Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 21 minutes ago, Karger said: No. We know that they are breeding them and so they are probably breeding them for larger gemstones if they can be bread in such a way. Considering that we only have about two lines in the entirety of the stormlight archive about them and that the knowledge would not be of much use one way or another in any practical way(it takes generations to breed animals for a significant change in population quality). But we don't have anyone saying that is what they are doing, so if it was easy enough to do, they should already be doing it. Since we do not have any mention of them doing it, they must not be doing it nor can they do it. That is the logic you are using about their level of knowledge with chemistry and geology. Because you have not seen them doing it already, they must not be doing it, nor can they do it. 21 minutes ago, Karger said: Considering the majority of those impossibilities were solved in the next few chapters(getting Shallan onto the plains and having her examine a crystallizes) I am convinced that such a statement was hyperbole. Yet Adolin has dealt with a chasmfiend on numerous occasions and views it as an impossibility. Later on he does not even believe that Shallan saw a chasmfiend because: "Shallan, if you'd seen a live one, you'd have surely been killed!" 21 minutes ago, Karger said: Except they soulcast the oil while there and while having a soulcaster that could make oil and plantmater which as I said can make a variety of more explosive substances if you have the chemical knowledge. Read just a few sentences further in that scene and Dalinar states he wants a pyre. Not blow it up. He wants it to burn. 21 minutes ago, Karger said: I think your current methodology is impossible not that the revolution could not happen. Considering that they have a large population, several decent centers of learning, the ability to make food fairly cheaply a worldwide communications network, and a verity of useful magical processes that have yet to be explored I think that they are actually in a pretty good place for one to happen. And I disagree. I do not think it is impossible, and it is certainly not compared to breeding chasmfiends. At least that is my opinion. Clearly as stated multiple times we are speaking past each other and will not see eye to eye on this subject. 1
Karger he/him Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: But we don't have anyone saying that is what they are doing, so if it was easy enough to do, they should already be doing it. Since we do not have any mention of them doing it, they must not be doing it nor can they do it. That is the logic you are using about their level of knowledge with chemistry and geology. Because you have not seen them doing it already, they must not be doing it, nor can they do it. We also don't see them not doing it when it would make sense to do so. I think that is key. At no point would breading better gremfiends(I think they are called) be in any way relevant or helpful. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: "Shallan, if you'd seen a live one, you'd have surely been killed!" But she was not indicating that a Radiant can approach and even survive being close to a casmfiend with considerable less danger(this is two untrained Radiants with limited stormlight or realy just one) we now have access to more. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Read just a few sentences further in that scene and Dalinar states he wants a pyre. Not blow it up. He wants it to burn. Their are more flammable substances as well. Ones that would produce less smoke and as such be safer for the soldiers while still destroying the city. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: And I disagree. I do not think it is impossible, and it is certainly not compared to breeding chasmfiends. At least that is my opinion. Clearly as stated multiple times we are speaking past each other and will not see eye to eye on this subject. I was stating an opinion here as an opinion.
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, Karger said: We also don't see them not doing it when it would make sense to do so. I think that is key. At no point would breading better gremfiends(I think they are called) be in any way relevant or helpful. If it was possible to breed any shelled beast to increase the size of their gemheart, then they would already be doing it. Since they are not, and gemstones are important, for this is key, then they cannot breed them that way. Since they already have domesticated other shelled beasts, and harvest some of them for their gemhearts, then surely they would do the same for chasmfiends. Since they have not, and cleary it is important, then since they have not mentioned doing it, it must be impossible. That is the logic you present regarding chemistry and geology. 3 minutes ago, Karger said: But she was not indicating that a Radiant can approach and even survive being close to a casmfiend with considerable less danger(this is two untrained Radiants with limited stormlight or realy just one) we now have access to more. That sounds an awful like the argument I was putting forward with the heralds, and using the surges, but I was still told my idea is impossible. 3 minutes ago, Karger said: Their are more flammable substances as well. Ones that would produce less smoke and as such be safer for the soldiers while still destroying the city. So because they did not use those flammable substances in that particular instance, other flammable substances are impossible to exist, so they must have not have the knowledge of geology. 3 minutes ago, Karger said: I was stating an opinion here as an opinion. Great, in your opinion synthetic gemstones wouldn't work. I disagree. To each their own. 1
ZenBossanova Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 4 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: If it was possible to breed any shelled beast to increase the size of their gemheart, then they would already be doing it. Since they are not, and gemstones are important, for this is key, then they cannot breed them that way. This is not a strong argument.
