Szeth's Spren

[rjl]

Chapter 92 of Oathbringer

Quote

"I knew a voice like yours once, sword-nimi."

The whispers?

"No. A single one, in my mind, when I was young."

Did Szeth bond a spren at a very young age but suppress/forget it later? Possibly when he was made Truthless? Could this in fact be what he was made Truthless for?

Edited August 27, 2019 by rjl

[That Violin Guy]

I don't think so Szeth was made truthless for raising the alarm about voidbringers that much is clear in the books. Great Idea though I like it.

[rjl]

10 minutes ago, Oduim's Champion said:

I don't think so Szeth was made truthless for raising the alarm about voidbringers that much is clear in the books. Great Idea though I like it.

We indeed know that Szeth thinking that the voidbringers were returning was part of why he became truthless.

But could this not in some way be related to him bonding a Spren? Could the Spren have told him that the voidbringers were returning? OR could he have bonded the spren because he thought that the Voidbringers were returning?

[Impact]

54 minutes ago, rjl said:

But could this not in some way be related to him bonding a Spren? Could the Spren have told him that the voidbringers were returning? OR could he have bonded the spren because he thought that the Voidbringers were returning?

I think this is highly likely.  Why else would he assume the voidbrigners would return?  I do think its possible that he did not realize he was bonding a spren and did not understand where the knowledge was coming from.  

 

But would this be his current highspren?  Or a different one?  

[rjl]

1 hour ago, Impact said:

I think this is highly likely.  Why else would he assume the voidbrigners would return?  I do think its possible that he did not realize he was bonding a spren and did not understand where the knowledge was coming from.  

 

But would this be his current highspren?  Or a different one?  

My current speculation is that this spren is his current highspren - particularly with his thought when swearing his third oath from chapter 121 of Oathbringer:

Quote

He felt a surge of something. Approval? From the hidden spren who only rarely showed itself to him, even still.

Whilst it says nothing explicit about the length of the bond with this spren that way of describing it sounds a little too familiar if Szeth had no relationship with it before swearing the second ideal in Oathbringer additionally "even still" implies that the relationship with this spren has changed in some way over time - but if he only met this spren after swearing the second ideal their relationship would have been very short.

Though I am not certain of this point and also it feels too similar in some ways to Shallan's past.

Edited August 27, 2019 by rjl

[Impact]

2 minutes ago, rjl said:

My current speculation is that this spren is his current highspren - particularly with his thought when swearing his third oath from chapter 121 of Oathbringer:

Whilst it says nothing explicit about the length of the bond with this spren that way of describing it sounds a little too familiar if Szeth had no relationship with it before swearing the second ideal in Oathbringer additionally "even still" implies that the relationship with this spren has changed in some way over time - but if he only met this spren after swearing the second ideal their relationship would have been very short.

Though I am not certain of this point and also it feels too similar in some ways to Shallan's past.

Very possible.  I am still a little unsure that it is his current spren, because, like you said, that would be very similar to Shallan, and he may not have impressed the highspren before becoming truthless, otherwise it would make sense for it to have become known to him earlier and proven that he wasn't truthless after all.  He could have met the spren before swearing the second ideal, and just had it following him.  Or if he did meet it after the second, that just implies that its strange the spren had not made itself known after what they ahd been through.

[That Violin Guy]

1 hour ago, Impact said:

I think this is highly likely.  Why else would he assume the voidbrigners would return?  I do think its possible that he did not realize he was bonding a spren and did not understand where the knowledge was coming from.  

 

But would this be his current highspren?  Or a different one?  

If it is his current one then it did what Pattern did and briefly hid the bond. 

[+Q10fanatic]

5 hours ago, rjl said:

Did Szeth bond a spren at a very young age but suppress/forget it later? Possibly when he was made Truthless? Could this in fact be what he was made Truthless for?

I've always thought this is what happened. Further, I think when he accepted being Truthless that this caused him to sever the bond. I hope that this gets addressed in his own flashbacks.

