the dawnshards

[Kalaksbreath he/him]

I don't know why but I get the strong sense that the dawnshards have some affiliation with the silver city's and the way they are laid out,

[Weltall]

We know from the Stormfather that the Dawnshards were involved in the devastation on Ashyn that caused most of the population to flee to Roshar. If the Dawncities predate the arrival of humans then they're probably not directly associated with the Dawnshards. Since we know almost nothing of the Dawncities (except that some believe Sesemalex Dar is one) and the Dawnshards just as mysterious in-universe and a huge mass of RAFO's out-of-universe, we don't really have much to work with.

[Nathrangking he/him]

Punzi (paraphrased)

Have we seen a Dawnshard in any Cosmere book?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes and no. *hands RAFO card*

DragonCon 2019 (Aug. 30, 2019)

[Gilphon]

For completeness, there are only two non-RAFO things we've gotten about Dawnshards: we know that Vyre's knife is not a Dawnshard, and that one Dawnshard is different from all the rest. 

So really, the implication that we've sort of seen a Dawnshard in at least one Cosmere book is probably the single most informative WoB we've ever gotten on the subject. 

[+robardin he/him]

5 hours ago, Gilphon said:

For completeness, there are only two non-RAFO things we've gotten about Dawnshards: we know that Vyre's knife is not a Dawnshard, and that one Dawnshard is different from all the rest. 

So really, the implication that we've sort of seen a Dawnshard in at least one Cosmere book is probably the single most informative WoB we've ever gotten on the subject. 

Ooh. I'd missed that WoB tidbit... Interesting...!

So in Oathbringer, they finally translate the Eila Stele from the Dawnchant:

Quote

They came from another world, using powers that we have been forbidden to touch. Dangerous powers, of spren and Surges. They destroyed their lands and have come to us begging. We took them in, as commanded by the gods. ...

Our pity destroyed us. For their betrayal extended even to our gods: to spren, stone, and wind. ... Well were they named Voidbringers, for they brought the void. The empty pit that sucks in emotion. A new god. Their god.

The singers had worshipped Honor and Cultivation, who commanded them to allow Odium-worshipping human refugees with Void-based Surgebinding powers to come live on Roshar. To the writer, that betrayal extended to "gods and spren, stone, and wind" as the agents of the betrayal of the singers, not victims of betrayal by the humans, setting the stage for the reversal of gods and the creation of the Fused and Thunderclasts that led to the Oathpact.

But then the Stormfather elaborates that the Recreance was more based on fear of triggering Ashyn II: The Dawnsharding of Roshar:

Quote

It was not only the truth of humankind’s origin that caused the Recreance. It was the distinct, powerful fear that they would destroy this world, as men like them had destroyed the one before. The Radiants abandoned their vows for that reason, as will you. ...

In the past, Honor was able to guard against this. He convinced the Radiants they were righteous, even if this land hadn’t originally been theirs. Who cares what your ancestors did, when the enemy is trying to kill you right now? But in the days leading to the Recreance, Honor was dying. When that generation of knights learned the truth, Honor did not support them. He raved, speaking of the Dawnshards, ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls. Honor … promised that Surgebinders would do the same to Roshar.

Some action of Honor had previously "supported" the KR to keep them "righteous", without which support he knew, and even promised (and that means something extra from Honor!), that they'd Dawnshard up the place as they'd done before. (You will embrace the Dark Side. It is inevitable... It is your destiny!)

So... What if Dawnshards aren't physical weapons now hidden away somewhere, but some kind of Sixth Ideal level of Surgebinding, bringing them close to the power level of a Shard of Adonalsium? A bit like the momentary Ascension the Lord Ruler experienced in Mistborn?

Edited September 15, 2019 by robardin

[ZenBossanova]

13 hours ago, robardin said:

 

So... What if Dawnshards aren't physical weapons now hidden away somewhere, but some kind of Sixth Ideal level of Surgebinding, bringing them close to the power level of a Shard of Adonalsium? A bit like the momentary Ascension the Lord Ruler experienced in Mistborn?

Something like Dalinar's Statement, I am Unity? 

Plausible. And very interesting. 

13 hours ago, robardin said:

Ashyn II: The Dawnsharding of Roshar:

Beautiful. 

May you forever title all of Brandon's books. 