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) 17 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: This is not a strong argument. Thank you! That is my point regarding what Karger is saying to my theory. I literally took what he or she said, and plugged in the chasmfiend breeding theory in place of what he or she said regarding the synthetic gems theory. It proves nothing. Karger: "It clearly does not extend to the point where they can easily synthesize gemstones or they would already be doing it" Edited August 5, 2019 by Pathfinder 1
Karger he/him Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: This is not a strong argument. His argument is that this is what my argument boils down to. I disagree. At no point do we interact with any professional animal breeders so how exactly are we supposed to know what they do or do not do in regards to breeding for larger gemhearts. We do however interact with a large quantity of soldiers many of whom would benefit from explosives or plastics that are mysteriously absent if Rosharans have the capacity to create them. 18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Great, in your opinion synthetic gemstones wouldn't work. I disagree. To each their own. Your methods of producing synthetic gemstones will not work in the intimidate future. A bit wordy but I think a necessary alteration. 20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: That sounds an awful like the argument I was putting forward with the heralds, and using the surges, but I was still told my idea is impossible. The Wisdom of the Heralds likely does not include instructions for building gemstones. They were made for compensation by stone age people. The Heralds themselves are currently a bit difficult to interview for my latest article in The Scientific Rosharan. I do not think then any surge will ever allow the creation of gemstones as per sanderson's first law. You might be able to mine them with cohesion but that is about it. Division might work to examine the chemical makeup of gemstones if they have a way to actually understand what they got from it which I do not believe they do. Emeralds for example contain chromium and the first method for positively IDing that was not created until Louis-Nicholas Vauquelin in 1797(see its that easy to give a full googlable name). 28 minutes ago, ElendVenture said: Hello Hi. Welcome to our latest argument.
ElendVenture Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) ok, I am arguing with I lost my flute now so bye!! Also, he admitted that I won... Edited August 5, 2019 by ElendVenture
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) 28 minutes ago, Karger said: His argument is that this is what my argument boils down to. I disagree. At no point do we interact with any professional animal breeders so how exactly are we supposed to know what they do or do not do in regards to breeding for larger gemhearts. We do however interact with a large quantity of soldiers many of whom would benefit from explosives or plastics that are mysteriously absent if Rosharans have the capacity to create them. Considering what I wrote was a quote from your own post, I do not think it is boiling it down. And at no point do we interact with chemists that you state cannot exist. That just because we do not interact with them, they don't exist. So since we do not interact with these professional breeders you mention, then they must not exist. Quote Your methods of producing synthetic gemstones will not work in the intimidate future. A bit wordy but I think a necessary alteration. I disagree. Your method of breeding gemhearts from oversized creatures will not work in the immediate future. Quote The Wisdom of the Heralds likely does not include instructions for building gemstones. 1. how do you know that? 2. the wisdom of the heralds includes antiseptic and keeping clean to avoid contaminating bodies during surgery. That is from Pailah the surgeon. I do not think chemistry and geology would not be included among the wisdom of the heralds from Battar. But you seem to have access to information none of us have to know definitively what the wisdom of the heralds was and was not. Quote They were made for compensation by stone age people. The Heralds themselves are currently a bit difficult to interview for my latest article in The Scientific Rosharan. Yet you are entirely confident to say what they do and do not know. Quote I do not think then any surge will ever allow the creation of gemstones as per sanderson's first law. What does that have to do with employing surges to aid in crystal creation? Going off of Urithiru you have television screens, elevators, environmental controls, teleportation, and food production but creating pressure and heat enough to create crystals is the problem? Quote You might be able to mine them with cohesion but that is about it. Division might work to examine the chemical makeup of gemstones if they have a way to actually understand what they got from it which I do not believe they do. Having not seen how precisely division works, nor cohesion, I think it is a tall statement of yours to assert how they do work and what they cannot do. Quote Emeralds for example contain chromium and the first method for positively IDing that was not created until Louis-Nicholas Vauquelin in 1797 And surprise surprise, I already responded to this point multiple times. But to save myself time I will just bullet point it: 1. Scadrial to Metals 2. Roshar to Gems You are entitled to your opinion of breeding greatshells. I am entitled to mine of synthetic gemstones. Edited August 5, 2019 by Pathfinder 1