[Quantus]

7 hours ago, rjl said:

Chapter 92 of Oathbringer

Did Szeth bond a spren at a very young age but suppress/forget it later? Possibly when he was made Truthless? Could this in fact be what he was made Truthless for?

That was my impression as well.  My current theory is that Szeth bonded a Spren, which I think was a cultural indication of the Return of the Radiants, and with them the Desolations, Voidbringers, etc.  For whatever reasons, the Shin leaders rejected his evidence, convinced both him and themselves that he must have been lying, and branded him Truthless.

What I still cant figure out is the deal with the Shin and the Honorblades. If they were that insistant that the Radiants would not return, why were some of them trained in the use of the Surges and/or Honorblades?  And why was a Truthless sent out into the world adrift with an Honorblade? 

[Isilel]

22 hours ago, Impact said:

But would this be his current highspren?  Or a different one?  

 

IMHO, it was almost certainly a different kind of spren. The highspren seem to have bought Nale's party line hook and sinker so none of them would have been warning people about a Desolation that they themselves didn't believe was coming,  and they are also rigidly organized, so I really don't see one of them haring off to bond a person not vetted and tested by the Skybreakers.  Szeth's ordeal probably changed him a lot, too, and according to the Ghostblood letter, Nale liked to snap up people close to bonding other spren and somehow induct them into the Skybreakers instead.

 

17 hours ago, Quantus said:

What I still cant figure out is the deal with the Shin and the Honorblades. If they were that insistant that the Radiants would not return, why were some of them trained in the use of the Surges and/or Honorblades?  And why was a Truthless sent out into the world adrift with an Honorblade? 

 

Like many political and religious elites historically, the Stone Shamans seem to have special rules for themselves and the relics they guard. It was heavily hinted in SA that Szeth used to be one of them himself and OB thankfully confirms what many suspected - that he trained with and been awarded the Honorblade when he was still a respected member of Shin society. I guess that there is a sacred tradition that custodianship of a Honorblade is for life, so they felt that they couldn't take it away from Szeth even after they named him Truthless. When that Shin farmer told Vstim that their society could hardly afford another one like Szeth, this is, retroactively looking, likely what he truly meant, IMHO.

There is also this juicy recent WoB:

 

 

Quote

 

Zykai (paraphrased)

Did the Shin use Honorblades in their invasions? If yes, did they also use Surges?

Brandon Sanderson (paraphrased)

Yes and yes.

Stuttgart signing (May 17, 2019)

 

 

[rjl]

16 minutes ago, Isilel said:

IMHO, it was almost certainly a different kind of spren. The highspren seem to have bought Nale's party line hook and sinker so none of them would have been warning people about a Desolation that they themselves didn't believe was coming,  and they are also rigidly organized, so I really don't see one of them haring off to bond a person not vetted and tested by the Skybreakers.  Szeth's ordeal probably changed him a lot, too, and according to the Ghostblood letter, Nale liked to snap up people close to bonding other spren and somehow induct them into the Skybreakers instead.

I definitely see the argument here - BUT I can think of a couple of counter points:

1. From the epilogue of Words of Radiance Jasnah talking to Hoid: "The words of the highspren could be inaccurate" - it seems that in Shadesmar highspren gave Jasnah information about the desolations - this doesn't sound in line with the highspren following Nale's line of no desolation is coming.

2. The point I quoted above about how Szeth reflected on his highspren when swearing his 3rd Ideal - which implied a longer relationship

3. This comment that could imply a past involvement with highspren? Chapter 90 of Oathbringer (bottom page 867 in the hardback) 

"The Herald," Ki said, "originally thought that you might skip to the Third Ideal because of your past"

[That Violin Guy]

1 hour ago, rjl said:

I definitely see the argument here - BUT I can think of a couple of counter points:

1. From the epilogue of Words of Radiance Jasnah talking to Hoid: "The words of the highspren could be inaccurate" - it seems that in Shadesmar highspren gave Jasnah information about the desolations - this doesn't sound in line with the highspren following Nale's line of no desolation is coming.