[What's a Seawolf?]

On 9/15/2019 at 7:57 AM, robardin said:

So... What if Dawnshards aren't physical weapons now hidden away somewhere, but some kind of Sixth Ideal level of Surgebinding, bringing them close to the power level of a Shard of Adonalsium? A bit like the momentary Ascension the Lord Ruler experienced in Mistborn?

Oh I really like this.

To extrapolate, maybe this ties in to Honor's 'regulating' of surgebinders or whatever the term was.  Maybe the Ashyn Surgebinders, not bound by any oaths, could obtain the ability to control massive amounts of whatever surges they could handle.  This could cause destruction in two ways:  One, the lust for power (not just Ascendency power, but dominion over men) and the resulting effects, and/or two, having so much surgebinding power that you permanently alter (for example) the planet's actual gravitational pull.

So then the refugees come to Roshar, and eventually the KR's pop up.  Honor sees it as potentially a good thing, but institutes the oaths to prevent an Ashyn situation.  In this scenario the 'Dawnshards' would not so much be a Sixth Ideal, but rather an Ideal outside of Oaths, a way to 'Mini-Ascend' and make gravity whatever you want it to be for much of Roshar.  I'm not sure why one Dawnshard would be different from the rest, unless it relates to Bondsmiths generally (seemingly) being a little different than the other orders.

If this is true to some degree, Vyre having an Honorblade and unrestricted Windrunner powers could be very, very problematic...

[+robardin he/him]

1 hour ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Oh I really like this.

To extrapolate, maybe this ties in to Honor's 'regulating' of surgebinders or whatever the term was.  Maybe the Ashyn Surgebinders, not bound by any oaths, could obtain the ability to control massive amounts of whatever surges they could handle.  This could cause destruction in two ways:  One, the lust for power (not just Ascendency power, but dominion over men) and the resulting effects, and/or two, having so much surgebinding power that you permanently alter (for example) the planet's actual gravitational pull.

So then the refugees come to Roshar, and eventually the KR's pop up.  Honor sees it as potentially a good thing, but institutes the oaths to prevent an Ashyn situation.  In this scenario the 'Dawnshards' would not so much be a Sixth Ideal, but rather an Ideal outside of Oaths, a way to 'Mini-Ascend' and make gravity whatever you want it to be for much of Roshar.  I'm not sure why one Dawnshard would be different from the rest, unless it relates to Bondsmiths generally (seemingly) being a little different than the other orders.

If this is true to some degree, Vyre having an Honorblade and unrestricted Windrunner powers could be very, very problematic...

I think the Honorblades being described as "far less efficient" than a Surgebinder of advanced Ideals is not some kind of design flaw on Honor's part, but an intentional limitation.

The Heralds were supposed to be able to tap a direct connection to Honor for powering their Surges, and not use "dangerous amounts" of Stormlight as naturally harvested from highstorms. The "increased efficiency" of Stormlight use granted by the Nahel bond allows a Radiant to do more than a Herald could, at least with the same amount of Investiture.

Then the higher spren learned to "pattern a bond after the Honorblades", I think meaning their bonding with a human as the Honorblades were bonded with Heralds. Which allowed for more efficent use of Surges, by far more individuals, and independent of a direct conduit from a Shard like Honor. Uh-oh.

And then Ishar (as told in the recorded lore of the in-world Words of Radiance and the chapter heading for Ch. 42 in the actual book; it might "really" have been Honor), he readily understood the implications of Surges being granted to men, and caused organization to be thrust upon them; as having too great power, he let it be known that he would destroy each and every one, unless they agreed to be bound by precepts and laws. Meaning, Ideals to require certain thresholds of conduct and commitment to advance in power.

Also consider what it means for "Surges" to have destroyed Ashyn, combined with the fact that humans had worshiped and brought Odium with them to Roshar. We've seen that the Fused can wield Surges, but not via a Nahel bond and powered not with Stormlight but "Voidlight". It stands to reason that it was this form of manipulating the Surges that humans had done before. Which also implies that the Fused now have it in them, potentially, to destroy Roshar as the humans had done Ashyn? "If we can't have this world, nobody can?"

