Compounding Savantism (read the first post before voting)

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

I'd like to start off by saying I'm not trying to bash on @Calderis; I'm totally happy agreeing to disagree.  I would like to hear others thoughts though.  In short I think it is possible and Calderis thinks it isn't. Here's both our arguments.

19 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

The easiest solution to this question can be easily answered when you realize Miles is a savant. When you compound you are making a new allomantic metal so just like  Spook’s constant tin Mile’s constant gold has caused savantism. As for how it would effect him i’d suspect it’s like a pewterarm but much worse.

Quantas covered the other points quite well.

Edit: to clarify he isn’t a F-savant but he is a A-savant because he burns so much charged gold to store in his metalminds

 

17 hours ago, Calderis said:

I still disagree. 

He's not an A-gold savant, because he doesn't use that often, and his gold is no different than when we see Vin use it. 

He's not an F-gold savant, as Brandon says he hasn't written one if those. 

Compounding does essentially create a new allomantic metal... Which produces a feruchemical trait. Savantism is an effect of the power produced, so a compounder should become a Savant of the feruchemical power. 

 

2 hours ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

With respect, savantism is a result of too much investiture overcharging your system. You don’t have to worry about it with Feruchemy because that investiture is coming from your own body, just at different tunes and rates. Compounding fuels Feruchemy with allomancy and it still results in drastically more investiture flowing through the body which can cause savantism.

 

1 hour ago, Calderis said:

I understand exactly what Savantism is, and I agree it should be possible. 

But it is a result of the specific way in which the power warps your Spiritual Aspect. All use of allomancy, whether for a typical metal or compounding, is drawing on the exact same power. It's all power flowing from Preservation right up until it hit the metal and is shaped into a product. Yet you don't become a Savant of Preservation's power, you become a Savant of that particular product. 

Spook was warped by the way that the power of Tin warped his Spiritual. Likewise, if Miles were a Savant, he'd be a Savant of feruchemical gold because that is the power he was continually producing. He'd done it long enough that if feruchemical Savantism is a thing he should have been one, yet Brandon says he hasn't made one and has no plans to. 

Maybe the fact that Feruchemy is using traits natural to the human spiritweb mitigates the warping effects. Maybe this will be retconned later. But for the time being, I have to go by what Brandon's said, and that means Miles was not a Savant. 

[Karger he/him]

Alright thought experiment time.  Let us take a hypothetical fullborn and have them compound say Atium(who doesn't want to stay young forever).  This person despite their fullborn nature does not compound anything except Atium in significant amounts for quite some time.  Then a war starts.  The fullborn worried decides to start compounding gold.  Are you saying that this fullborn will have f-gold savantism or at least be able to compound gold better because of their experience compounding atium??

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

13 minutes ago, Karger said:

Are you saying that this fullborn will have f-gold savantism or at least be able to compound gold better because of their experience compounding atium??

Not at all, I just think that since compounding is essentially allomancy (which again is a big part of the debate you might disagree with) that savantism is possible.

[Karger he/him]

17 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

Not at all, I just think that since compounding is essentially allomancy (which again is a big part of the debate you might disagree with) that savantism is possible.

Alright then.  I see no real reason why compounding gold would have a different effect on your spirit web then just burning regular gold but I suppose it could go either way.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Karger

[Calderis he/him]

For completeness I'm adding the WoB that started my thinking here. 

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Kurkistan

Is there such a thing as a Feruchemical savant?

Brandon Sanderson

I did not write Feruchemical savants into the original outline. Whether or not I will do them- it’s highly unlikely because it’s not there and Mistborn is getting trickier and trickier in that regard. But I didn’t write them in, so… that’s a “probably not”.

Calamity Chicago signing (Feb. 22, 2016)

After alloy, Brandon has said he hasn't written in any feruchemical savants, which in my mind means that miles wasn't one. 

Most of the arguments I've seen that conclude he was one relate to his lack of ability to feel pain, but I don't believe that that requires Savantism. 

If a person can have a gender transition just from healing, no Savantism needed, than perception should be enough for that. If you frequently heal minor injuries before pain is even able to register, that's a very slippery slope. If you believe that you shouldn't feel pain, then you it's should be easy for that to reach a point that you heal away your pain receptors. 

Quote

R'Shara

Would Stormlight healing, Progression, or Feruchemical gold healing count as some of the ways that a transgender person could change their body to match their identity?

Brandon Sanderson

Yes. Those would work. In fact, that's kind of the main way that you would make that happen. Injections of Investiture making the body match the Spiritual and Cognitive.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

And again, unless you think the power being produced through compounding is somehow different than what a gold compounder stores, a Savant by compounding is a feruchemical savant. 