2. The point I quoted above about how Szeth reflected on his highspren when swearing his 3rd Ideal - which implied a longer relationship

3. This comment that could imply a past involvement with highspren? Chapter 90 of Oathbringer (bottom page 867 in the hardback) 

 

 

Those are excellent points. I agree wholeheartedly. 

[Impact]

2 hours ago, Isilel said:

I guess that there is a sacred tradition that custodianship of a Honorblade is for life, so they felt that they couldn't take it away from Szeth even after they named him Truthless. When that Shin farmer told Vstim that their society could hardly afford another one like Szeth, this is, retroactively looking, likely what he truly meant, IMHO.

I viewed it as he showed aptitude for fighting and thus became a soldier, which is a lower caste, generally.  I always assumed that he had the blade due to his aptitude, though he was not necessarily respected for it.  More like he was a dangerous weapon to be used.

[+Q10fanatic]

2 hours ago, rjl said:

3. This comment that could imply a past involvement with highspren? Chapter 90 of Oathbringer (bottom page 867 in the hardback) 

I always took this to be a comment about Szeth's already-proven expertise in Gravitation and his proven ability to follow "the law". He wouldn't need much (any) time at the 2nd Ideal level because he is already good enough with that surge and had (in Nale's eyes) already shown that he "will put the law before all else" which is the 2nd Ideal per the Coppermind.

[rjl]

34 minutes ago, Q10fanatic said:

I always took this to be a comment about Szeth's already-proven expertise in Gravitation and his proven ability to follow "the law". He wouldn't need much (any) time at the 2nd Ideal level because he is already good enough with that surge and had (in Nale's eyes) already shown that he "will put the law before all else" which is the 2nd Ideal per the Coppermind.

That's the other thing it could mean.

[Karger]

If Szeth had bonded and suppressed a spren Shallan style(something I don't think he would be very good at) I think that either Nale or the Spren themselves would have noticed.  There are a number of ways Szeth could find out about the imminent voidbringer assault.  Future sight would work as would spren informants, knowledge of a budding Radiant, hearing a death rattle, or perhaps one of the Honorblades does something odd.

[rjl]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

If Szeth had bonded and suppressed a spren Shallan style(something I don't think he would be very good at) I think that either Nale or the Spren themselves would have noticed.  There are a number of ways Szeth could find out about the imminent voidbringer assault.  Future sight would work as would spren informants, knowledge of a budding Radiant, hearing a death rattle, or perhaps one of the Honorblades does something odd.

I was suggesting above that Nale had a reason for thinking that Szeth could jump to the 3rd Ideal - being aware of a suppressed bond could be such a reason.

As for how he found out about the voidbringers there are indeed several possibilities - that is not my primary reason for thinking he bonded a spren years ago.

[Karger]

13 minutes ago, rjl said:

I was suggesting above that Nale had a reason for thinking that Szeth could jump to the 3rd Ideal - being aware of a suppressed bond could be such a reason.

Szeth did jump to the third ideal.  It took him like a week no?

[Quantus]

2 hours ago, Karger said:

If Szeth had bonded and suppressed a spren Shallan style(something I don't think he would be very good at) I think that either Nale or the Spren themselves would have noticed.  There are a number of ways Szeth could find out about the imminent voidbringer assault.  Future sight would work as would spren informants, knowledge of a budding Radiant, hearing a death rattle, or perhaps one of the Honorblades does something odd.

So far everything we've seen casts all forms of Future-Sight as a Voidish ability on Roshar, specifically, so I doubt that was used.  

1 minute ago, Karger said:

Szeth did jump to the third ideal.  It took him like a week no?

Nope, he was trained, tested and swore the Oaths in sequence along with the rest of the recruits.  Nale thought he might skip the Squire step (2nd ideal for Skybreakers), but since Nale wasnt present at the time of testing the other Masters followed the standard procedure with Szeth.  He swore the 2nd and became KI's squire for a (short) time.  His was certainly an accelerated progression, but he still hit all the standard steps.  

