Pathfinder Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 1 minute ago, Karger said: This can be easily fixed by having some people follow one around for a while. They know what they don't know and can figure out answers by Observation. They know that Chasmfiends breed, that they mate, and that they can learn. Follow.....a chasmfiend......around......with highstorms a thing......Sure that sounds super easy. 1 minute ago, Karger said: But we already new about electricity and the Lighbulb before whaling got to the point where the global population was reduced to the point where we needed it. This is also a fallacy of analogy. The reason whaling continued as long as it did was a failure of humans to organize and produce the necessary amounts of electricity to power lightbulbs on a wide scale. It was an issue of finance, politics and resource management not science. The necessary technology to make a lightbulb existed in the 18th century. Whaling peaked in the mid 19th. Electricity was not what replaced whale oil. It was the petroleum industry and vegetable oils that did. When whaling became an issue, other means were researched and took off. I see no fallacy. Adolin and Shallan discussed how the constant chasmfiend hunts are going to have a negative impact. Brandon confirmed this via WoB that it already has and we will see the impact soon. It is mentioned repeatedly throughout the books how other great shells have been harvested to extinction (or apparent extinction). The reason why the shattered plains became such a big thing is they harvested their own great shells to extinction, so they jumped to another. Much like our history with whales. They have the scientific background, they have the focus, they have the means (surges), and they have the intel (heralds). I see no reason why synthetic gems could not be a thing. But as you said we are talking past each other. Clearly we will not see eye to eye. 1 minute ago, Karger said: All you have to do to make metal is heat a specific kind of rock. This requires no education or imagination or even knowledge of the natural sciences. If you put a kind of rock in a pan over the fire it melts and purifies. The earliest humans figured this out years ago. If their is a specific use for this purified rock we look into more efficient and better ways of heating and find ways to do it better(the more gas in the car analogy) we heat different kinds of rocks at different heats and observe the results. We take these results and mix them together. Here is the WoB regarding Scadrial and metallurgy yafeshan I am space nerd with a love of fantasy, so; Why is Scadrial prime example planet to invent space travel. Is its allomancy/ferruchemy/hemalurgy combination more suitable for that kind of technology or do they have other incentives to invent space travel other than regular technology development? Is it related to the intervention of unknown metal/shard/beings we saw? Brandon Sanderson There are a bunch of reasons. The most technologically advanced of the planets (Taldain) is extremely isolationist because of its Shard, while Harmony is very interested in the progress of his people. Scadrial has an advanced understanding of metallurgy, and for many years was quietly open to visitors from across the cosmere. In the modern era, that has enhanced. It's a much safer place to visit than, say, Sel, Threnody, or First of the Sun. There are other reasons, too, which we'll get into as the world progresses. Having some prominent cosmere-aware people pulling strings behind the scenes is a big help. If you know other worlds are out there, and are populated, then you're more likely to push toward space travel. Stormlight Three Update #6 (Feb. 8, 2017) 1 minute ago, Karger said: On Scadrail we get better at this because we know getting better at this is important and we have real demonstrations as to why(alomancers). Also TLR could have given them instructions on how to do everything and probably did. Individual people may have made small alterations via trail and error to see if they could get something slightly better but by and large when it came to metallurgy everyone was likely looking at the answer key and just working retroactively. Even if not. Their is nothing technically complex about era 1 scadrail. You don't have to know much about anything to make steel(via formal education I mean). This is called Techne an art or craft that can be practiced without any knowledge of the natural world. Chemistry of the level we are talking about is not like that. The conditions you have to meet in order to synthesize a gemstone are highly specific. Heat and pressure too low nothing happens too high and you get the wrong substance. The odds of getting their without some kind of theory to guide you are astronomical. Hence you need a theory. Currently the Rosharans do not even approach that theory. If I was Navani and I desperately needed to synthesis gemstones I would review everything I knew about gemstones and likely conclude they they are made by a biological possess and so my best option is to study greatshells via autopsy. Not work on heating different kinds of stone. So I am going to highlight your suppositions that you are presenting as fact, when we have no evidence of any of that. Secondly, gemstones provide illumination, money, and power their technology as well as radiants use them for stormlight storage. No difference with metal and allomancers. If anything there is a greater reason for Roshar. 1 minute ago, Karger said: Necessity may be the mother of invention but it cannot spark genius overnight. We realy need to get fusion working but no one has figured it out despite the fact that the person who figures it out will be a billionaire, solve the world's energy problem, and space travel easy. You are exaggerating what I wrote. I never said overnight. I said it would accelerate. 1
ZenBossanova Posted August 2, 2019 Author Posted August 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Karger said: If I was Navani and I desperately needed to synthesis gemstones I would review everything I knew about gemstones and likely conclude they they are made by a biological possess and so my best option is to study greatshells via autopsy. Not work on heating different kinds of stone. This is a great point. There is a distinct lack of volcanism and geological activity on Roshar, yet they have an abundance of gems. It would probably be more feasible and economic to optimize those processes. For instance, start with a creature (smaller than a chasmfeind) that produces a tiny gemheart, and breed it for growing big ones. With Surges of progression and other Cultivation related Surges, this is a far easier way to get gemstones. But also, Navani will need to make her fabrials more power efficient, and get more usefulness out of smaller stones.