Karger he/him Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I disagree. Your method of breeding gemhearts from oversized creatures will not work in the immediate future. I think it will take a few decades but that your method will take the better part of a century. 18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: 1. how do you know that? 2. the wisdom of the heralds includes antiseptic and keeping clean to avoid contaminating bodies during surgery. That is from Pailah the surgeon. I do not think chemistry and geology would not be included among the wisdom of the heralds from Battar. But you seem to have access to information none of us have to know definitively what the wisdom of the heralds was and was not. First Vev is the surgeon not Pailah. Second the Wisdom seems to be designed for stone age people who would not much benefit from chemistry. Basic sanitation during surgery or just in general (like bathing) is a yes. I fail to see why the Heralds would include instructions for things that even if they knew how to do would be of no benefit to the people during or between the last desolations. It is also a bit hard to believe that Wisdom of limited/no use would be preserved over four millennia. 23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Yet you are entirely confident to say what they do and do not know. Not at all. I am a bit more confident in what they would or would not tell people given that they have limited time to prepare instructions. 23 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: What does that have to do with employing surges to aid in crystal creation? Going off of Urithiru you have television screens, elevators, environmental controls, teleportation, and food production but creating pressure and heat enough to create crystals is the problem? Sanderson's second law excuse me Limitations > Powers. Remember why he got rid of saltrification? Having surges able to create the stuff needed to power surges is problematic. 26 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Having not seen how precisely division works, nor cohesion, I think it is a tall statement of yours to assert how they do work and what they cannot do. We have Khriss's descriptions. While not technically proven by direct observation they are by research done by the greatest cosmre scholar. I am inclined to believe her. 27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And surprise surprise, I already responded to this point multiple times. But to save myself time I will just bullet point it: 1. Scadrial to Metals 2. Roshar to Gems Let me summarize my opinion like so. It only makes sense for Roshar to have that kind of knowledge of gemstones if they already are good enough to make gemstones. Scadrial is a different case and by comparing them you are making the fallacy of analogy.
cometaryorbit Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 On 8/2/2019 at 10:44 AM, Pathfinder said: As I mentioned earlier, Scadrial was pre-industrial yet they developed metallurgy that far exceeded what they should have had at that point. They really weren't pre-industrial, though. Scadrial started out as early industrial ('early steam age, about to hit the railroad era': first couple decades of the 19th century, before railroads took over from canals) then some, but not all, technologies of that level were suppressed. By the time Allomancy showed up, while they didn't have modern atomic theory, they had more than enough metallurgy to have a basis to work from. Roshar doesn't have the level of materials science or chemistry to provide that kind of basis with synthetic gemstones. It'd be even worse since gemstones are primarily biological products on Roshar. I doubt a fabrial industrial revolution needs anything really epic like synthetic gemstones or herding chasmfiends, though. Increased production of gemheart-producing livestock (much more practically sized, less aggressive animals than chasmfiends) should be enough. (Oathbringer mentions "gumfrems, a kind of chull-like beast" raised for their gemhearts.) Fabrial gems don't seem to necessarily have to be very big - the Navani's notebook page with the emotion bracelet shows the gems as much smaller than the wearer's fingernails. Chasmfiend gemhearts are huge, one unusually large one in WOK is described as the size of a man's head, though most seem to be able to be held in one hand. https://coppermind.net/wiki/File:Navani2.jpg 2
