Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 11, 2019 Author Posted November 11, 2019 1 hour ago, Karger said: Or at least less developed. I do think one of them will die though. Hopefully Iyatil then. I dont have anything against her, but I am a fan of Mraize. And Brandon whacked Amaram and Graves, so I think he can allow my favorite villains a break for SA4.
Eugenides Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 4 hours ago, Karger said: I personally think something more interesting will happen here. Maybe treachery that leads them to serving Odium or perhaps a fragmentation into several religions. However I don't think any religion on earth has just collapsed and I don't think sandman will do it either. Plus, if the Vorin church is destroyed, then would Jasnah just become normal, and not seen as a heretic? I feel like that conflict is essentially one of the main things that defines her, and I am guessing she will have a book later on.
Pathfinder Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 21 minutes ago, Eugenides said: Plus, if the Vorin church is destroyed, then would Jasnah just become normal, and not seen as a heretic? I feel like that conflict is essentially one of the main things that defines her, and I am guessing she will have a book later on. The institution may be able to be destroyed, but the cultural impact would take time to change. Jasnah runs counter to Vorinism not only on a religious level as an Athiest, but she also disagrees with the separation of of "Arts" into masculine and feminine disciplines. Breaking the society and culture out of that will take time. So I believe even if the Vorin church was annihilated, Jasnah would still be seen as a cultural revolutionary
Karger he/him Posted November 11, 2019 Posted November 11, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Toaster Retribution said: Hopefully Iyatil then. I dont have anything against her, but I am a fan of Mraize. And Brandon whacked Amaram and Graves, so I think he can allow my favorite villains a break for SA4. Agreed. Or maybe have Iyatil play the two of them (Shallan and Mraize)against each other as a test. We could learn a lot about them both and one of them will die. 1 hour ago, Eugenides said: Plus, if the Vorin church is destroyed, then would Jasnah just become normal, and not seen as a heretic? I feel like that conflict is essentially one of the main things that defines her, and I am guessing she will have a book later on. 40 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The institution may be able to be destroyed, but the cultural impact would take time to change. Jasnah runs counter to Vorinism not only on a religious level as an Athiest, but she also disagrees with the separation of of "Arts" into masculine and feminine disciplines. Breaking the society and culture out of that will take time. So I believe even if the Vorin church was annihilated, Jasnah would still be seen as a cultural revolutionary I do think that you are overstating Jasnah's public stances on the role of women in the modern world. Still I find myself doubting we have anything to be worried about on this front anyway so it is kind of a moot point. Edited November 11, 2019 by Karger
Pathfinder Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Karger said: I do think that you are overstating Jasnah's public stances on the role of women in the modern world. Still I find myself doubting we have anything to be worried about on this front anyway so it is kind of a moot point. In the book she is quoted on writing a paper on a womans role in the world. That women should be able to chose to go beyond house work, or be able to do house work if it pleases them. That she does not want to be misconstrued to be saying that house work is something to be looked down upon. It is not. Just that a woman should be able to choose. I'll come up with the quote later Words of Radiance page 772 (shallan is reading a book by Jasnah) "What is a woman’s place in this modern world? Jasnah Kholin’s words read. I rebel against this question, though so many of my peers ask it. The inherent bias in the inquiry seems invisible to so many of them. They consider themselves progressive because they are willing to challenge many of the assumptions of the past. They ignore the greater assumption—that a “place” for women must be defined and set forth to begin with. Half of the population must somehow be reduced to the role arrived at by a single conversation. No matter how broad that role is, it will be—by nature—a reduction from the infinite variety that is womanhood. I say that there is no role for women—there is, instead, a role for each woman, and she must make it for herself. For some, it will be the role of scholar; for others, it will be the role of wife. For others, it will be both. For yet others, it will be neither. Do not mistake me in assuming I value one woman’s role above another. My point is not to stratify our society—we have done that far too well already—my point is to diversify our discourse. A woman’s strength should not be in her role, whatever she chooses it to be, but in the power to choose that role. It is amazing to me that I even have to make this point, as I see it as the very foundation of our conversation." Edited November 12, 2019 by Pathfinder
Karger he/him Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Words of Radiance page 772 (shallan is reading a book by Jasnah) I could point out that she only explicit mentions the roles of scholar and wife both of which are traditional vorin roles for women but again the point is moot since we all agree this is not going to happen.
twenty second of the sun Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 (edited) You the reader will be mistaken for a herald by Moash and killed in a dark alley. This of course will take place during the final interlude/ the epilogue . Edited February 6, 2020 by twenty second of the sun grammar 1
Pathfinder Posted November 12, 2019 Posted November 12, 2019 12 hours ago, Karger said: I could point out that she only explicit mentions the roles of scholar and wife both of which are traditional vorin roles for women The same quote includes: "that a “place” for women must be defined and set forth to begin with. Half of the population must somehow be reduced to the role arrived at by a single conversation. No matter how broad that role is, it will be—by nature—a reduction from the infinite variety that is womanhood. I say that there is no role for women—there is, instead, a role for each woman, and she must make it for herself. For some, it will be the role of scholar; for others, it will be the role of wife. For others, it will be both. For yet others, it will be neither. Do not mistake me in assuming I value one woman’s role above another. My point is not to stratify our society—we have done that far too well already—my point is to diversify our discourse. A woman’s strength should not be in her role, whatever she chooses it to be, but in the power to choose that role." Looks like she is saying a woman should be able to choose any role. She just used two (scholar and wife) as two examples. She states a woman could choose neither, and do something completely different. Vorinism has stratified their society. Jasnah is saying a woman should be able to choose. 12 hours ago, Karger said: but again the point is moot since we all agree this is not going to happen. Not to be nitpicky, but I do not see everyone agreeing with you on that. You responded to Config that you do not see that coming up. Eugenides then responded that if the Vorin Church was destroyed, then Jasnah would not have that conflict. I responded that based on what I read of the book, Jasnah is not directly opposed to Vorinism. She is accepting of all religions. What she is opposed to is the stratification, and limitation the Vorin religion has imposed on the culture and society. That it tries to prevent questions. That it forces people into roles that they would not other wise have chosen. So even if the Vorin Church was destroyed, the systemic problems in the culture and society would still prevail, and need to be over come. Which would to me, still be a conflict for Jasnah.