Pathfinder Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) 14 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: This is a great point. There is a distinct lack of volcanism and geological activity on Roshar, yet they have an abundance of gems. It would probably be more feasible and economic to optimize those processes. For instance, start with a creature (smaller than a chasmfeind) that produces a tiny gemheart, and breed it for growing big ones. With Surges of progression and other Cultivation related Surges, this is a far easier way to get gemstones. But also, Navani will need to make her fabrials more power efficient, and get more usefulness out of smaller stones. Size of gemheart is directly related to the size of the creature. WoB below. Size of creature is dependant on symbiosis with the correct spren. Also WoB below. Questioner I was wondering if the Chasmfiends have... like their own Gemhearts... Brandon Sanderson Yes. Questioner It's probably not a coincidence that emeralds that can hold most of the Stormlight. So are Chasmfiends, do they take energy from Stormlight? Brandon Sanderson Yes, yes, yes, yes. That's part. Questioner So there is a huge energy source there, they can supply it with eating so... Brandon Sanderson It is actually most beneficial during their metamorphisis, as you'll notice that the chrysalises are not as big as they get, and so yeah. They depend on the Stormlight and they depend on the Spren that they are bonded to keep them from crushing themselves. So Chasmfiends couldn't exist off world for multiple reasons. Questioner I'm guessing that for Chasmfiends the absorption of Stormlight is different because there is a whole shell thing that is thick. Brandon Sanderson Yup, yup. Leipzig Book Fair (March 24, 2017) Yata In Oathbringer will we discover how the type of a gemheart is decided? (what polestone you will find once the gemheart is gathered) I have this doubt for months and probably is a really not relevant think but I have the constant feel of "I am missing something" Brandon Sanderson You're asking why certain species have emerald gemhearts, while others have a different type of gemstone? Yata In the end yes. Actually, I was even unsure if a specific species had a specific polestone as gemheart. In the books is never esplicity stated but (in-world) nobody ever asked what kind of polestone is retrieved after the death of a chasmfield (as if it was obvious fact) but I had not actually confirmations until now Brandon Sanderson Note that there are some species that vary. But many do not, which is what made chasmfiends so valuable. Stormlight Three Update #4 (Sept. 30, 2016) Yados Between the Parshendi and the Alethi harvesting gemhearts, how long has it been since a chasmfiend got to finish pupating? Brandon Sanderson Aha. I wondered if someone would ask that. Much like whaling in our own world, there is a big ecological price building for what is going on here. You are right to worry about this. 17th Shard Forum Q&A (Sept. 26, 2012) Questioner Is it only greatshells that have gemhearts, or do all crustaceans on Roshar have some sort of gem inside? And if it is only greatshells then are their unique decayspren related to this fact? Brandon: They're not only greatshells, but not ever crustacean has a gemheart, at least not of the style that would be of any relevance to you. Some have the same sort of chemistry going on in their body, they're just too small to have it coalesce into a gemheart. And the gemheart is related to how-- particularly the greatshells, can grow to get so big. Salt Lake ComicCon FanX 2016 (March 26, 2016) Edit: there is also this point Jasnah makes about how when they thought the lanceryn was dead, they thought that was the last of gemhearts that size. Way of Kings page 526 "You should have seen our shock when we discovered where they'd gotten them. When the lanceryn died off during the scouring of Aimia, we thought we'd seen the last gemhearts of large size. And yet here was another great-shelled beast with them, living in a land not too distant from Kholinar itself. " Edited August 2, 2019 by Pathfinder
Karger he/him Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Follow.....a chasmfiend......around......with highstorms a thing......Sure that sounds super easy. Tag it with a pair of fabrial attractors. Have a Radiant stick one or two on with a strong glue. Easy enough. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: You are exaggerating what I wrote. I never said overnight. I said it would accelerate. True but my point was that the acceleration could not yet happen as they were not there yet. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: So I am going to highlight your suppositions that you are presenting as fact, when we have no evidence of any of that. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: So I am going to highlight your suppositions that you are presenting as fact, when we have no evidence of any of that. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: On Scadrail we get better at this because we know getting better at this is important I think this is a reasonable supposition. "Two metals you do not know about and should look into." This would make me look into metals as I know they exist and could prove useful. We have actual examples of why people are looking for new metals in Secret History and the point I am trying to make is that there is no logical jump necessary. Just melting different kinds of rock and combining what you get at different Ratios and then looking at what you get. From this you may learn but it does not require any previous understanding beyond rudimentary mathematics. You have an incentive, a procedure and not that many resources are required. The same is not true for what you are proposing. Where you do not have any procedure to follow you require a tun of resources and while your intensive exists their are other ways to go about it that initially seem easier. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Individual people may have made small alterations via trail and error to see if they could get something slightly better but by and large when it came to metallurgy everyone was likely looking at the answer key and just working retroactively. Even if not. I agree this was supposition. I also said so. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Their is nothing technically complex about era 1 scadrail. You don't have to know much about anything to make steel(via formal education I mean). You think that the average European blacksmith in the middle ages had a formal education or any scientific understanding of what he was doing? 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Chemistry of the level we are talking about is not like that. Its interesting how the individuals involved in synthesizing the first gemstones were all men of education. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: The odds of getting their without some kind of theory to guide you are astronomical If something needs highly specific conditions to happen and you do not know those conditions then you hitting on those specific conditions is highly unlikely. Think of how many attempts it would take you to bake a cake if you had never herd of cooking before. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Currently the Rosharans do not even approach that theory We have no evidence that anywhere on Roshar humans have anything beyond the chemical understanding of the early renaissance(they understand pressure how to work steel and the existence of indivisible partials). To make a ruby they would need aluminum oxide which is actually producible but it would be difficult as the reaction on the outside of any sample protects the inside. They believe that aluminum must be soulcast however so the amounts producible is limited. The real problem is chromium which they would also need but do not as far as we know know exists(chromium would of no use militarily so I doubt the Heralds would mention it). They would also have to find a way to isolate it in its metallic form via a difficult chemical possess and I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of combining it with aluminum in powered form and melting them in a high pressure environment unless they first new that gemstones were made from it. Even then the trace minerals you would have to add are highly specific and they would all have to be identified despite the fact that no one seems to know what they are or how to go about it. 2 hours ago, Pathfinder said: I would review everything I knew about gemstones and likely conclude they they are made by a biological possess and so my best option is to study greatshells via autopsy. Not work on heating different kinds of stone. This is technically supposition but honestly if you were in Navani's shoes what would you do? 1
Pathfinder Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 14 minutes ago, Karger said: Tag it with a pair of fabrial attractors. Have a Radiant stick one or two on with a strong glue. Easy enough. As per the scene with Kaladin, Shallan, and the chasmfiend, I very much disagree. What fabrial are you referring to? The detection one with Rysn? That required a tripod to be set up, and was extreme fragile? Pairing fabrials? Conservaton of force is maintained, you would still need a way to move something the size of a chasmfiend. If you mean the fabrials that draw water towards itself, how is that going to help in tracking/following a chasmfiend? You going to be able to repel the giant boulders flying around and the wind while tracking a chasmfiend and still somehow make sure it is unaware of your presence so you can study how it functions in the wild and then replicate that? 14 minutes ago, Karger said: True but my point was that the acceleration could not yet happen as they were not there yet. And I disagree 14 minutes ago, Karger said: I think this is a reasonable supposition. "Two metals you do not know about and should look into." This would make me look into metals as I know they exist and could prove useful. We have actual examples of why people are looking for new metals in Secret History and the point I am trying to make is that there is no logical jump necessary. Just melting different kinds of rock and combining what you get at different Ratios and then looking at what you get. From this you may learn but it does not require any previous understanding beyond rudimentary mathematics. You have an incentive, a procedure and not that many resources are required. The same is not true for what you are proposing. Where you do not have any procedure to follow you require a tun of resources and while your intensive exists their are other ways to go about it that initially seem easier. First of all, the Lord Ruler did what he could to limit technological advance, and hide information. Secondly Wax talks about how alloys are interesting because even the tiniest addition of something outside can completely change the composition of an alloy. You can have a magnetic one, become inert. You can have an inert one, become magnetic. You can have steel, but without the correct allomantic percentages, you will kill the guy paying you for making it. Certain metals require various levels of heat in order to make. Why do you think bronze was a thing for so long? Again, I disagree. The same is very true for Roshar. The first person to experiment with making synthetic gemstones did so by accident by melting rubies. Where else have we seen gemstones seemingly melted or fused together? Oh wait! The pillar in the bottom of Urithiru. Navani mentions how amazing it would be if that pillar got infused. There is a theory right there. Hmmmm gemstones can clearly be fused together into a larger core. Lets figure out how they was done! The radiants clearly could do it. Lets try experimenting with the surges! We are already coming up with ideas using gravitation. Why not division from Malata? Why not pressure from Kaladin? You are entitled to disagree, but this is not open and shut as you posit. It is entirely possible. 14 minutes ago, Karger said: You think that the average European blacksmith in the middle ages had a formal education or any scientific understanding of what he was doing? You mean the type of formal education all light eyed women and ardents get on Roshar? 14 minutes ago, Karger said: Its interesting how the individuals involved in synthesizing the first gemstones were all men of education. And it is interesting how the discovery came about by accident due to melting rubies. 14 minutes ago, Karger said: If something needs highly specific conditions to happen and you do not know those conditions then you hitting on those specific conditions is highly unlikely. Think of how many attempts it would take you to bake a cake if you had never herd of cooking before. So highly unlikely that again, it happened by accident without any intention for that to be a result. 14 minutes ago, Karger said: We have no evidence that anywhere on Roshar humans have anything beyond the chemical understanding of the early renaissance(they understand pressure how to work steel and the existence of indivisible partials). To make a ruby they would need aluminum oxide which is actually producible but it would be difficult as the reaction on the outside of any sample protects the inside. They believe that aluminum must be soulcast however so the amounts producible is limited. The real problem is chromium which they would also need but do not as far as we know know exists(chromium would of no use militarily so I doubt the Heralds would mention it). They would also have to find a way to isolate it in its metallic form via a difficult chemical possess and I don't think anyone in their right mind would think of combining it with aluminum in powered form and melting them in a high pressure environment unless they first new that gemstones were made from it. Even then the trace minerals you would have to add are highly specific and they would all have to be identified despite the fact that no one seems to know what they are or how to go about it. Aluminum is mine-able. It is just difficult to do so without electrolysis, which is why soulcasting it is easier. I gave an example above as to why melting it would come up. Yes it would be identified, because that is what experimentation is. The beginning of synthetic gemstones began with the melting of rubies, and then them re solidifying. The subsequent experiments involved throwing in different chemicals, and levels of heat to create different gemstones of various quality. If once not working was enough to give up, then synthetic gemstones would not be a thing in our world nonetheless any other. 14 minutes ago, Karger said: This is technically supposition but honestly if you were in Navani's shoes what would you do? Doesn't matter what I would do. What matters is what she is doing. Which is researching into the surges, and ancient fabrial tech to see how they work and what can be done with it.
