Shards after the death of the bearer

[Hakedohn]

My question is what happens to shards after the death of the radiant that was linked to them. Do they remain as sword and plate or do they fade to their spren form. 

 

The reason I ask is if Helaran Davar was a skybreaker, was his shards given to him or were they forged via the spren connection? If they were caused by connection would they remain after the death of the bear?

 

[RShara]

Helaran wasn't a surgebinder yet. He was an acolyte, but hadn't earned a spren (which is done ~the 3rd Ideal for the Skybreakers).

Regular dead Shards drop for the next person to pick up. Spren seem to be able to transition back to the Cognitive Realm and choose a new bondmate. Or perhaps are passed on to a successor. Sometimes, perhaps only when the Radiant hasn't quite bonded yet or is just on the cusp of bonding, the spren might get stranded in the Physical, like Elhokar's spren did.

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

 

Regular dead Shards drop for the next person to pick up. Spren seem to be able to transition back to the Cognitive Realm and choose a new bondmate.

Do we realy know this?  Syl says that the Stormfather found her asleep but that could technically have been in the physical realm.

[RShara]

Just now, Karger said:

Do we realy know this?  Syl says that the Stormfather found her asleep but that could technically have been in the physical realm.

I would doubt it was in the Physical Realm, but either way, being stranded in the Physical would mean losing their sapience, and Brandon's said that the death of a Radiant doesn't substantially harm the spren, other than emotionally, like the loss of a close friend or loved one.

[Karger]

4 minutes ago, RShara said:

I would doubt it was in the Physical Realm, but either way, being stranded in the Physical would mean losing their sapience, and Brandon's said that the death of a Radiant doesn't substantially harm the spren, other than emotionally, like the loss of a close friend or loved one.

The loosing their sapience is an effect of being in the physical realm not of loosing their radiant.  So that WoB may not apply.  Also the Stormfather may be able to repair that kind of damage.  He did "wake up" Syl somehow after all.

Edited October 2, 2019 by Karger

[RShara]

Just now, Karger said:

The loosing their sapience is an effect of being in the physical realm not of loosing their radiant.  So that WoB may not apply.

Spren consider losing their minds to be dying. And without being bonded to a person, they lose their sapience. And Brandon said that the Radiant dying doesn't damage the spren. Ergo, Radiant dying doesn't strand them in the PR without a bondmate.

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

To the spren, is becoming mindless the same as death?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

They consider it as such.

Words of Radiance San Diego signing (March 4, 2014)

 

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Questioner

After a spren has been bonded, what happens if the person it's bonded with dies?

Brandon Sanderson

If the person they are bonded with dies, it is an emotional event for the spren, but not a damaging event. As long as their oaths were not <broken>.

Argent

Kind of like if a friend dies?

Brandon Sanderson

Maybe a little more personal than that.

Questioner

I guess Helaran was not bonded to a spren then?

Brandon Sanderson

And why do you say that?

Questioner

I was looking at this line here and saw that his [Blade] had a gemstone at the bottom, so that was a clue.

Brandon Sanderson

That is a very good clue, yes.

Words of Radiance Chicago signing (March 22, 2014)

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Questioner

Can spren die?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes, spren can die.

Questioner

Okay, so Syl, she's been around for at least a few thousand years, right?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

How does she forget her memories? Is it in connection to humans that makes it so she remembers things?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes.

Questioner

And she's what, a Bonding Spren?

Brandon Sanderson

You will find out. She's an Honorspren, but you will find out.

Zas

Is that bond the Nahel bond?

Brandon Sanderson

There is a certain amount of... It is a symbiotic bond that is gained by Syl. And things gained by the person bonding. And the stronger presence in the physical realm, and the ability to think better in the physical realm is a part of that bond. She is mostly getting [something] of the physical realm. Without the bond, it is very hard for her to think in this world.

Questioner

Because she's windspren?

Brandon Sanderson

That's part of it. That's part of something else.

Orem signing (Sept. 22, 2012)

 

[Aon Tia]

22 minutes ago, Hakedohn said:

My question is what happens to shards after the death of the radiant that was linked to them. Do they remain as sword and plate or do they fade to their spren form. 

 

The reason I ask is if Helaran Davar was a skybreaker, was his shards given to him or were they forged via the spren connection? If they were caused by connection would they remain after the death of the bear?

 

Helaran was not a surgebinder and he was probably at even less than squire stage or he would have healed. He was given those shards by sky breakers. They were dead spren

when a normal nahel bond breaks due to the death of a radiant, the spren are not affected much and they move on to the next potential KR. For instance wyndle moved from that cobbler to lift fairly easily with very little problem I think. 

Syl herself says that she was more jolted by the death of her first KR than other spren because she was relatively new to the bond and hence inexperienced and he probably died may be immediately after forming the bond. may be 

also I believe they remain in the physical realm coz syl said I was sleeping and stormfather found me years and years later and brought me back. And cryptic of elhokar too it seems was stuck in kholinar palace.