Edited September 17, 2019 by Calderis

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

5 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And again, unless you think the power being produced through compounding is somehow different than what a gold compounder stores, a Savant by compounding is a feruchemical savant. 

I do. Normal F-Gold is obviously powered by the metalborn in question, but when you use C-Gold the source of power is preservation allowing for savantism to develop.

Edited September 17, 2019 by Truthwatcher_17.5

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, Truthwatcher_17.5 said:

I do. Normal F-Gold is obviously powered by the metalborn in question, but when you use C-Gold the source of power is preservation allowing for savantism to develop.

The source isn't the issue. The product is. 

Compounding creates a "new allomantic metal" that produces a feruchemical trait. The strength in compounding is that you don't have to always be burning, and Miles isn't. You burn and receive the power which you then store to have a limitless supply to tap. 

It's the same power that can be stored, and accessed at will. Marsh would be dead if continual burning was required because he's only alive through compounding, and all of the atium he has is from a single pouch he took from the Kandra at the end of HoA.

You burn, store, and access it later. 

Additionally, if the power were changed, so would be the effect. 

[Quantus he/him]

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The source isn't the issue. The product is. 

Compounding creates a "new allomantic metal" that produces a feruchemical trait. The strength in compounding is that you don't have to always be burning, and Miles isn't. You burn and receive the power which you then store to have a limitless supply to tap. 

This is admittedly nitpick, but while I agree that Miles didnt have much of a rational need to continuously burn, I dont thin we can say one way or the other whether he was burning constnatly for less rational reasons (addition to the sensation and/or a psychological need to be constantly invulnerable come to mind).  

7 minutes ago, Calderis said:

It's the same power that can be stored, and accessed at will. Marsh would be dead if continual burning was required because he's only alive through compounding, and all of the atium he has is from a single pouch he took from the Kandra at the end of HoA.

Nitpick: this doesnt make any real difference, but per WOB he has the bag and also he had his own small store of beads in his belly.  Still well within the very scientific unit of "1 Bagful" though :-P

The WOB says that "A small bead used right can reverse age someone back to their childhood", and while we dont know what the usage curve looks like once youre holding back multiple centuries, I think the Doylistic intent was for Marsh's little bag to be able to keep him alive for at least some Era3 appearances.  

[Mushroom Catalog he/him]

I think it depends on how you think of allomancy. Burning a metal connects one to Preservation, and it draws power through that connection. The connection varies for every metal, so when pewter is burned, the pewter sized power fits through the pewter sized hole. Square pegs don't fit through triangles, and while connection obviously isn't the same, I think the concept applies. The power comes from Preservation, fits through the metals

Making a feruchemical storage is creating a new metal. However, unlike most metals, it has 2 main connections. One to you, since you made it, and one to Preservation. When you burn this metal, the power from preservation comes through the metal-Preservation connection, and takes the form of the metal's connection to you so it is able to reach you more easily. The path of least resistance. This means that Preservation's power is being converted, sort of, through You-metal connection into the form of the feruchemical storage. This gives you the power from Preservation, but as the form of the feruchemical power.

Storing this works because it still fits into the metal, but you have a lot of the trait to store instead of just your own.

So, when one compounds, it is only the act of burning the feruchemical metal. Compounding really is a fancy term for feruchemical storage burning. It's just allomancy.

Savantism is when you, as Kell says sometime, when you burn metals too much and stretch your body. This stretching is caused by Preservation's power flowing into you at high speeds. Compounding does the same thing, letting in lots of Preservations power. Doing it for too long would have the same effect.

At least, that's what I think.

[Elsecaller_17.5 he/him]

2 hours ago, Calderis said:

Compounding creates a "new allomantic metal" that produces a feruchemical trait. The strength in compounding is that you don't have to always be burning, and Miles isn't. You burn and receive the power which you then store to have a limitless supply to tap. 

But you still have to burn the metal in the first place. If a thug flared pewter for 24 hours straight once a week he would develop savantism just like the thug who has it on a low burn non stop. 

But like I said, agree to disagree.

[xinoehp512 he/him]

Doesn't it say in the books that Miles is constantly compounding? I feel at one point Wax remarked on how much money he spent on gold to fuel his, quote, 'constant compounding'. In addition, I feel there was a remark at one point that it was dangerous to stop compounding once you had begun.