Karger he/him Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: As per the scene with Kaladin, Shallan, and the chasmfiend, I very much disagree. While it is sleeping or at least unaware of the flying human above it. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: The detection one with Rysn? That will work. Add something extremely detectable to the fiend and follow it around with one. Alternatively an extraordinarily week pairing fabrial that used stormlight very slowly could spin toward the tracker. Either way considering the vast numbers of new fabrials being made regularly I do not believe that this would be too hard. Alternatively you could just track the thing. They tend to damage shalebark and they are kind of big and probably leave tracks. Kaladin sees evidence of one in WoR and identifies it. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: You mean the type of formal education all light eyed women and ardents get on Roshar? You miss the point. You do not need a formal education to smelt bronze so anyone can do it. You do need a formal education to make gemstones. I know there are educated people on Roshar. I simply do not believe that they know enough yet to do what you suggest any time soon just as the fact that basically all US citizens get a formal education does not mean that we can turn matter into energy at a 90% efficiency rate. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: And it is interesting how the discovery came about by accident due to melting rubies. Accidental? Who gave you that idea? Marc Antoine Auguste Gaudin was trying deliberately to make rubies based on his theoretical work in chemistry. He was overly obsessed with symmetry but his work also lead to several major advancements. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: luminum is mine-able. It is just difficult to do so without electrolysis, which is why soulcasting it is easier Not on Roshar. Remember no volcanic activity? Also I am refering to Shallan's flashback scene. I know she is not reliable but "aluminum... ...which can only be made by soulcasting" 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: First of all, the Lord Ruler did what he could to limit technological advance, and hide information True but he also made sure that certain people did have some technology. The canals and citadels for example. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Where else have we seen gemstones seemingly melted or fused together? Oh wait! The pillar in the bottom of Urithiru. Navani mentions how amazing it would be if that pillar got infused. We actually have no idea what that is. Sure it looks like a gemstone but remember Sanderson uses an unreliable narrator. I know we have several theories but until we have confirmation I can't use that as information. 1 hour ago, Pathfinder said: Doesn't matter what I would do. What matters is what she is doing. Which is researching into the surges, and ancient fabrial tech to see how they work and what can be done with it. As far as she(and we) currently knows you can't make gemstones. Edited August 2, 2019 by Karger 1
Pathfinder Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 34 minutes ago, Karger said: While it is sleeping or at least unaware of the flying human above it. That will work. Add something extremely detectable to the fiend and follow it around with one. Alternatively an extraordinarily week pairing fabrial that used stormlight very slowly could spin toward the tracker. Either way considering the vast numbers of new fabrials being made regularly I do not believe that this would be too hard. Alternatively you could just track the thing. They tend to damage shalebark and they are kind of big and probably leave tracks. Kaladin sees evidence of one in WoR and identifies it. So all these magical new fabrials will totally make breeding chasmfiends easier, but no way shape or form could possibly be used to develop or research creating synthetic crystals. 34 minutes ago, Karger said: You miss the point. You do not need a formal education to smelt bronze so anyone can do it. You do need a formal education to make gemstones. I know there are educated people on Roshar. I simply do not believe that they know enough yet to do what you suggest any time soon just as the fact that basically all US citizens get a formal education does not mean that we can turn matter into energy at a 90% efficiency rate. And that is great that you believe that. I disagree. Remember saying we are speaking past each other? 34 minutes ago, Karger said: Accidental? Who gave you that idea? Marc Antoine Auguste Gaudin was trying deliberately to make rubies based on his theoretical work in chemistry. He was overly obsessed with symmetry but his work also lead to several major advancements. Dr. Clark was the first one, and he did so by melting rubies, not realizing what he did when they merged into one bead. 34 minutes ago, Karger said: Not on Roshar. Remember no volcanic activity? Also I am refering to Shallan's flashback scene. I know she is not reliable but "aluminum... ...which can only be made by soulcasting" Shallan as well as others mentioned metals and ores being mined from the earth. That was the whole reason for her stealing Jasnah's soulcaster. To create false veins of ore and minerals for her house to mine to regain solvency. So metal and ores in the earth on Roshar are a thing. 34 minutes ago, Karger said: True but he also made sure that certain people did have some technology. The canals and citadels for example. Yet the metals were most definitely regulated as per the novels and WoB. Remember the hidden caches with metals written on them that no one knew about? 34 minutes ago, Karger said: We actually have no idea what that is. Sure it looks like a gemstone but remember Sanderson uses an unreliable narrator. I know we have several theories but until we have confirmation I can't use that as information. Doesn't matter what it actually is. You see a giant gemstone fused of multiple gemstones. You know the surges helped create it. Surges you now have access to. You know the pillar does something. Find ways to replicate it. Maybe melt gemstones together. Boom. 34 minutes ago, Karger said: As far as she(and we) currently knows you can't make gemstones. And yet there is a giant fused gemstone looking pillar that might be able to do something. Seems like something to try. Oh wait melting did something different than expected. what is this? maybe if we experiment further.....in other words the same thing that happened in real life.