6 hours ago, rjl said:

I definitely see the argument here - BUT I can think of a couple of counter points:

1. From the epilogue of Words of Radiance Jasnah talking to Hoid: "The words of the highspren could be inaccurate" - it seems that in Shadesmar highspren gave Jasnah information about the desolations - this doesn't sound in line with the highspren following Nale's line of no desolation is coming.

2. The point I quoted above about how Szeth reflected on his highspren when swearing his 3rd Ideal - which implied a longer relationship

3. This comment that could imply a past involvement with highspren? Chapter 90 of Oathbringer (bottom page 867 in the hardback) 

These are good points. As devils'advocate counter-arguemnts:

1)There's a reasonably good chance that the Highspren are not a monolithic group/race/organization.  Im basing this on the fact that Nale & co have no issues continuing to train a Skybreaker that is on the opposite side of the current conflict.  The Honorspren are more about the Spirit of law&honr and they have the Stormfather as a sort of ascendant Unifying leader (as Tanavast's heir), but it thematically makes a lot of sense if the Highspren have more diverse Factions thanks to different interpretations of the Letter of the Law.  

2) I took the passage to be confirmation that Szeth had indeed Bonded a normal spren, but that he had not really developed a typical relationship with it, presumably since he's too busy developing that personal relationship with Nightblood.  Correct me if Im wrong, but that quotes passage was from right after Szeth swore the 4th Ideal, which would theoretically happen long after they Radiant and spren developed a more active partnership.

3) As @Q10fanatic said, I took this to be a reference to how impressed Nale was with Szeth's absolute fidelity to the Law while he was a Truthless, which Nale went on about some at the end of WoK. But it could also be indication that he'd previously bonded a Highspren, specifically. And it could even be Both, as we're just talking about something Ki relayed second hand, and Nale may or may not have elaborated on his reasoning.  

[Karger]

3 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Nope, he was trained, tested and swore the Oaths in sequence along with the rest of the recruits.  Nale thought he might skip the Squire step (2nd ideal for Skybreakers), but since Nale wasnt present at the time of testing the other Masters followed the standard procedure with Szeth.  He swore the 2nd and became KI's squire for a (short) time.  His was certainly an accelerated progression, but he still hit all the standard steps.  

I was only talking about the time between Nale swearing the first ideal and the third.  We have absolutly no examples of anyone completely skipping an ideal.  Even if you already understand a concept the oath swearing possesses require that you articulate it.

Edited August 28, 2019 by Karger

[rjl]

6 minutes ago, Quantus said:

These are good points. As devils'advocate counter-arguemnts:

1)There's a reasonably good chance that the Highspren are not a monolithic group/race/organization.  Im basing this on the fact that Nale & co have no issues continuing to train a Skybreaker that is on the opposite side of the current conflict.  The Honorspren are more about the Spirit of law&honr and they have the Stormfather as a sort of ascendant Unifying leader (as Tanavast's heir), but it thematically makes a lot of sense if the Highspren have more diverse Factions thanks to different interpretations of the Letter of the Law.  

2) I took the passage to be confirmation that Szeth had indeed Bonded a normal spren, but that he had not really developed a typical relationship with it, presumably since he's too busy developing that personal relationship with Nightblood.  Correct me if Im wrong, but that quotes passage was from right after Szeth swore the 4th Ideal, which would theoretically happen long after they Radiant and spren developed a more active partnership.

3) As @Q10fanatic said, I took this to be a reference to how impressed Nale was with Szeth's absolute fidelity to the Law while he was a Truthless, which Nale went on about some at the end of WoK. But it could also be indication that he'd previously bonded a Highspren, specifically. And it could even be Both, as we're just talking about something Ki relayed second hand, and Nale may or may not have elaborated on his reasoning.  

1. We're in agreement here - my point was made in response to Isilel's comment further up that all Highsprens would disagree with the idea of a desolation coming as they'd be on board with Nale hence a highspren bonding a younger Szeth wouldn't have thought a desolation was coming.