Isilel Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 (edited) On 1.8.2019 at 0:44 AM, Karger said: I meant raising Chasmfiends specifically for gemhearts. It will still be several hundred years for Rosharans to figure out the kind of synthesis you are talking about. Remember they still belive everything is made of the 10 essences. So, both of you guys are ignoring the obvious source of gems needed to fuel the Industrial Revolution - mining. After all, what happened to all the _previous_ generations of chasmfiends? Where are their gemhearts now? We have seen in the Kaza interlude lots and lots of large gemstones just lying around on Aimia, which is rather odd, because shouldn't they be covered by crem? And in other parts of Roshar they likely are. I imagine that Rosharans will figure out a way to scout such deposits from Shadesmar and mine them in the physical world. And yea, given the Urithiru pillar as an example, experiments with melting gemstones to try to make bigger ones artificially are sure to follow. That's not to say that breeding animals producing gemhearts is out of the question either - I strongly suspect that it was a part of why the ancient Radiants were associated with larkins/lanceryn. Of course, lanceryn were valuable for a number of reasons, but it wouldn't be surprised if providing a steady supply of large gemhearts was one of them. On 1.8.2019 at 11:55 PM, Karger said: Assuming you are not at a level where you can easily make gunpowder (which Roshar does not have) I see no practical use for any type of chemical knowledge beyond some rudimentary techene. Gunpowder would be that much more dangerous to work with on Roshar, though, and I doubt that it could be used to produce firearms. And also, the most belligerent and martial cultures were until now deeply invested in their hierarchical structures and shard supremacy, so they probably wouldn't even have looked into something that allowed the plebes so much easy destructive potential. After all, we have iRL examples of cultures turning away from technological and military advances because they felt that those would destroy the status quo - China, Japan, etc., so this is quite realistic. Anyway, I suspect that gunpowder is going to make an appearance in SA, as an explosive only, and one of the few things that would allow normal people to hurt the Fused. Heralds versus the Fused failed and Radiants versus the Fused failed, because neither could have been everywhere at once and it is much more difficult to effectively defend a large territory and infrastructure than to attack it. Only if the normal soldiers can hold ground against the Fused, even if it is more like fighting tanks with hand grenades, can the usual civilzation-destroying paradigm of the Desolations be overcome, IMHO. 17 hours ago, Karger said: I for one would not let any doctor prior to the 19th century practice surgery on me as I would likely get infected and die. You would have been so dead with the 19th century Western surgery! In some ways, the doctors were more dangerous then than their earlier counterparts, as they had routine opportunites to practice with cadavers, but often didn't wash their hands or instruments before switching to a live patient. Which is why childbed fever, among other things, was such a killer for hospital deliveries. This doctor's story: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ignaz_Semmelweis is quite eye-opening (and hair-raising!) in that respect. Horrifyingly enough, the principles of aseptics and antiseptics and infectious theory of disease didn't become widespread until the early 20th century - i.e. iRL creation of synthetic gems actually _preceded_ our understanding of principles contained in the "Wisdom of the Heralds", which you say is aimed at "stone-age people". History is funny like that! Edited August 6, 2019 by Isilel 3
Pathfinder Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 16 hours ago, Karger said: I think it will take a few decades but that your method will take the better part of a century. As at this point all we are doing is repeating ourselves and not adding anything to the conversation, instead of responding I will merely say In your opinion breeding chasmfiends makes sense. In my opinion synthetic gemstones makes sense. To each their own. 16 hours ago, Karger said: First Vev is the surgeon not Pailah. Second the Wisdom seems to be designed for stone age people who would not much benefit from chemistry. Basic sanitation during surgery or just in general (like bathing) is a yes. I fail to see why the Heralds would include instructions for things that even if they knew how to do would be of no benefit to the people during or between the last desolations. It is also a bit hard to believe that Wisdom of limited/no use would be preserved over four millennia. That is your prerogative, that you are perfectly entitled to. As we have no idea what else is included in the wisdom of the heralds, I believe it is erroneous to act as if you know what is excluded from it. But once again: In your opinion breeding chasmfiends makes sense. In my opinion synthetic gemstones makes sense. To each their own. 16 hours ago, Karger said: Not at all. I am a bit more confident in what they would or would not tell people given that they have limited time to prepare instructions. That is great that you are confident. I am confident in my own assertions. In your opinion breeding chasmfiends makes sense. In my opinion synthetic gemstones makes sense. To each their own. 16 hours ago, Karger said: Sanderson's second law excuse me Limitations > Powers. Remember why he got rid of saltrification? Having surges able to create the stuff needed to power surges is problematic. It is not the gemstones themselves that power the fabrials. The gemstones just allow access. Soulcasting can create metal that can be burned in allomancy. Gemstones are no different. But once again: In your opinion breeding chasmfiends makes sense. In my opinion synthetic gemstones makes sense. To each their own. 16 hours ago, Karger said: We have Khriss's descriptions. While not technically proven by direct observation they are by research done by the greatest cosmre scholar. I am inclined to believe her. So what you stated is mentioned by Khriss? Because I am very sure it is not, but please provide the quotes of her research that support this. Thanks! Otherwise: In your opinion breeding chasmfiends makes sense. In my opinion synthetic gemstones makes sense. To each their own. 16 hours ago, Karger said: Let me summarize my opinion like so. I believe that if Roshar had that kind of knowledge of gemstones if they already are good enough to make gemstones. I believe that Scadrial is a different case and by comparing them you are making the fallacy of analogy. So I edited your quote for accuracy and bolded what I edited. As I have said, I believe they would experiment and research discovering the potential due to the chasmfiends dying out, and then it would explode due to the necessity. I believe you are using a logical fallacy. That if we do not see it, it does not exist. Further this is a logical fallacy as your criteria for "seeing it" is supremely narrow and suits whatever you feel it needs to at the moment. So it is self validating. But regardless, once again: In your opinion breeding chasmfiends makes sense. In my opinion synthetic gemstones makes sense. To each their own. 9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: They really weren't pre-industrial, though. Scadrial started out as early industrial ('early steam age, about to hit the railroad era': first couple decades of the 19th century, before railroads took over from canals) then some, but not all, technologies of that level were suppressed. By the time Allomancy showed up, while they didn't have modern atomic theory, they had more than enough metallurgy to have a basis to work from. Roshar doesn't have the level of materials science or chemistry to provide that kind of basis with synthetic gemstones. It'd be even worse since gemstones are primarily biological products on Roshar. I already mentioned the inclusion of the surges they now have access to, the availability of the technology of Urithiru, and two of the 10 heralds. I believe this, combined with Roshar's complete dependence on gemstones could lead them to develop synthetic gemstones. WoB says Scadrial should not have their level of knowledge of metallurgy at their time period, yet they do due to the dependence on metal. I posted the WoB. Please check it out. Otherwise I guess the same here: In my opinion synthetic gemstones makes sense. To each their own. 9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: I doubt a fabrial industrial revolution needs anything really epic like synthetic gemstones or herding chasmfiends, though. Increased production of gemheart-producing livestock (much more practically sized, less aggressive animals than chasmfiends) should be enough. (Oathbringer mentions "gumfrems, a kind of chull-like beast" raised for their gemhearts.) This all started because the OP suggested that a fabrial industrial revolution would occur. Karger then stated it would not because gemstones would break, limiting the production of fabrials. I suggested that synthetic gemstones could become a thing eventually, which would enable the revolution. Then Karger felt breeding chasmfiends would be a more logical pursuit. That is where we disagree. I posted earlier that via WoB, size of the gemheart is related to the size of the shelled beast. So in order to get the gemstones the size posited, you would need something the size of a chasmfiend. Using Karger's logic as to why synthetic gemstones can't be a thing, if it was possible to breed chull-like beasts to produce larger and larger gemhearts, then why haven't they? They have everything they need already. Why isn't it a thing? Surely breeding chull like beasts for gemhearts the size of your head would be far more lucrative. But here is another thought. Why does one have to preclude another? Why can't research into both occur? Why is only one a possibility? But I guess I will go back to In your opinion breeding chasmfiend/chull like beasts makes sense. In my opinion synthetic gemstones makes sense. To each their own. 9 hours ago, cometaryorbit said: Fabrial gems don't seem to necessarily have to be very big - the Navani's notebook page with the emotion bracelet shows the gems as much smaller than the wearer's fingernails. Chasmfiend gemhearts are huge, one unusually large one in WOK is described as the size of a man's head, though most seem to be able to be held in one hand. https://coppermind.net/wiki/File:Navani2.jpg The larger the gemstone, the more stormlight it can use, the greater the effect of the fabrial. So the bigger fabrial machines and etc are going to need large gemstones. 