Karger he/him Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 13 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: So all these magical new fabrials will totally make breeding chasmfiends easier, but no way shape or form could possibly be used to develop or research creating synthetic crystals. Not that we have seen. Rosharans know about the birds and the beads but their knowledge of geology is more limited. 15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Dr. Clark was the first one, and he did so by melting rubies, not realizing what he did when they merged into one bead. I can't find a reference to this person. 16 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Shallan as well as others mentioned metals and ores being mined from the earth. That was the whole reason for her stealing Jasnah's soulcaster. To create false veins of ore and minerals for her house to mine to regain solvency. So metal and ores in the earth on Roshar are a thing. Sure but not aluminum if that lone shark can be believed. 17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Yet the metals were most definitely regulated as per the novels and WoB. Remember the hidden caches with metals written on them that no one knew about? Two kinds of information. Restricted and taught nothing wrong with that. 18 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Doesn't matter what it actually is. You see a giant gemstone fused of multiple gemstones. You know the surges helped create it. Surges you now have access to. You know the pillar does something. Find ways to replicate it. Maybe melt gemstones together. Boom. I am not sure if you can melt gemstones with the surges. They are created from free investiture and investiture tends to resit investiture. 19 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: And yet there is a giant fused gemstone looking pillar that might be able to do something. Seems like something to try. Oh wait melting did something different than expected. what is this? maybe if we experiment further.....in other words the same thing that happened in real life. Shallan's assumption is that the Radiants gathered and then fused the gemstones together not that they made them from scratch. 1
Pathfinder Posted August 2, 2019 Posted August 2, 2019 43 minutes ago, Karger said: Not that we have seen. Rosharans know about the birds and the beads but their knowledge of geology is more limited. And you have proof of this? 43 minutes ago, Karger said: I can't find a reference to this person. Dig some more. If you can just state levels of knowledge of cultures without anything to back it up, why should i have to present the sources of my own research? 43 minutes ago, Karger said: Sure but not aluminum if that lone shark can be believed. Yet the WoB you mentioned yourself says otherwise 43 minutes ago, Karger said: Two kinds of information. Restricted and taught nothing wrong with that. The society on whole did not have access to the information. It most certainly matters. 43 minutes ago, Karger said: I am not sure if you can melt gemstones with the surges. They are created from free investiture and investiture tends to resit investiture. The gemstones themselves are nothing special. They are gemstones. Just like the metals themselves are nothing special. What they allow access to, what they act as a gateway to is the investiture. the type of gemstone and color is what acts as the gateway. Just like metals. So gemstones can be melted down, because they are normal gemstones. 43 minutes ago, Karger said: Shallan's assumption is that the Radiants gathered and then fused the gemstones together not that they made them from scratch. Right, and again, as I said, it appears that the gemstones were melted together. So one possible way to replicate the pillar? Melt gemstones together. Oh look we have the surge of division from Malata for that. Lets see what happens when we melt a bunch of gemstones. Let us examine the precipitate. What could that lead to? I am saying that would lead to experimentation, much like what happened in the real world, towards synthetic gemstones.