Edited September 16, 2019 by robardin

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

On 9/15/2019 at 4:57 AM, robardin said:

So... What if Dawnshards aren't physical weapons now hidden away somewhere, but some kind of Sixth Ideal level of Surgebinding, bringing them close to the power level of a Shard of Adonalsium? A bit like the momentary Ascension the Lord Ruler experienced in Mistborn?

 

1 hour ago, What's a Seawolf? said:

Oh I really like this.

To extrapolate, maybe this ties in to Honor's 'regulating' of surgebinders or whatever the term was.  Maybe the Ashyn Surgebinders, not bound by any oaths, could obtain the ability to control massive amounts of whatever surges they could handle.  This could cause destruction in two ways:  One, the lust for power (not just Ascendency power, but dominion over men) and the resulting effects, and/or two, having so much surgebinding power that you permanently alter (for example) the planet's actual gravitational pull.

So then the refugees come to Roshar, and eventually the KR's pop up.  Honor sees it as potentially a good thing, but institutes the oaths to prevent an Ashyn situation.  In this scenario the 'Dawnshards' would not so much be a Sixth Ideal, but rather an Ideal outside of Oaths, a way to 'Mini-Ascend' and make gravity whatever you want it to be for much of Roshar.  I'm not sure why one Dawnshard would be different from the rest, unless it relates to Bondsmiths generally (seemingly) being a little different than the other orders.

If this is true to some degree, Vyre having an Honorblade and unrestricted Windrunner powers could be very, very problematic...

We've even gotten WoB that having the matching Honorblade to your Order when bonded to a Spren would give you a boost to your Surgebinding (though it wasn't worded in a way that implied world-breaking power).

Quote

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a non-Windrunner picked up Jezrien's Honorblade would they gain Windrunner powers as well?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes.

Questioner (paraphrased)

If a Windrunner picked up that blade, would their abilities be enhanced?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

There would be some compounding but strength is not as much an issue with Surgebinding as is the strength of the spren bond and how much Stormlight you are using.

Words of Radiance Houston signing (March 11, 2014)

So Vyre isn't going to be throwing entire storming mountains any time soon afaik.

[ZenBossanova]

4 hours ago, Halyo_Alex said:

 

We've even gotten WoB that having the matching Honorblade to your Order when bonded to a Spren would give you a boost to your Surgebinding (though it wasn't worded in a way that implied world-breaking power).

So Vyre isn't going to be throwing entire storming mountains any time soon afaik.

Keep in mind, he also has the quasi-helalurgic dagger that ripped the Oathpact out of Jezrien. 

What power does this give him? 

[Halyo_Alex he/him]

6 hours ago, ZenBossanova said:

Keep in mind, he also has the quasi-helalurgic dagger that ripped the Oathpact out of Jezrien. 

What power does this give him? 

If that literally is the spiritual mumbo-jumbo of the Oathpact, then I worry that Vyre now has the power to allow the Fused to return from Braise like the heralds did, and start a new Desolation, even if the Everstorm is negated.

[+robardin he/him]

So I went back and searched all the published Stormlight e-books for mentioning of "Dawnshard".

The Way of Kings:

• Ch. 19, Shallan talking to Jasnah about the "Assuredness Movement" in scholarship: "A mythological treasure, Brightness, much like the Dawnshards or the Honorblades."
• Ch. 36, chapter heading: "Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above." (From The Poem of Ista, "with no modern explanation of what these Dawnshards are.")
• Ch. 75, in one of Honor's bequeathed visions of the destruction of Kholinar, where Dalinar finally realizes that it's a one-way playback:

• Quote

  You cannot squabble as in times past. He's realized that you, given time, will become your own enemies. That he doesn't need to fight you. ... I wish I could do more. You might be able to get him to choose a champion. He is bound by some rules. All of us are. A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And... without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can. It is a terrible, terrible thing to leave you alone."

   

Words of Radiance: There is literally no use of the word "Dawnshard". However, at the point in Ch. 71 where Shallan notices the pattern of the destruction on the Shattered Plains reminds her of "patterns made by sand on a plate", as from Kabsal's demonstration to her of cymatics, I noted at the time as "Hmm, Dawnshards in action?"

Arcanum Unbounded (which includes Edgedancer): no mention.

Oathbringer: only the Stormfather's description given in detail earlier in this thread, of how Honor "raved about the Dawnshards" to bring about the Recreance.