bxcnch he/him Posted November 13, 2019 Posted November 13, 2019 I think Nale will die in SA 4 or maybe in the first half of SA 5. When Odium and Dalinar are talking for the first time, Nale and the Skybreakers are Odium's best example of a world without passion, as Honor would have wanted it to be. Nale also explicitly says that he thinks that the singers are the legitimate rulers of Roshar and that's why he changes sides. He is fighting for the singers, not Odium. And with Venli as a radiant, I see a possible singer revolution happening. Nale will fight for Odium - and Odium, being ressourceful, will keep him as a tool until the other heralds are dead. Nale will become increasingly uncooperative until Odium eventually decides that he has become a risk and kills Nale. Most Skybreakers will suddenly be left without their external moral compass, be unable to make any real decisions and then Szeth will pick up the role, as one of the most powerful Skybreakers with a well-functioning external moral code (i.e. Dalinar). That is obviously all just speculation, and I really think it's almost impossible to predict the plot twists in a Sanderson series, but we already know Szeth is going to become a major character in SA 5 and if he acquired the leadership of the Skybreakers that would be a very interesting development. Furthermore, Nale is living on borrowed time since Odium wants to destroy the Oathpact. Besides, the fact that a lot of Skybreakers have made an Oath to follow Nale seems like it could be foreshadowing something like this. Also, I can really see Szeth and the Skybreakers having some sort of "Gwaihir-moment" in one of the later books.
Toaster Retribution he/him Posted November 14, 2019 Author Posted November 14, 2019 (edited) On 2019-11-13 at 10:34 AM, bxcnch said: most powerful Skybreakers with a well-functioning external moral code (i.e. Dalinar) Its hilarious that the the most reasonable moral code a Skybreaker has chosen is the one represented by an ex-genocidal tyrant who accidentally burned his wife. You gotta love the Skybreakers. Edited November 14, 2019 by Toaster Retribution 1
bxcnch he/him Posted November 14, 2019 Posted November 14, 2019 1 hour ago, Toaster Retribution said: Its hilarious that the the most reasonable moral code a Skybreaker has chosen is the one represented by an ex-genocidal tyrant who accidentally burned his wife. You gotta love the Skybreakers. ...especially because said ex-genocidal tyrant's moral code is actually taken from an obscure centuries-old book of koans that he couldn't even read until recently. Just imagine what moral decision in the Szeth-Dalinar hierarchy must look like. "This Taravangian guy looks evil, let's kill him". "Master Dalinar, my sword wants to know if this man is evil" "Hmmmm... He is just doing what he thinks is right. I ... am not sure. Wait, I need to consult the Word of Kings on that." 3
Winds Alight she/her Posted November 14, 2019 Posted November 14, 2019 I can only repeat what other, smarter people than me have already said: These books are wild. They are WILD.
Config2 Posted November 15, 2019 Posted November 15, 2019 23 hours ago, bxcnch said: ...especially because said ex-genocidal tyrant's moral code is actually taken from an obscure centuries-old book of koans that he couldn't even read until recently. Just imagine what moral decision in the Szeth-Dalinar hierarchy must look like. "This Taravangian guy looks evil, let's kill him". "Master Dalinar, my sword wants to know if this man is evil" "Hmmmm... He is just doing what he thinks is right. I ... am not sure. Wait, I need to consult the Word of Kings on that." I legitimately laughed at this. On 11/11/2019 at 10:05 PM, twenty second of the sun said: You the reader will be mistaken for a herald by Moash and killed inside a dark alley. This of course will take place during the final interlude/ the epilogue . Also laughed at this. On 11/11/2019 at 2:05 PM, Toaster Retribution said: I dont think this will happen. I feel like Brandon has done too much foreshadowing on Mraizes importance. He hasnt revealed his true name, he gives him an interesting personality, he has the whole Hoid-comparison thing, and is also mentioned by Adrotagia in relation to the Diagram. It would be a waste of Mraizes build-up and air of mystery to off him in favor of Iyatil, who is a less interesting character in my opinion. I'm at about a 25% about it happening in SA4. I think it is very likely it will happen eventually. The reasoning about him being replaced with Iyatil is just a possibility though, or a guess at what might happen if he is killed off. On 11/11/2019 at 5:09 PM, Eugenides said: Plus, if the Vorin church is destroyed, then would Jasnah just become normal, and not seen as a heretic? I feel like that conflict is essentially one of the main things that defines her, and I am guessing she will have a book later on. I'm just talking about the institution as others have mentioned. The faith that individual people have is inherently unassailable. It can be subverted or damaged indirectly however. That would be an effect of having the institution destroyed, just like if the Vatican was destroyed tomorrow. Some people would struggle with their faith if that happened. As for Jasnah, its a talking point for her, but it is not a character trait. Her and Dalinar have a whole conversation on how lack of faith is not what defines her. The cultural aspect, as @Pathfinder mentioned, would still be in place as well.
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