ZenBossanova Posted August 3, 2019 Author Posted August 3, 2019 On 8/2/2019 at 11:33 AM, Pathfinder said: Brandon: They're not only greatshells, but not ever crustacean has a gemheart, at least not of the style that would be of any relevance to you. Some have the same sort of chemistry going on in their body, they're just too small to have it coalesce into a gemheart. And the gemheart is related to how-- particularly the greatshells, can grow to get so big. Salt Lake ComicCon FanX 2016 (March 26, 2016) Yes, this is how gemhearts are naturally related to creature size, but with breeding, and Surges like Progression, we should be able to make creatures, or even plants, that produce large gemhearts. Even here on Earth we have animals and plants that do things to unnatural levels. Roshar is uniquely suited to Cultivating new breeds. 1
Karger he/him Posted August 4, 2019 Posted August 4, 2019 On 8/2/2019 at 7:14 PM, Pathfinder said: And you have proof of this? "It’s idiocy to try to prove a negative"(Jasnah Kohlin). I can't prove that they do not know something about geology. I think that we have considerable evidence that Rosharans know about the birds and the bees. On 8/2/2019 at 7:14 PM, Pathfinder said: Dig some more. If you can just state levels of knowledge of cultures without anything to back it up, why should i have to present the sources of my own research? Can you at least give me his first name? I actually want to find this person as I have never herd of him before. On 8/2/2019 at 7:14 PM, Pathfinder said: Right, and again, as I said, it appears that the gemstones were melted together. So one possible way to replicate the pillar? Melt gemstones together. Oh look we have the surge of division from Malata for that. Lets see what happens when we melt a bunch of gemstones. Let us examine the precipitate. What could that lead to? I am saying that would lead to experimentation, much like what happened in the real world, towards synthetic gemstones. If I was Navani and understood the world by the ten surges I would likely assume that the pillar was created by cohesion not by division. As far as we have seen division breaks stuff apart it does not apply heat the burning you see if the excess atoms recombining with the oxygen in the air. 1
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) On 8/3/2019 at 9:10 PM, Karger said: "It’s idiocy to try to prove a negative"(Jasnah Kohlin). I can't prove that they do not know something about geology. I think that we have considerable evidence that Rosharans know about the birds and the bees. Except I did in fact show a quote from a book where geology is among their required education. I have referenced scenes that prove they do mine for ores. And I have referenced scenes where they do forge. So to say they have no understanding of geology is far fetched to me. So if you feel they lack in geology versus every other scientific study, then I would like some sort of proof to back up your assertion, especially when that assertion is being made to say what I put forward is impossible. Quote Can you at least give me his first name? I actually want to find this person as I have never herd of him before. Type synthetic gemstones. Type how were synthetic gemstones made. Type history of synthetic gemstones. I am sorry if at times I get tired of presenting research, only for it to be discarded by statements with nothing to back it up. I am requesting in our discussion, that you bring more book quotes and WoB. Thank you. Quote If I was Navani and understood the world by the ten surges I would likely assume that the pillar was created by cohesion not by division. As far as we have seen division breaks stuff apart it does not apply heat the burning you see if the excess atoms recombining with the oxygen in the air. None of the radiants Navani has access to at the moment has cohesion, so it would not make sense for her to: 1. know how it works 2. reason that that was how it was made that way 3. disregard other avenues of research in favor of the one option that as 1 and 2 mentioned, she does not understand nor have access to (if Taln regains lucidity, and if Taln bonds a stoneward spren, or if they find Taln's vanished honorblade, or if a stoneward pops up, or if Venli ends up a willshaper and joins team kholin early, then I could see Navani experimenting with cohesion. but presently none of those are true) On 8/3/2019 at 2:47 PM, ZenBossanova said: Yes, this is how gemhearts are naturally related to creature size, but with breeding, and Surges like Progression, we should be able to make creatures, or even plants, that produce large gemhearts. Even here on Earth we have animals and plants that do things to unnatural levels. Roshar is uniquely suited to Cultivating new breeds. Then I guess we read that WoB differently. I read it as there are creatures that are too small, that even if they could create a gemheart, because of their size they are unable to. That in order to form a gemheart of a large size, the body creating it has to be a large size. I would liken it to the size of any other organ. A whale understandably has a larger heart than a human. It needs that size to maintain its bodily functions. Conversely an enlarged heart, is actually a dangerous condition for humans, and can result in death. So to me, even if this could potentially occur (which as per my reading of the WoB, I believe it cannot), then we also do not know the health issues an enlarged gemheart taking up space where normally it did not, would cause. Storms, let us even taking out the ethics of it. Forget if the animal suffers. We have no idea if the body could maintain the enlarged gemheart long enough for it to reach the desired size before the creature dies. Keep in mind the size of a gemheart (at least the extra big one that was cut out of the chasmfiend at the hunt) is the size of a man's head. Please refer to the earlier picture I showed at the size contrast between a person's head and the size of a chasmfiend. We are talking about a size differential similar to an adult human body to a kidney stone. So I personally do not see creatures the size of chulls surviving a breeding regime that would result in them producing gemhearts of that size. Edited August 5, 2019 by Pathfinder 1
Karger he/him Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 34 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: So if you feel they lack in geology versus every other scientific study, then I would like some sort of proof to back up your assertion, especially when that assertion is being made to say what I put forward is impossible. I did not say they have no knowledge of geology. I know that they forge and that they mine I was making a comparison. I think that the concept of breading animals is simpler then the concept of inventing entirely new ways of thinking about the universe. We know that Rosharans breed animals axhounds, chulls, and horses for example(I do not think looking up a WoB will be necessary to prove that). We also know that Rosharans do have some knowledge of chemistry, geology, and physics and as you mentioned it is covered in an educated Rosharan's education. We do not know what this course of study entails(I for one would not let any doctor prior to the 19th century practice surgery on me as I would likely get infected and die). We also do know that their knowledge of chemistry is less then ours. The question then becomes how much less? We have seen no indication that they have any kind of explosive more portent then oil. If one existed I have a hard time believing that Dalinar, Kaladin, or Adolin would not have mentioned it by now. Explosives would not be hard to make for any competent chemist especially considering the high oxygen content of Roshar's atmosphere. The Chinese figured out gunpowder in the 11th century. Their would be plenty of civilian and military uses for it so the incentive you keep mentioning is there. The materials exist and are actually fairly easy to come by in nature yet the Rosharan chemist. 34 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Type synthetic gemstones. Type how were synthetic gemstones made. Tye history of synthetic gemstones. I tried all three and got nothing relevant. Please find me a first name.