5 hours ago, Isilel said: So, both of you guys are ignoring the obvious source of gems needed to fuel the Industrial Revolution - mining. After all, what happened to all the _previous_ generations of chasmfiends? Where are their gemhearts now? We have seen in the Kaza interlude lots and lots of large gemstones just lying around on Aimia, which is rather odd, because shouldn't they be covered by crem? And in other parts of Roshar they likely are. I imagine that Rosharans will figure out a way to scout such deposits from Shadesmar and mine them in the physical world. And yea, given the Urithiru pillar as an example, experiments with melting gemstones to try to make bigger ones artificially are sure to follow. That's not to say that breeding animals producing gemhearts is out of the question either - I strongly suspect that it was a part of why the ancient Radiants were associated with larkins/lanceryn. Of course, lanceryn were valuable for a number of reasons, but it wouldn't be surprised if providing a steady supply of large gemhearts was one of them. I do think research into both could occur. My one issue with mining is it would still be a depreciating resource, especially when it is confirmed by Brandon that the culling of the chasmfiends will be seen to have an effect, while synthetic gemstones would be more environmentally sound. So I could see mining and breeding being phased out in favor of synthetic gemstones, but I see no reason why research could not develop in both fields. 2
Karger he/him Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 32 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The larger the gemstone, the more stormlight it can use, the greater the effect of the fabrial. So the bigger fabrial machines and etc are going to need large gemstones. Yes. For stuff like factories and mass production. 33 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: It is not the gemstones themselves that power the fabrials. The gemstones just allow access. Soulcasting can create metal that can be burned in allomancy. Gemstones are no different. But once again: Yes but my point is that Sanderson would not want a group of radiants to have a way of easily producing a large number of gemstones. Doing so would remove to many limitations as their are usually highstorms every few days. 35 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: As I have said, I believe they would experiment and research discovering the potential due to the chasmfiends dying out, and then it would explode due to the necessity. I believe you are using a logical fallacy. That if we do not see it, it does not exist. Um. That does not realy get to the point does it? I say that I see no evidence for something therefore I am not going to include it in any theory what you are saying is that it is if I see something I view as similar somewhere else that it is acceptable to include it. I think our argument realy boils down to weather the logistical problems of breeding a chasmfiend are greater then the problems of figuring out how to produce synthetic gemstones. Both sets of problems are theoretically solvable but a smart enough and determined enough leader with enough resources behind them. My main beef with your theory is something that has actually always bothered me. People assuming that scientists (like myself) can just come up with the necessary knowledge to do what you want us to if your are desperate enough and push hard enough. Sometimes we just can't. You just have to figure out how to get what you want by whatever existing slow, tedious, or dangerous methods exist. Their is a billion dollar need for a fully reusable spacecraft and Elon Musk has been working for years to build one with a team of some of the worlds smartest people and quite a bit of money and he has not gotten there. The knowledge has not been created. We are still taking some fairly crude one time use rockets into space. While he has made some progress we still have quite far to go. Don't just assume that we can get you some place because you want us to. 1
Pathfinder Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 2 minutes ago, Karger said: Yes but my point is that Sanderson would not want a group of radiants to have a way of easily producing a large number of gemstones. Doing so would remove to many limitations as their are usually highstorms every few days. Again, it is the stormlight that fuels them and then runs out. That is the limitation. You can soulcast allomantically viable metals. If creating gemstones was a problem for that reason, the same would stand for metals, yet it most certainly is a thing. 2 minutes ago, Karger said: Um. That does not realy get to the point does it? I say that I see no evidence for something therefore I am not going to include it in any theory what you are saying is that it is if I see something I view as similar somewhere else that it is acceptable to include it. The two societies developments to me are analogous. They are not to you. I feel that is part of the reason I think synthetic gemstones can be a thing. You disagree. To each their own. 2 minutes ago, Karger said: I think our argument realy boils down to weather the logistical problems of breeding a chasmfiend are greater then the problems of figuring out how to produce synthetic gemstones. If that was the case, then you wouldn't be saying synthetic gemstones are impossible. What I am arguing is that synthetic gemstones are possible. You are stating they are impossible. I think that is a very important distinction. 