that the three realms coexist, and the spiritual realm isn't exactly the source of the physical realm. However, the spiritual realm basically contains the blueprints for the physical realm. And not only the physical realm as it is, but the past as well as all possible futures. While the physical realm can only exist in one state at a time, the spiritual realm exists in all possible states, simultaneously. So while the spiritual realm isn't responsible for the existence of the physical realm, it contains the seeds for everything that the physical realm is and could be. This is what the sunbeam metaphor is trying to get across. As for the cognitive realm, the idea that it is a ray of sunlight is meant to portray that it shares properties of the spiritual realm but is also a reflection of the physical realm, and thus can be thought of as a go-between between them.

Also, I get the impression that you think the realms originally existed in isolation, but then bled into one another. Personally, I think the three realms have always been codependent, and are incapable of existing separately from one another. They're each simply a different facet of reality, all flip sides of the same coin. 

[Honorless]

Hmm... add the Spiritual aspects of Fortune, Connection and Identity. The first two might just be due to time and space being one in the Spiritual and the latter might have to do with Spiritwebs

[+ILuvHats]

39 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Hmm... add the Spiritual aspects of Fortune, Connection and Identity. The first two might just be due to time and space being one in the Spiritual and the latter might have to do with Spiritwebs

Wait, why'd you group connection with Fortune? I'd think Connection would be more closely tied to sDNA in general. In fact, I recall one theory that a person's Identity was comprised of their unique orientation, number, and types of Connections. So Connections are a fundamental aspect of the Spiritual realm while Identity is refers to the Connections that make a person who they are and makes them distinct from everyone else. Not sure if this theory is correct or not, but because of it I've always closely associated Identity, Connection, and sDNA with each other, while Fortune seems like its own separate thing having to do with the oneness of the spiritual realm, as you mentioned.

[Honorless]

21 minutes ago, ILuvHats said:

Wait, why'd you group connection with Fortune? I'd think Connection would be more closely tied to sDNA in general. In fact, I recall one theory that a person's Identity was comprised of their unique orientation, number, and types of Connections. So Connections are a fundamental aspect of the Spiritual realm while Identity is refers to the Connections that make a person who they are and makes them distinct from everyone else. Not sure if this theory is correct or not, but because of it I've always closely associated Identity, Connection, and sDNA with each other, while Fortune seems like its own separate thing having to do with the oneness of the spiritual realm, as you mentioned.

I was thinking of what these Spiritual aspects actually mean. Connection might be a result of the fact that all of time-space is one in the Spiritual. But yeah I can also see it being grouped with Identity, doesn't really seem all that mutually exclusive. I mean we do see that one's land of origin is also part of their Connection.

Ah Fortune, I don't think it has to with any temporal shenanigans, otherwise there'd be so many questions. Futuresight has always been expressed mathematically, as calculations of probability not as exploitation of all time being one. I don't think that's what Brandon meant by that comment, otherwise time travel would be possible in the Cosmere, the Spiritual would be the Beyond since within it, the past or the future wouldn't be any different than the present and all possibilities would exist: boom! Multiverse! Think of that comment in terms of the time-Space Continuum though, and it makes sense. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Honorless

[Calderis]

26 minutes ago, Honorless said:

Ah Fortune, I don't think it has to with any temporal shenanigans, otherwise there'd be so many questions. Futuresight has always been expressed mathematically, as calculations of probability not as exploitation of all time being one. I don't think that's what Brandon meant by that comment, otherwise time travel would be possible in the Cosmere, the Spiritual could be the Beyond since in it the past wouldn't be any different than the present and all possibilities would exist: boom! Multiverse! Think of that comment in terms of the time-Space Continuum though, and it makes sense. 

Agreed. Which is is why I've come to see the Spiritual as a realm that's primarily information. Time is still significant, but only in the way that it is relevant to the other realms. Same as location. 

There's a reason that I call the Spiritual the source code of reality. 

I tend to look at all of the "spiritual properties" as fairly distinct though. 

Fortune seems seems to plot out the paths of probability. 

Connection isn't isn't Investiture itself, but more like a "force" that acts on Investiture. 

Identity appears to be something separate from the way we use it. It's not personality but more of a Spiritual ID tag that designates that "this is a part of/stems from this entity" 

And Investiture is... Well, the substance of everything at its most fundamental level. 

So the way that I've tended to look at the structure of the Spiritual is as follows. 

Investiture is the medium upon which all of the information of the Spiritual is written. Connection is the vector by which all things are written into it, be it between people, places, events, times, etc, etc. Identity is the marker that designates what is encompassed and produced by a spiritweb... And Fortune... Is weird. 

As to the origin of the realms... 

Quote

Questioner

I want to ask how were the Realms created and does their creation have anything to do with Adonalsium and the Shattering?

Brandon Sanderson

So, good question. The Realms predate the Shattering of Adonalsium and are part of the fundamental physics of the cosmere. So they would have been created at the equivalent of the cosmere Big Bang when time was created and things like that.