[Karger]

15 minutes ago, RShara said:

Spren consider losing their minds to be dying. And without being bonded to a person, they lose their sapience. And Brandon said that the Radiant dying doesn't damage the spren. Ergo, Radiant dying doesn't strand them in the PR without a bondmate.

But what happened to Syl was temporary and she says asleep.  Spren don't sleep.  Some spren (like Pattern) consider sleep to be death only temporary.  Ergo Syl was in the physical realm and "died" as a result of exposure there without a bond.

[RShara]

2 minutes ago, Karger said:

But what happened to Syl was temporary and she says asleep.  Spren don't sleep.  Some spren (like Pattern) consider sleep to be death only temporary.  Ergo Syl was in the physical realm and "died" as a result of exposure there without a bond.

Her being emotionally traumatized to the point of being senseless does not equal her being stuck in the Physical Realm. I'm not saying she was or she wasn't. I'm saying there's no proof that she was stuck in the PR.

It's possible that some particular types of Radiant deaths can strand the spren in the PR, but I really doubt that most spren get stranded after their Knight dies.

Let's just agree to disagree.

Edited October 2, 2019 by RShara

[Karger]

49 minutes ago, RShara said:

Spren consider losing their minds to be dying. And without being bonded to a person, they lose their sapience. And Brandon said that the Radiant dying doesn't damage the spren. Ergo, Radiant dying doesn't strand them in the PR without a bondmate.

32 minutes ago, Karger said:

What happened to Syl was temporary and she says asleep.  Spren don't sleep.  Some spren (like Pattern) consider sleep to be death only temporary.  Ergo Syl was in the physical realm and "died" as a result of exposure there without a bond.

My point was similar reasoning methods could derive different conclusions given the same information.  I agree that we can't yet know without asking Brandon

[Aon Tia]

2 hours ago, RShara said:

Her being emotionally traumatized to the point of being senseless does not equal her being stuck in the Physical Realm. I'm not saying she was or she wasn't. I'm saying there's no proof that she was stuck in the PR.

It's possible that some particular types of Radiant deaths can strand the spren in the PR, but I really doubt that most spren get stranded after their Knight dies.

Let's just agree to disagree.

But if she was stranded in PR, she says she was asleep which I think could mean that she was senseless as you point here, it is also mentioned that stormfather could not find her and assumed that she had died too, 

then could it be that she had become a wind spren? She just roamed around Roshar? But should not stormfather be able to find her then? 

Or was she actually sleeping somewhere either in PR or CR? Like pattern? Where has he been since shallan relapsed? Had he retreated into CR? Or he was locked in the safe?

[LopentheHerdazian]

I think that elhokars spren may have been trapped in physical realm because of chosen in CR. As it seemed as if it was hiding.

Also do we know that windle was the cobblers spren. I assumed not because windle appears differently. I assumed that it was the spren that later bonded venli. I'm guessing a light spren.

I'm also guessing as it's heavily hinted at that the light spren is the daughter of the captain of the ship in OB

[RShara]

17 hours ago, The traveller said:

when a normal nahel bond breaks due to the death of a radiant, the spren are not affected much and they move on to the next potential KR. For instance wyndle moved from that cobbler to lift fairly easily with very little problem I think. 

 

Just now, LopentheHerdazian said:

I think that elhokars spren may have been trapped in physical realm because of chosen in CR. As it seemed as if it was hiding.

Also do we know that windle was the cobblers spren. I assumed not because windle appears differently. I assumed that it was the spren that later bonded venli. I'm guessing a light spren.

I'm also guessing as it's heavily hinted at that the light spren is the daughter of the captain of the ship in OB

Good point. I didn't see this part before. The cobbler, Ym, was bonded to a Truthwatcher spren, not Wyndle. He had Regrowth, so it was either Edgedancer or Truthwatcher. The spren he describes doesn't look anything like Wyndle, but does match the descriptions of the Truthwatcher spren.

Venli is bonded to a Willshaper spren, not a Truthwatcher spren. And yes, it's heavily implied that Timbre is Ico's daughter.

[Karger]

2 minutes ago, LopentheHerdazian said:

because of chosen in CR

He almost swore the oath in the physical realm where he died.

2 minutes ago, LopentheHerdazian said:

Also do we know that windle was the cobblers spren

No he was not.  Wyndle was thinking a bonding a cobbler but the ring chose Lift instead.  The cobbler's spren was a Truthwatcher's spren

14 hours ago, The traveller said:

17 hours ago, RShara said:

 

But if she was stranded in PR, she says she was asleep which I think could mean that she was senseless as you point here, it is also mentioned that stormfather could not find her and assumed that she had died too, 

Well admittedly she was in the midst of a massacre.

Just now, RShara said:

Venli is bonded to a Willshaper spren, not a Truthwatcher spren. And yes, it's heavily implied that Timbre is Ico's daughter.