2 minutes ago, Karger said: Both sets of problems are theoretically solvable but a smart enough and determined enough leader with enough resources behind them. My main beef with your theory is something that has actually always bothered me. People assuming that scientists (like myself) can just come up with the necessary knowledge to do what you want us to if your are desperate enough and push hard enough. Sometimes we just can't. I disagree. I do not believe that is what I am saying at all. 2 minutes ago, Karger said: You just have to figure out how to get what you want by whatever existing slow, tedious, or dangerous methods exist. Their is a billion dollar need for a fully reusable spacecraft and Elon Musk has been working for years to build one with a team of some of the worlds smartest people and quite a bit of money and he has not gotten there. Do spaceships make up our money? Do they run our lighting? Do they enable heating in winter and cooling in summer? Could they potentially (I say potentially because these are surge fabrials I am referring to) heal people of grievous injuries? Do they aid in the use of incredible powers that when applied to tech change the face of the planet? No they do not. Can we use the technology developed to create such ships to be applicable for other things? Sure! But what I am talking about is the power source that fuels that space ship. I am talking about strengthening the materials to make that ship able to break atmo. I am talking the ability to cause that ship to fly weightlessly through the air. Those technologies matter. But to the general population right here, right now, they don't see space as a necessity. In the abstract we are destroying the planet and look to colonizing other planets, but the global view does not. What the global view is, is trying to preserve our current planet. Which resulted in across the globe research into conservation projects. The ocean clean up project. Solar panels. Did you hear about solar roadways for awhile? Another is painting roads white instead of black. Wind farms. A city in India produced a way to have 100 percent waste removal/recycling. The perception right now is fixing what we have, so the technology is going in that direction. Gemstones are an extremely important part of Rosharan culture, society, and economy. Start removing that resource, and the perception is going to zero in on it. In my opinion. But to each their own. 1
Karger he/him Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The two societies developments to me are analogous. They are not to you. I feel that is part of the reason I think synthetic gemstones can be a thing. You disagree. To each their own. My point is that two analogous things do not necessarily follow the same behavior. IE humans and wolves are both mammalian life forms but one produces young one at a time and the other has litters. 17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: If that was the case, then you wouldn't be saying synthetic gemstones are impossible. What I am arguing is that synthetic gemstones are possible. You are stating they are impossible. I think that is a very important distinction. Synthetic gemstones are quite clearly possible(they exist and I have seen them). My point is that they are not a path that Rosharans are likely to take in the immediate future. I am of the all things are possible even the impossible school. I never meant to even imply that something was impossible. I was attempting to state probabilities. 27 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Do spaceships make up our money? Considering money is expectation based I do not think this matters. In Thaylena they are already using credit. 29 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Do they run our lighting? Do they enable heating in winter and cooling in summer? They could. Space based solar is an incredibly efficient source of energy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power. 20 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The ocean clean up project. Solar panels. Did you hear about solar roadways for awhile? Another is painting roads white instead of black. Wind farms. A city in India produced a way to have 100 percent waste removal/recycling. The perception right now is fixing what we have, so the technology is going in that direction. But none of those technologies are insta fixes. Most of the ones you have listed were theorized about if not actually made in the mid to early 20th century(the first solar panel was produced in the early 19th century!). Sure we are only seeing them be produced on a wide scale now. What is happening is actually a good example of my proposal. Taking an existing technology(breading animals) and overcoming the logistical and financial problems to do it one a different scale or in a more efficient manner.