The "Poem of Ista" implies that a Dawnshard is an object to be physically taken, one that "binds any creature voidish or mortal". But this same poem describes a temple with steps "crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece", where we now know that the Heralds are actually of ordinary human stature, so the whole passage could be complete fancy. Unless it was a temple specifically for Jezrien or Nalan, who could fly up the steps. And what would this "Ista" (presumably the "he" in question) be intending to do with the Dawnshard once he ascended to the temple, anyway?

Jasnah does note in her commentary of this that Dawnshards are mentioned often in early mythologies, but largely ignored by later scholars... Perhaps as if information about them has been expunged, and discussion of them suppressed, by a Herald who might be working at the Palaeneum.

Setting that snippet aside, then, what do we know or can infer?

• The Recreance of the Knights Radiant happened after the abdication of Oathpact by all the Heralds except Taln.
• The visions were recorded by Honor after the Recreance. We know this because he includes the Recreance in one of them.
• He had "raved", "while dying", to the Recreance-era Radiants that they would inevitably destroy Roshar with Surgebinding, mentioning the Dawnshards in that context. So Honor's "dying" took long enough in mortal time to span the Recreance, and then to record the visions he left the Stormfather.
• And yet, he tells the post-Recreance Bondsmith-to-come (Dalinar), that the Stormfather was to give these visions after he was Splintered, to refound the Knights Radiant.
• He notes that going champion-vs.-champion against Odium "could work for you", then regretfully reflects, "without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can", which could mean either "you really would've been best off to enter that CvC armed with the Dawnshards", or that "if you had them you wouldn't need to go the CvC route, but here we are, so CvC is the only good option left".
• Either way, it means Honor didn't think it's possible for Dalinar to find/get the Dawnshards (not in time, at least). Making his last, dying gambit to get a new Bondsmith in a position to refound the Radiants just a few years ahead of the True Desolation ("I WAS REQUIRED TO SEND THOSE VISIONS ONCE THE TIME ARRIVED. THE ALMIGHTY DEMANDED IT OF ME."), without the Heralds and without the Dawnshards, and to make a good enough showing of it that Dalinar can get Odium to accept a CvC challenge.

So something doesn't add up. If Honor was on-his-deathbed "promising" that the Knights Radiant, possibly because of the desertion of the nine Heralds, would destroy Roshar with Surgebinding and the Dawnshards... Why was he subsequently keen on having Dalinar refound them, while also saying pretty firmly that Dalinar will be without the Dawnshards?

Now, the Stormfather describes the Dawnshards as "ancient weapons used to destroy the Tranquiline Halls"; doesn't that suggest them as "weapons" a la Shardblades, as the Poem of Ista also implies? Maybe. But just using the term "Tranquiline Halls" (a Vorinist one) could suggest he's using human words/concepts drawn from his bond with Dalinar or earlier humans. Besides, humans can be crafted into a weapon. Just ask Szeth.

It's also worth remembering that Dalinar has had a number of visions that he initially thought were from Honor, but that the Stormfather later disavows. The one of Nohadon measuring grain, for example. Maybe some of the inconsistencies are coming from Odium faking or tampering with a vision?

[Gilphon]

Hmm. Perhaps Honor believed that the Dawnshards are firmly under Odium's control? That could explain why he was confident Dalinar wouldn't have access to them, but nevertheless believed that they would be used to destroy Roshar- the Surgebinders he thought would do the deed would therefore be the Fused, not the Knights.

Which could be supporting evidence for a theory I saw on here somewhere- that the Unmade were created by transforming the Dawnshards. The main problem I see with that is I don't know to reconcile it with the 'bind any creature voidish or mortal' line.

[InfernalSquid he/him]

The Dawnshards, then, are definitely tools or weapons of some kind, whether simply as a form of Investiture or a really weird-chull sword or something. They are not Vyre's knife, they are not Honorblades or Shardblades, and they are in some way related to Connection or links, as they apparently 'bind'.

Could the Dawnshards have been perfect gems with special properties? They would have been able to indefinitely store enormous amounts of Investiture, they could capture any kind of spren, even the Unmade, and it is implied that too much Stormlight could tear the human body apart...