[Calderis he/him]

27 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

Doesn't it say in the books that Miles is constantly compounding? I feel at one point Wax remarked on how much money he spent on gold to fuel his, quote, 'constant compounding'. In addition, I feel there was a remark at one point that it was dangerous to stop compounding once you had begun.

He's constantly tapping gold. 

And the only comment we have on the "dangers" is a throwaway line from wax that's hearsay. 

Quote

He was said to keep the healing running constantly. From what Waxillium knew of Compounding, it could be very dangerous to stop once you’d started.

And we see him at a point that he'd have had to be unable to have gold left to burn or tap anyway and there weren't any noticeable effects. 

At his execution, they'd obviously missed a metalmind for him to tap from, but they intentionally waited long enough for him to burn any swallowed gold... And if he were still burning you think they wouldn't have caught it with a seeker? Or a leecher? 

We have no evidence to support that Wax is correct, and no words anywhere else in the book that there's a negative to him not burning. 

[xinoehp512 he/him]

6 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And we see him at a point that he'd have had to be unable to have gold left to burn or tap anyway and there weren't any noticeable effects. 

There wouldn't need to be. The effects of Spook's savantism weren't visible, after all.

Besides, savantism comes when a large amount of power flows through the spiritweb, something that definitely happens with compounding. 

 

 

[Calderis he/him]

11 minutes ago, xinoehp512 said:

There wouldn't need to be. The effects of Spook's savantism weren't visible, after all.

His inability to look at normal light without covering his eyes wasn't noticeable? Nearfv blindness without burning? Near deafness? You don't think there'd be similar negative effects from healing? 

A Savant of healing deprived of Investiture implies some... Rather terrifying effects honestly. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Calderis

[Karger he/him]

17 minutes ago, Calderis said:

A Savant of healing deprived of Investiture implies some... Rather terrifying effects honestly. 

Miles actually does stop.  He feels immediately weak.

[Pathfinder]

15 hours ago, Calderis said:

He's constantly tapping gold. 

And the only comment we have on the "dangers" is a throwaway line from wax that's hearsay. 

And we see him at a point that he'd have had to be unable to have gold left to burn or tap anyway and there weren't any noticeable effects. 

At his execution, they'd obviously missed a metalmind for him to tap from, but they intentionally waited long enough for him to burn any swallowed gold... And if he were still burning you think they wouldn't have caught it with a seeker? Or a leecher? 

We have no evidence to support that Wax is correct, and no words anywhere else in the book that there's a negative to him not burning. 

Wax was talking to Miles when Wax states that Miles needs the Set to fuel his constant gold usage due to gold being expensive. If Miles was primarily tapping, then he wouldn't need a continual influx of gold to maintain his compounding to the extent of relying on the Set which he abhors. 

Also there is Kelsier and Wax being steel savants without any external problems shown. Brandon has stated he is considering reworking savantism because of it. So I do not think we can accurately say just because we do not see any obvious negative effects on Miles the brief time he may not be burning, that none could exist. 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

Also there is Kelsier and Wax being steel savants without any external problems shown. Brandon has stated he is considering reworking savantism because of it. So I do not think we can accurately say just because we do not see any obvious negative effects on Miles the brief time he may not be burning, that none could exist. 

If he stops burning he collapses.

[Pathfinder]

25 minutes ago, Karger said:

If he stops burning he collapses.

He being Kelsier, Wax or Miles? Not sure which one you are referring to. 

[Karger he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

He being Kelsier, Wax or Miles? Not sure which one you are referring to. 

Miles.

[Pathfinder]

33 minutes ago, Karger said:

Miles.

Ok. My point was regardless what effect we see on Miles, considering Wax and Kelsier, the lack thereof, or less extent of the effect of savantism, is not enough to discount savantism. Or to put it another way, considering Wax and Kelsier have no outward signs of savantism, then regardless whether Miles exhibits signs or not, does not preclude him from being a savant. 

[Calderis he/him]

3 hours ago, Karger said:

If he stops burning he collapses.

The only time we see miles burn gold in the books was allomantic gold, and that mental and emotional collapse that appears as weakness happens with Vin too. 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Wax was talking to Miles when Wax states that Miles needs the Set to fuel his constant gold usage due to gold being expensive. If Miles was primarily tapping, then he wouldn't need a continual influx of gold to maintain his compounding to the extent of relying on the Set which he abhors. 

This is not true. To continually tap, he has to be able to replenish his store, which requires burning, which either means getting more gold, or it burning his metalminds. Gold also burns relatively quickly. 

4 hours ago, Pathfinder said:

Also there is Kelsier and Wax being steel savants without any external problems shown. Brandon has stated he is considering reworking savantism because of it. So I do not think we can accurately say just because we do not see any obvious negative effects on Miles the brief time he may not be burning, that none could exist. 