2. That quote was indeed from when Szeth swore the 3rd ideal (I assume 4th was a typo). BUT my argument was that the tone/feel of that statement implied a longer relationship whereas if Szeth only bonded a highspren after becoming a squire their relationship would have lasted maybe a week so far at most.

3. Seems like we're entirely in agreement on this point - it could be either or both.

[Quantus]

15 minutes ago, Karger said:

I was only talking about the time between Nale swearing the first ideal and the third.  We have absolutly no examples of anyone completely skipping an ideal.  Even if you already understand a concept the oath swearing possesses require that you articulate it.

Agreed.  As far as I know nobody, including Nale, thought he'd be able to skip the Third Ideal, rather I think Nale expected him to swear the 2nd and 3rd more or less together, to be able to attract his own Highspren without having to spend any time as a Squire to another Skybreaker the way they typically do between their 2nd and 3rd ideals.

 

6 minutes ago, rjl said:

1. We're in agreement here - my point was made in response to Isilel's comment further up that all Highsprens would disagree with the idea of a desolation coming as they'd be on board with Nale hence a highspren bonding a younger Szeth wouldn't have thought a desolation was coming.

2. That quote was indeed from when Szeth swore the 3rd ideal (I assume 4th was a typo). BUT my argument was that the tone/feel of that statement implied a longer relationship whereas if Szeth only bonded a highspren after becoming a squire their relationship would have lasted maybe a week so far at most.

3. Seems like we're entirely in agreement on this point - it could be either or both.

Oh, OK.  Not a typo, I definitely thought it was from later on when he swore the 4th Ideal to "cleanse" Shin.  BUt if it happened at the 3rd when he swore to follow Dalinar, that makes sense too.  I had thought it was after more verified Bond-time with the Highspren (ie post-3rd ideal), explaining the implied longer relationship 

Edited August 28, 2019 by Quantus

[rjl]

4 minutes ago, Quantus said:

Oh, OK.  Not a typo, I definitely thought it was from later on when he swore the 4th Ideal to "cleanse" Shin.  BUt if it happened at the 3rd when he swore to follow Dalinar, that makes sense too.  I had thought it was after more verified Bond-time with the Highspren (ie post-3rd ideal), explaining the implied longer relationship 

Szeth hasn't sworn his 4th Ideal - he swore his 3rd (which got the reaction I quoted). Then he said what his crusade for the 4th ideal would be if Dalinar approves of it but didn't formally swear his 4th ideal - perhaps waiting for Dalinar's approval first.

[Quantus]

I dont have OB with me, but that was not my impression and that's not what the Coppermind says.  According to it, Szeth's 4th was very specifically "I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees."  which led to a lot of discussion about what would happen if Dalinar said No, or worse if Dalinar died before he could make a decision, but the implication when it happened was that it was accepted by the spren as his 4th, and if Im not mistaken it still had the typical visual display that seems to happen when a radiant swears a new ideal.   

 

[rjl]

2 hours ago, Quantus said:

I dont have OB with me, but that was not my impression and that's not what the Coppermind says.  According to it, Szeth's 4th was very specifically "I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees."  which led to a lot of discussion about what would happen if Dalinar said No, or worse if Dalinar died before he could make a decision, but the implication when it happened was that it was accepted by the spren as his 4th, and if Im not mistaken it still had the typical visual display that seems to happen when a radiant swears a new ideal.   

 

Oathbringer Chapter 121 page 1198

Quote

"Not yet. I swear to follow the will of Dalinar Kholin. This is my oath."

At the words, snow crystallised around him in the air, then fluttered down. He felt a surge of something. Approval? From the hidden spren who only rarely showed itself to him, even still.

"I believe that your Words have been accepted. Have you chosen your quest for the next Ideal?"

"I will cleanse the Shin of their false leaders, so long as Dalinar Kholin agrees."

"We shall see. You may find him a harsh master."

 

 

The conversation continues but doesn't pick up on that quest/4th ideal again and there is no further mention of the spren.

Edited August 28, 2019 by rjl
Fixed end of quote