ZenBossanova Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 55 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Then I guess we read that WoB differently. I read it as there are creatures that are too small, that even if they could create a gemheart, because of their size they are unable to. That in order to form a gemheart of a large size, the body creating it has to be a large size. I would liken it to the size of any other organ. A whale understandably has a larger heart than a human. It needs that size to maintain its bodily functions. Conversely an enlarged heart, is actually a dangerous condition for humans, and can result in death. So to me, even if this could potentially occur (which as per my reading of the WoB, I believe it cannot), then we also do not know the health issues an enlarged gemheart taking up space where normally it did not, would cause. Let's compare it to different sizes of dog breeds - yes, breeds on the extreme ends have trouble, or just shorter lives. But what was once the extreme end, years ago is now common place, and relatively healthy. Perhaps a better comparison would be milk cows. A Holstein cow will produce 9 gallons of milk daily, and I seem to recall even higher numbers. They would not produce this naturally, but with breeding they can.
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Karger said: I did not say they have no knowledge of geology. I know that they forge and that they mine I was making a comparison. You know they mine, yet you said in a prior post they did not. Quote I think that the concept of breading animals is simpler then the concept of inventing entirely new ways of thinking about the universe. That is exaggeration and conflation. That is why it is frustrating for me to present quotes and WoB, and then you state things like this Quote We know that Rosharans breed animals axhounds, chulls, and horses for example(I do not think looking up a WoB will be necessary to prove that). All the same, would love to see the quote and or WoB. Quote We also know that Rosharans do have some knowledge of chemistry, geology, and physics and as you mentioned it is covered in an educated Rosharan's education. We do not know what this course of study entails(I for one would not let any doctor prior to the 19th century practice surgery on me as I would likely get infected and die). You say we do not know what this study entails, and yet feel confident enough to state what it does not entail. So if you are so sure it does not include it, then please show evidence from the book or WoB that says as much Quote We also do know that their knowledge of chemistry is less then ours. We do not know that. Quote The question then becomes how much less? We have seen no indication that they have any kind of explosive more portent then oil. If one existed I have a hard time believing that Dalinar, Kaladin, or Adolin would not have mentioned it by now. Explosives would not be hard to make for any competent chemist especially considering the high oxygen content of Roshar's atmosphere. The Chinese figured out gunpowder in the 11th century. Their would be plenty of civilian and military uses for it so the incentive you keep mentioning is there. The materials exist and are actually fairly easy to come by in nature yet the Rosharan chemist. Again conflation. Because you do not see one thing, then by extension it means all of this, when you do not have any references to back it up. Quote I tried all three and got nothing relevant. Please find me a first name. When you can provide all I asked for, I will be happy to. @ZenBossanova And those animals have health problems, but as I said, take out the ethics of it. I think a better analogy would be foie gras. The forceful enlargement of the goose's fatty liver to extreme proportions. The geese frequently die before they get near the size the farmers are aiming at. Now require the liver to be triple that size. Have someone put a balloon in your chest where it doesn't belong, and have it steadily inflate. What happens to your organs? Your ribcage? The entire chest cavity? Brandon is saying because of their size, they cannot make one, so their body has evolved to not have to account for its inclusion. If you find a way to breed it to occur, the chest cavity is going to get more and more distorted. I personally do not see it as viable. But as this is all theoretical, to each their own. Edited August 5, 2019 by Pathfinder 1
ZenBossanova Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: ZenBossanova And those animals have health problems, but as I said, take out the ethics of it. I think a better analogy would be foie gras. The forceful enlargement of the goose's fatty liver to extreme proportions. The geese frequently die before they get near the size the farmers are aiming at. Now require the liver to be triple that size. Have someone put a balloon in your chest where it doesn't belong, and have it steadily inflate. What happens to your organs? Your ribcage? The entire chest cavity? Brandon is saying because of their size, they cannot make one, so their body has evolved to not have to account for its inclusion. If you find a way to breed it to occur, the chest cavity is going to get more and more distorted. I personally do not see it as viable. But as this is all theoretical, to each their own. I am unfamiliar with goose breeds, but I doubt they are as well selected for milk cows. Cows are just more numerous and have been selected for better and for longer. If you breed long enough, their bodies will make the proper compensation for larger gemheart. Again, we have the literal Shard of Cultivation here. She has already bred the entire ecosystem. She could easily do this.