Kelsier was not a Savant. Wax is, and the lack of consequences is exactly why Brandon said he wants to refocus savants on the negative effects. My hope for Wax is that we actually will start to see negatives in book four and he's just been borderline up to this point. 

And all of this is still based on the fact that I do not for a moment believe that the power produced by compounding is in any way different than a bloodmaker storing. 

The act of burning is not what makes a Savant. It's the produced power. A compounding savant would be a Feruchemical savant. Brandon has said he has not yet, and has no plans to write one. If Miles wasn't one after years of continuous use, I just don't think it's possible. Period. 

Edited September 18, 2019 by Calderis

[Pathfinder]

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

This is not true. To continually tap, he has to be able to replenish his store, which requires burning, which either means getting more gold, or it burning his metalminds. Gold also burns relatively quickly. 

Right, so he is burning through gold quickly to then restore his stores, to then continually tap. He has to be burning a lot, if there he needs a backer to keep him well stocked. That is all I was saying. 

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

Kelsier was not a Savant. Wax is, and the lack of consequences is exactly why Brandon said he wants to refocus savants on the negative effects. My hope for Wax is that we actually will start to see negatives in book four and he's just been borderline up to this point. 

I will need to dig for the WoB, but Kelsier was a savant. That is how he was able to push on different parts of the steel rod. Savantism and how it works is now in flux, that is why I feel it is too early to say for sure Miles was or was not an allomantic gold savant. 

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

And all of this is still based on the fact that I do not for a moment believe that the power produced by compounding is in any way different than a bloodmaker storing. 

That is a discussion you and Quantus/Truthwatcher can continue to argue. Not saying I disagree with you or agree with you. Just was commenting on those two points. 

26 minutes ago, Calderis said:

The act of burning is not what makes a Savant. It's the produced power. A compounding savant would be a Feruchemical savant. Brandon has said he has not yet, and has no plans to write one. If Miles wasn't one after years of continuous use, I just don't think it's possible. Period. 

And my point is since the "signs" of a savant is currently in flux, I think it is too early to state whether or not Miles was or was not one. 

[Calderis he/him]

1 hour ago, Pathfinder said:

I will need to dig for the WoB, but Kelsier was a savant. That is how he was able to push on different parts of the steel rod. Savantism and how it works is now in flux, that is why I feel it is too early to say for sure Miles was or was not an allomantic gold savant. 

He wasn't. He may have been going down that road towards it, but it's a learnable skill, like metal sight. Not a Savant trait. 

Quote

Podman36

So, in the scene where Kelsier has all the metal around him, and he's Pushing and Pulling on [parts of the metal that are] not center of mass, is that something more along the lines of savantism, or is it just Rule of Cool?

Brandon Sanderson

No no, that I was pushing toward... I wouldn't call Kelsier a savant, but I would say that there were certainly steps toward that, and it's something I actually wanted people who were really skilled with the magic to be able to do.

Podman36

So it's not Rule of Cool.

Brandon Sanderson

I would not call that one Rule of Cool, I would say that I want that to actually be part of the magic, that I wanted there to be some level, particularly in Pushing and Pulling, of skill that lets you deviate from the normal. And I've tried to show in other places that people who are really skilled can do some different things like that, particularly with Pushing and Pulling, both on emotions and on metals. So no, not Rule of Cool there, I do occasionally do Rule of Cool stuff, but I wouldn't call that one.

Legion Release Party (Sept. 19, 2018)

 

[StanLemon]

Savantism occurs because of a regular and constant influx of investiture right? I think the reason Feruchemy wasn't part of his original outline is because of the storing then tapping aspect so it would never be a constant infusion into your spiritweb of that traits investiture. But with compounding you can tap nearly continuously thus constantly have an infusion of that trait's investiture into your system so following the logic we know of how savantism works then yes it should be possible.

On the other hand, there is this. 

Quote

Questioner

Can you compound like a, can you compund metalminds to the point where you become like a savant?

Brandon Sanderson

A savant happens because persistent use of the power has an effect on your soul, warping it. Compounding is a very different thing, so while you could draw some very powerful effects, I would not call them the same thing, even if they are imitating one another at certain points.

 

This however was a statement he made before he decided that he was going to change how savantism worked. So I think it's still too much up in the air as to whether one can exist or not. Based on the logic of how savantism work that we know about, I personally think it is and should be possible. Hopefully we will have a more definitive answer in the future.

Edited September 19, 2019 by StanLemon