ICon 2019 (Oct. 15, 2019)

 

[Mushroom Catalog]

16 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

I am curious why you think Khriss's analogy about the three realms is wrong. It is, after all, an analogy, and isn't a perfectly accurate representation. I think you're right in that the three realms coexist, and the spiritual realm isn't exactly the source of the physical realm. However, the spiritual realm basically contains the blueprints for the physical realm. And not only the physical realm as it is, but the past as well as all possible futures. While the physical realm can only exist in one state at a time, the spiritual realm exists in all possible states, simultaneously. So while the spiritual realm isn't responsible for the existence of the physical realm, it contains the seeds for everything that the physical realm is and could be. This is what the sunbeam metaphor is trying to get across. As for the cognitive realm, the idea that it is a ray of sunlight is meant to portray that it shares properties of the spiritual realm but is also a reflection of the physical realm, and thus can be thought of as a go-between between them.

Mostly, I just don't like that it portrays the Spiritual as the origin of everything. I think that they coexist and work together to produce what we see, as opposed to the Spiritual having "rock 177-bcd" at position x and y. I think the Spiritual just has other properties. Things like inertia and speed are contained in mass and energy, and connection is contained in Investiture.

13 hours ago, Calderis said:

There's a reason that I call the Spiritual the source code of reality.

I don't feel there is a need for a "source code" or a basis for the Physical aside from the Physical. I think they both just exist by themselves, but can interact, in the same way that 2 people do. They are separate, but can create new effects when they interact. The Spiritual can and does have aspects of things that are defined there, but does not need to define position, velocity, etc, as those are defined in the Physical. I think things exist where they do because they exist where they do. I am in a chair because I am in a chair.

As for Identity, I think that it is some Spiritual aspect defined by Investiture, and is resistant to change, which is why getting cut won't affect your Identity for a long time. Like Kal's brands. They stay because he has effectively imprinted them on his Identity.

I agree that Connection is a property of Investiture, like inertia is property of matter. That sort of thing.

16 hours ago, ILuvHats said:

Also, I get the impression that you think the realms originally existed in isolation, but then bled into one another. Personally, I think the three realms have always been codependent, and are incapable of existing separately from one another. They're each simply a different facet of reality, all flip sides of the same coin.

I think they were more independent, but only because nobody was shoving things around and between realms. I didn't mean to convey that... I do like and agree the coin analogy and think that that was how it always was.

[Quantus]

7 minutes ago, Mushroom Catalog said:

Mostly, I just don't like that it portrays the Spiritual as the origin of everything. I think that they coexist and work together to produce what we see, as opposed to the Spiritual having "rock 177-bcd" at position x and y. I think the Spiritual just has other properties. Things like inertia and speed are contained in mass and energy, and connection is contained in Investiture.

Well, that is how Leras described it, and several WOB's seem to support that interpretation. There's some feedback, sure, like how your Cognitive Aspect can alter/impact your Spiritual Ideal state (ie. with healing), but in most instances it seems like the Spiritual Realm is dictating the Cosmere Reality.  

 

Quote

 

Questioner

Is there a limit to the amount of useful energy that can be extracted from an end-neutral system? Like Skimmers on a Terris wheel on opposite sides.

Brandon Sanderson

So... Skimmers by making their weight lighter, spinning the thing around, and things and then--

 

Questioner

You got one on opposite sides--

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah you could totally do this. In my mind, the way I work this out is that it's no more-- having people do it and things like this-- yeah you could totally do that. The power for making this happen, you are drawing Spiritual energy into the Physical plane can power your motor. It's not power-negative, it's changing forms.

But in realistic terms that would be so much less cost-effective than other methods because Allomancers are expensive, but yeah you could just keep that going.

Questioner

Same with Lifeless? Telling them to push a wheel around?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the sustenance for life is coming directly from the Spiritual plane. So if you remove that, it wouldn't work. The whole idea from this is that energy is getting recycled back into the Spiritual plane when people are dying and things like that, so...

Shadows of Self San Francisco signing (Oct. 9, 2015)

 

 

 

Quote

 

Questioner

How do states of matter affect how things look in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms?

Brandon Sanderson

So, generally, how people perceive something is very important to the reflection in the Cognitive Realm, and so the physical state of matter is going to be involved in that, but generally, it flows the other direction from the Spiritual Realm.

Questioner

Do the forms of Investiture that we've seen, Stormlight, metals, Shardpools, do the fact that those happen in general the same types of states of matter, all physical, solid, is kinda going to be like metal for Investiture?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, that is generally the way it will be.

Oathbringer Portland signing (Nov. 16, 2017)

 

 

[Mushroom Catalog]

20 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Well, that is how Leras described it, and several WOB's seem to support that interpretation. There's some feedback, sure, like how your Cognitive Aspect can alter/impact your Spiritual Ideal state (ie. with healing), but in most instances it seems like the Spiritual Realm is dictating the Cosmere Reality. 