If so, then Honor's Drop would have been a Dawnshard, plausibly, and the reason that the Dawnshards would be so instrumental in the battle against Odium is that they could capture the Unmade, store and possibly channel (special properties, perhaps Invested in an entirely different manner) Stormlight, and maybe even capture parts of the power of a Shard. 

[Kalaksbreath he/him]

Is it possible for the dawn shards to be on the island of Akinah because the cook in that kills Kaza says that if the island was discovered it would mean the end of worlds and I don't think a soulcaster would be able to destroy a planet?

[Chiberty]

5 hours ago, robardin said:

"Taking the Dawnshard, known to bind any creature voidish or mortal, he crawled up the steps crafted for Heralds, ten strides tall apiece, toward the grand temple above." (From The Poem of Ista, "with no modern explanation of what these Dawnshards are.")

Who measures height in strides? Who measures something in strides that they are currently crawling across? Who is small enough compared to a herald that a step would be ten strides tall?

Bugs.... or Sleepless.

If the Dawnshards used to be Unmade, the "known to bind any creature voidish or mortal" line could refer to something like Yelig-nar, who 'bonds' with humans or singers, or it could be Dai-Gonarthis, who may have caused the scouring of Aimia, which is where many Sleepless were. 

Theory: Dai-Gonarthis is used in the Scouring of Aimia, similar to how Dawnshards were used on Ashyn. A Sleepless captures him, then crawls up the steps to the Oathgate. The Sleepless then has someone at the Oathgate send Dai-Gonarthis away, maybe fully into the cognitive realm, explaining why Hessi is unsure about his existence.

Quote

"It will not take a careful reader to ascertain I have listed only eight of the Unmade here. Lore is confident there were nine, an unholy number, asymmetrical and often associated with the enemy... I am certain there are nine Unmade. There are many legends and names that I could have misinterpreted, conflating two Unmade into one. In the next section, I will discuss my theories on this... If I'm correct and my research true, then the question remains. Who is the ninth Unmade? Is it truly Dai-Gonarthis? If so, could their actions have actually caused the complete destruction of Aimia?"

 

[+robardin he/him]

45 minutes ago, ChickenLiberty said:

Who measures height in strides? Who measures something in strides that they are currently crawling across? Who is small enough compared to a herald that a step would be ten strides tall?

Bugs.... or Sleepless.

 

Ooh, nice catch. Innnteresting.

[Gilphon]

As aside, it doesn't read to me like Hessi's uncertain of Dai-Gonarthis' existence, but rather that she seems reluctant to draw the conclusion that Dai-Gonarthis is an Unmade.

To be precise- her uncertainty can't merely be a consequence of Dai-Gonarthis not having shown up anywhere recently, since that didn't cause any hesitation in her identification of Bo-Ado-Mishram and Re-Shepnir. To me, it feel like Dai-Gonarthis is something that is widely known about, but isn't normally thought of as malign- indeed, perhaps it's something with such a benign reputation that even Hessi hesitates to suggest it could an Unmade. Hence why it's phrased as 'Who is the ninth Unmade? Is it truly Dai-Gonarthis?' Rather than 'Who is Dai-Gonariths, the ninth Unmade?' or something like that. 

But yeah, that poem being from the point of view of a Sleepless is a great catch, and now that you say that I can't think of any other explanation for why it would be written like that.

[+robardin he/him]

On 9/17/2019 at 0:26 PM, robardin said:

• The Recreance of the Knights Radiant happened after the abdication of Oathpact by all the Heralds except Taln.
• The visions were recorded by Honor after the Recreance. We know this because he includes the Recreance in one of them.
• He had "raved", "while dying", to the Recreance-era Radiants that they would inevitably destroy Roshar with Surgebinding, mentioning the Dawnshards in that context. So Honor's "dying" took long enough in mortal time to span the Recreance, and then to record the visions he left the Stormfather.
• And yet, he tells the post-Recreance Bondsmith-to-come (Dalinar), that the Stormfather was to give these visions after he was Splintered, to refound the Knights Radiant.
• He notes that going champion-vs.-champion against Odium "could work for you", then regretfully reflects, "without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can", which could mean either "you really would've been best off to enter that CvC armed with the Dawnshards", or that "if you had them you wouldn't need to go the CvC route, but here we are, so CvC is the only good option left".
• ....