Pathfinder Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 1 hour ago, Karger said: My point is that two analogous things do not necessarily follow the same behavior. IE humans and wolves are both mammalian life forms but one produces young one at a time and the other has litters. And if we were speaking of whether or not a human had an exoskeleton, then using a wolf who is also a mammal as an indicator would be a good analogous example. 1 hour ago, Karger said: Synthetic gemstones are quite clearly possible(they exist and I have seen them). My point is that they are not a path that Rosharans are likely to take in the immediate future. I am of the all things are possible even the impossible school. I never meant to even imply that something was impossible. I was attempting to state probabilities. Yet you stated it was impossible in prior posts. I disagree. I see synthetic gemstones as a possible path Rosharans could take. To each their own. 1 hour ago, Karger said: Considering money is expectation based I do not think this matters. In Thaylena they are already using credit. Except on Roshar it is literally used as their money. Credit is a new concept, and it is still based on a reserve of gemstones that actually exist. 1 hour ago, Karger said: They could. Space based solar is an incredibly efficient source of energy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-based_solar_power. But you still need the technology of solar panels first. 1 hour ago, Karger said: But none of those technologies are insta fixes. Most of the ones you have listed were theorized about if not actually made in the mid to early 20th century(the first solar panel was produced in the early 19th century!). Sure we are only seeing them be produced on a wide scale now. You keep conflating and exaggerating what I write. You act like I am saying tomorrow someone is going to say "ah ha! synthetic crystals! all our woes are solved!". I am not saying that. 1 hour ago, Karger said: What is happening is actually a good example of my proposal. Taking an existing technology(breading animals) and overcoming the logistical and financial problems to do it one a different scale or in a more efficient manner. Actually that is not your proposal. Your proposal would be breeding whales in captivity (which doesn't work in the real world. watch the movie "blackfish") for their oil, while trying to breed dolphins and porpoises to begin producing oil where originally they did not. You are saying an alternative synthetic version of the fuel source would not be pursued (synthetic oil, corn oil, etc/synthetic gemstones) because they could just breed chasmfiends, or other shelled beasts/whales and other marine life. On earth once we realized the environmental damage we were creating, we began to research alternatives. And if anyone else would like to bring up cows again, then why are we doing research into impossible burgers, and beyond burgers? Why are we looking into lab created forms of protein? Soy milk?
Karger he/him Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Actually that is not your proposal. Your proposal would be breeding whales in captivity (which doesn't work in the real world. watch the movie "blackfish") for their oil, while trying to breed dolphins and porpoises to begin producing oil where originally they did not. You are saying an alternative synthetic version of the fuel source would not be pursued (synthetic oil, corn oil, etc/synthetic gemstones) because they could just breed chasmfiends, or other shelled beasts/whales and other marine life. On earth once we realized the environmental damage we were creating, we began to research alternatives. And if anyone else would like to bring up cows again, then why are we doing research into impossible burgers, and beyond burgers? Why are we looking into lab created forms of protein? Soy milk? 21 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And if we were speaking of whether or not a human had an exoskeleton, then using a wolf who is also a mammal as an indicator would be a good analogous example. Please read this https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_analogy and do some research on the problems of basing your argument and proof in analogy. It is a useful tool for explanation but is woefully problematic to base an argument on it and is in fact in many ways less valid then extrapolation or exaggeration (those things that annoy you so much when I do them).
Pathfinder Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 13 minutes ago, Karger said: Please read this https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/False_analogy and do some research on the problems of basing your argument and proof in analogy. It is a useful tool for explanation but is woefully problematic to base an argument on it and is in fact in many ways less valid then extrapolation or exaggeration (those things that annoy you so much when I do them). I disagree that they are substantially different. I think the analogy fits.
Karger he/him Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 24 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I disagree that they are substantially different. I think the analogy fits. That is fine but it is an opinion not a valid argument.
Pathfinder Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 6 minutes ago, Karger said: That is fine but it is an opinion not a valid argument. So is this entire thread. Breeding chasmfiends is your opinion. Not thinking synthetic gemstones can be a thing is your opinion. Me thinking synthetic gemstones can be a thing is an opinion. Me thinking chasmfiends cannot be bred is an opinion. An opinion can be supported with a valid argument. I think the arguments I have used to support my opinion are valid. You disagree. To each their own.
Karger he/him Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 37 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: So is this entire thread. Breeding chasmfiends is your opinion. Not thinking synthetic gemstones can be a thing is your opinion. Me thinking synthetic gemstones can be a thing is an opinion. Me thinking chasmfiends cannot be bred is an opinion. An opinion can be supported with a valid argument. I think the arguments I have used to support my opinion are valid. You disagree. To each their own. Ideally an opinion should not be supported with another opinion.
Pathfinder Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 1 minute ago, Karger said: Ideally an opinion should not be supported with another opinion. You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine.
Karger he/him Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 Just now, Pathfinder said: You are entitled to your opinion, and I am entitled to mine. Yes. That is a true statement.
Pathfinder Posted August 6, 2019 Posted August 6, 2019 Just now, Karger said: Yes. That is a true statement. Thank you. Now back to the thread. The fabrial revolution I think would revolutionize Roshar. Gravitation fabrials alone would have huge ramifications.
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