I don't actually remember what Leras says. As for feedback, I think it is more just the natural way the things happening affect more than one realm.

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Questioner

Same with Lifeless? Telling them to push a wheel around?

Brandon Sanderson

Yeah, the sustenance for life is coming directly from the Spiritual plane. So if you remove that, it wouldn't work. The whole idea from this is that energy is getting recycled back into the Spiritual plane when people are dying and things like that, so...

With the lifeless I think that the Investiture is being pulled from the Spiritual realm to sustain the Lifeless. This is just the nature of life- it needs investiture to function - Fish have investiture, people have investiture, animals have investiture, ect. We see this in the Roshar Cognitive.

5 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Questioner

How do states of matter affect how things look in the Cognitive and Spiritual Realms?

Brandon Sanderson

So, generally, how people perceive something is very important to the reflection in the Cognitive Realm, and so the physical state of matter is going to be involved in that, but generally, it flows the other direction from the Spiritual Realm.

Just to clarify- This quote seems to say that the Cognitive aspect is defined by the Spiritual.

My reasoning: A Spiritual Identity is influenced, or perhaps created, by the thoughts in the Physical realm. This in turn, gets shown in the Cognitive, which is what we see. So, after various changes, the Cognitive aspect is at least partially influenced by the thoughts in the Physical.

Basically, I don't think any one realm is the origin for what we see- What eventually exists is created by interactions between all 3 realms. Humans have thought and innate investiture and mass and energy. They have an aspect in all 3 realms in which changes in one can influence each of the others, or they may not.

[Calderis]

The realms are interconnected and interdependent. They're also hierarchal. If something exists to n the Physical, it exists in all three realms. There are things that exist in the Cognitive and have Spiritual aspects that don't exist in the Physical. And though we haven't seen any in Canon, we've been told that there are things that are purely Spiritual. 

1 hour ago, Mushroom Catalog said:

I don't feel there is a need for a "source code" or a basis for the Physical aside from the Physical. I think they both just exist by themselves, but can interact, in the same way that 2 people do. They are separate, but can create new effects when they interact. The Spiritual can and does have aspects of things that are defined there, but does not need to define position, velocity, etc, as those are defined in the Physical. I think things exist where they do because they exist where they do. I am in a chair because I am in a chair.

I think this runs counter to the things that Brandon has told us about the way that history and substance and everything are recorded in the Spiritual. How would your Spirit know your age or location or where you were born if none of those things mattered there? 

1 hour ago, Mushroom Catalog said:

As for Identity, I think that it is some Spiritual aspect defined by Investiture, and is resistant to change, which is why getting cut won't affect your Identity for a long time. Like Kal's brands. They stay because he has effectively imprinted them on his Identity.

And I don't t think that Identity and self perception are the same thing at all. 

1 hour ago, Mushroom Catalog said:

I don't actually remember what Leras says

The sunbeam. Analogy is Leras'. 

For a good example of how the Spiritual is at the root of the hierarchy, you really need look no further than the Koloss. You take a few chunks of raw Spiritual information and shove them into the Spiritual Aspect of a person. As a result, both the Physical and Cognitive are changed. 

This works also when looking at the way that the Spiritual can be changed by the Cognitive and can then change the Physical in the case of gender identity. Self perception slowly rewrites the Spiritual... But it take an influx of Investiture into the Spiritual Aspect to then make that a reality in the Physical.

Changes are not automatic. Investiture is required to enact changes because there is a degree of separation that, like with a perpendicularity bring the realms together, things need pressure to force a realignment or to resist the natural progression of time (like atium Feruchemy). 

It's all a complicated mess... But

Unpublished Dragonsteel spoilers. 

Spoiler

Even in Dragonsteel, the Tzai warriors would destroy physical matter by channeling a strike to destroy the Spiritual which in turn destroyed the Physical. 

 

[Mushroom Catalog]

@Calderis

I looked back at the thread, and I actually agree with most of what you're saying.

The only thing is how specific the Spiritual realm is. Do you think it functions as a framework that the other Realms build off of, or an exact outline where, say, molecule 11929-b has an exact position 39393, 2929191, 3030, etc, recorded in the Spiritual?

With the framework, the Spiritual would have the basis for everything, and get more and more detailed with information also stored in other realms as physics kind of stuff.

With the exact outline, it would be more like the Spiritual has mass amounts of data, performs calculations, and show it, and feedback occurs because beings with sentience modify other parts of the outline. It would stay the same amount of specific as it moves to the Cognitive, then Physical.

Just curious to see what you think, I'm not really sure myself.

[Calderis]

@Mushroom Catalog I think it's more complicated than that even. I think with the way Fortune and Gold Allomancy works, the Spiritual contains that information for all possible ways that events could, and could have been.

It doesn't just have the position of what is, but all possibilities that ever were, are, and could be. 

Edited November 20, 2019 by Calderis

[Mushroom Catalog]

Allright, that could make sense. Thanks!