So something doesn't add up. If Honor was on-his-deathbed "promising" that the Knights Radiant, possibly because of the desertion of the nine Heralds, would destroy Roshar with Surgebinding and the Dawnshards... Why was he subsequently keen on having Dalinar refound them, while also saying pretty firmly that Dalinar will be without the Dawnshards?

...

It's also worth remembering that Dalinar has had a number of visions that he initially thought were from Honor, but that the Stormfather later disavows. The one of Nohadon measuring grain, for example. Maybe some of the inconsistencies are coming from Odium faking or tampering with a vision?

So, in one of the other threads in the SA forum, someone mentioned how Honor's color is blue, Cultivation's is green, and Odium is white-and-gold or simply gold.

I forget exactly how these associations are given in the books, but they seem familiar.

I then recalled that in re-reading the part from Ch. 75 of The Way of Kings where Dalinar has his OMG moment that the visions are a one-way playback, the part where he is first told that getting Odium to agree to a "contest of champions could work for you" and that they'd be "without the Dawnshards", the words come from a regal, divine figure who speaks these words after he climbs to high ground overlooking a destroyed Kholinar, a vision he remembers having had before, but not having heard these words before.

And that figure, the one that first tells him to get Odium to agree to a contest of champions and also first mentions the Dawnshards (as something he'd be without), is dressed in gold.

The relevant parts from that vision he has in Chapter 75, with my commentary in brackets:

Quote

As the highstorm hit in force, he felt the vision coming on. ...

It wasn't like any vision he'd seen before. It was ...

No, wait. ... I have seen this place before. In the first of my visions, so many months ago. It was fuzzy in his mind. He'd been disoriented, the vision vague, as if his mind hadn't learned to accept what it was seeing. In fact, the only thing he remembered distinctly was --

"You must unite them," a powerful voice boomed.

--was the voice.

[He shouts back at the voice, not yet realizing it's a one way conversation, but then, is transported somewhere else....]

It was very odd for one of the visions to set him in a place without others to talk to and interact with. ...

Eventually, he spotted a ridge. Getting to high ground seemed like a good idea, ...

And there he saw Kholinar, his home, the capital city of Alethkar.

It had been destroyed. ...

This wasn't like the vision he had seen before, with Nohadon. [TWoK Ch. 60, the first time he saw Kholinar in shambles from fighting Voidbringers, through a window, while playing the role of an advisor to Nohadon.] That wasn't the Kholinar of the distant past; he could see the rubble of his own palace. ... Was this now a vision of the future? [Seeing the future, it is of the enemy!!!!]

"I cannot fight him any longer," the voice said.

Dalinar jumped, glancing to the side. A man stood there. He had dark skin and pure white hair. Tall, thick of chest but not massive, he wore exotic clothing of a strange cut: loose, billowing trousers and a coat that came down only to his waist. Both seemed made of gold.

Yes... this very thing had happened before, in his very first vision. Dalinar could remember it now. [Really? Or is this the equivalent of getting Soothed?] 

... [The figure tells him he must speak again the ancient oaths, the Knights Radiant must stand again, and that Odium has realized he can win just by sitting back and letting mankind fight amongst themselves...]

"I wish I could do more," repeated the figure in gold. "You might be able to get him to choose a champion. ...  A champion could work well for you, but it is not certain. And... without the Dawnshards... Well, I have done what I can."

What if the idea that this vision was actually a repeat of the very first one he'd ever had, which is why he remembered it only fuzzily but the familiarity was kicking in at a subconscious level, was suggested/implanted by Odium, who has shanghaied one of Honor's visions into a little side vision of his own? 

Which means... The whole idea of a CvC fight, was actually something Odium wanted and manipulated Dalinar into offering. Except it's backfired on him, in that his checkmate move, choosing Dalinar as his champion, has blown up in his face.

Which also means, as Dalinar surmised, that simply destroying humanity on Roshar wouldn't free Odium from his bonds. He needs something else as a victory condition, which is hard to achieve, OR the CvC showdown, which he thought he'd cleverly wangled into a no-lose scenario, until he lost his main piece.

And also means, I think, that the Dawnshards ARE available to Dalinar and company. And that perhaps the Knights Radiant, with no Honor and no Heralds, will indeed destroy Roshar with them, as the Stormfather remembers Honor raving about as he died.

Edited September 19, 2019 by robardin