Ninjad(am I spelling correctly?)

[LopentheHerdazian]

That's strange since Ym's spren wasnt described as a reflection of a liquid or whatever, how truthwatcher spren were described.

[RShara]

22 minutes ago, LopentheHerdazian said:

That's strange since Ym's spren wasnt described as a reflection of a liquid or whatever, how truthwatcher spren were described.

The descriptions we have of the two Truthwatcher spren do match.

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Ym brushed wooden scraps off the bench for later sweeping, then set the last on the bench near the spren. It shied away, like a reflection off a mirror—translucent, really just a shimmer of light.

He withdrew his hand and waited. The spren inched forward—tentative, like a cremling creeping out of its crack after a storm. It stopped, and light grew upward from it in the shape of tiny sprouts. Such an odd sight.

And The Stump's spren.

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I have a description for you, finally, Jasnah, another said. We’ve convinced the Radiant that Lift found in Yeddaw to visit Azimir. Though she has not yet arrived, you can find sketches of her spren companion here. It looks like the shimmer you see on a wall when you shine light through a crystal.

Plus Wyndle says he's the only one that was sent.

Edited October 3, 2019 by RShara

[Aon Tia]

17 hours ago, RShara said:

 

Good point. I didn't see this part before. The cobbler, Ym, was bonded to a Truthwatcher spren, not Wyndle. He had Regrowth, so it was either Edgedancer or Truthwatcher. The spren he describes doesn't look anything like Wyndle, but does match the descriptions of the Truthwatcher spren.

I thought it is wyndle because he mentions it specifically in edgedancer, Ch. 4:

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did you know we were considering bonding this nice cobbler man instead of you? A very kindly man who took care of children. i could have lived quietly, helping him, making shoes. I could have done an entire display of shoes!

plus the cobbler had regrowth. Although he does not say that he had and that person died... hmm

17 hours ago, Karger said:

No he was not.  Wyndle was thinking a bonding a cobbler but the ring chose Lift instead.  The cobbler's spren was a Truthwatcher's spre

i thought that he died and that is why wyndle then moved onto Lift.

too much coincidence is it not that two spren were thinking of bonding him from two different orders and both were going to grant him regrowth?

@RShara

thanx for the quote that clears it for me. 

where was the cobbler living? was he Azish too? Could it be that his spren then moved onto bond stump? Can they move onto the next person so quickly? Is it a little more difficult if your radiant is higher level because the strength of the bond increases as you move up?

17 hours ago, Karger said:

Well admittedly she was in the midst of a massacre

what massacre? Knight that she was bonded to was old. he may have died of natural reasons. i do not remember her mentioning any massacres. and how is this relevant? stormfather could not find her for thousands of years, how is any massacre that might have killed her radiant relevant to her not being found, please explain? 

 

[Karger]

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

i thought that he died and that is why wyndle then moved onto Lift.

too much coincidence is it not that two spren were thinking of bonding him from two different orders and both were going to grant him regrowth?

Ted Herman (paraphrased)

Ym is confirmed to not be an Edgedancer. Does that mean that he would have become a Truthwatcher?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

where was the cobbler living? was he Azish too?

He was from Iri.  He even says so several times and he preaches the Iri religion.

1 hour ago, The traveller said:

what massacre? Knight that she was bonded to was old. he may have died of natural reasons. i do not remember her mentioning any massacres

I was talking about the Recreance that happened shortly afterward.  Amidst all the dead spren you might have a hard time noticing one particular spren was not dead only in a comma. 

[Aon Tia]

@Karger Cool thanx. And about the interlude, like i said i need to read it again. 

[RShara]

4 hours ago, The traveller said:

I thought it is wyndle because he mentions it specifically in edgedancer, Ch. 4:

plus the cobbler had regrowth. Although he does not say that he had and that person died... hmm

i thought that he died and that is why wyndle then moved onto Lift.

too much coincidence is it not that two spren were thinking of bonding him from two different orders and both were going to grant him regrowth?

@RShara

thanx for the quote that clears it for me. 

where was the cobbler living? was he Azish too? Could it be that his spren then moved onto bond stump? Can they move onto the next person so quickly? Is it a little more difficult if your radiant is higher level because the strength of the bond increases as you move up?

what massacre? Knight that she was bonded to was old. he may have died of natural reasons. i do not remember her mentioning any massacres. and how is this relevant? stormfather could not find her for thousands of years, how is any massacre that might have killed her radiant relevant to her not being found, please explain? 

 

Wyndle says he could have bonded to a cobbler, not that he did. He didn't. The cobbler was bonded to a Truthwatcher spren because, as you said, he has Regrowth, but his spren very clearly was not Wyndle or a cultivationspren.

Ym was Iriali, living in Iri.

[Aon Tia]

Yup your quote of him describing his spren clears that up. Thanx @RShara