Karger he/him Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: That is exaggeration and conflation. That is why it is frustrating for me to present quotes and WoB, and then you state things like this How is it exaggerating to say that I think it easier to breed things then it is to make new systems of knowledge? Every earth civilization bread animals in some capacity. It took a global civilization to figure out how to synthesize gemstones. Which is easier it terms of thought if not planning, resources and management? 14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: All the same, would love to see the quote and or WoB. We see Shallan talk about raising Chull batches in her date with Adolin WoR chapter 49. She also makes the suggestion that raising casmfiend batches is possible and Adolin does not take this suggestion as ridiculous. 22 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: We do not know that. If we must be pedantic we can say that we have deduced that their knowledge of chemistry is less then ours. Otherwise I am wondering about the lack of plastics(and that is just to start with). 25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Again conflation. Because you do not see one thing, then by extension it means all of this, when you do not have any references to back it up. This is actually extrapolation. A necessary exercise when trying to deduce from a limited amount of information clearly not designed for the purpose of conveying the messages we are looking for. Pat's Fantasy Hotlist Interview (May 25, 2010) #7 Share Copy Patrick Regarding The Way of Kings, given the fact that the synopsis doesn't shed much light on what the tale is about, what can you tell us about the book and the rest of the Stormlight Archive sequence? You know, a little something to whet your fans' appetite! Brandon Sanderson I'm actually preparing a blog post on this. I've had a very tough time describing The Way of Kings. I've been working on this book for many, many years. Parts of it I can trace back 15, 17 years ago to my very early days as an aspiring writer in my teens. Beyond that, I'm planning a very large story that spans many books. So what this book is and means to me is a lot more extensive than with other books I've worked on. Because of that it's really defied my ability to describe it. What can they expect? Well, it's about the length of Lord of Chaos. It will be much more epic and larger in scope than anything I have published so far on my own. There's a whole lot more worldbuilding to it—I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 words of worldbuilding notes, scattered across several documents, that I'm now coalescing into a wiki. I don't know that this is new information, but the story of the Stormlight Archive revolves around ten orders of knights, each of whom had their own magics and abilities, who fell thousands of years ago for reasons no one understands. Some say they betrayed mankind, others say they were destroyed, others say they were charlatans all along. The Stormlight Archive deals with the history of these knights, discovering what happened to them. It also deals, perhaps, with their redemption. Another big theme has to do with the onset of a magical industrial revolution, so to speak. Think of this as Renaissance-era technology where people are discovering how to harness magic and use it in practical ways. I've always wanted to do a story about the dawning of something like the Age of Legends in the Wheel of Time books. 1
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 7 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: I am unfamiliar with goose breeds, but I doubt they are as well selected for milk cows. Cows are just more numerous and have been selected for better and for longer. If you breed long enough, their bodies will make the proper compensation for larger gemheart. Again, we have the literal Shard of Cultivation here. She has already bred the entire ecosystem. She could easily do this. I still feel foie gras would be the better example as it is the artifical enlargement of an organ to sizes that far exceed what is natural for the animal for harvesting. Such an enlargement that results in rampant health problems for the animal. I thought the scenario we were working with was as of the end of oathbringer? If we are talking about anything on Roshar, including a literal shard, then anything is possible. Cultivation could create gemstones for kicks. Won't need to breed or synthesize. Or how about just have the stormfather directly fuel all the fabrials always with investiture.
Karger he/him Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 3 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I still feel foie gras would be the better example as it is the artifical enlargement of an organ to sizes that far exceed what is natural for the animal for harvesting. Such an enlargement that results in rampant health problems for the animal. I thought the scenario we were working with was as of the end of oathbringer? If we are talking about anything on Roshar, including a literal shard, then anything is possible. Cultivation could create gemstones for kicks. Won't need to breed or synthesize. Or how about just have the stormfather directly fuel all the fabrials always with investiture. I think the point might be that things on Roshar grow faster and healthier due to Cultivation's residency there without any direct action from the shard herself.
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 Just now, Karger said: How is it exaggerating to say that I think it easier to breed things then it is to make new systems of knowledge? Every earth civilization bread animals in some capacity. It took a global civilization to figure out how to synthesize gemstones. Which is easier it terms of thought if not planning, resources and management? it is exaggerating when you say "make new systems of knowledge", when you already said we do not know the extent of their knowledge in that field. Just now, Karger said: We see Shallan talk about raising Chull batches in her date with Adolin WoR chapter 49. She also makes the suggestion that raising casmfiend batches is possible and Adolin does not take this suggestion as ridiculous. Quote and Page please! Just now, Karger said: If we must be pedantic we can say that we have deduced that their knowledge of chemistry is less then ours. Otherwise I am wondering about the lack of plastics(and that is just to start with). You deduced all this based on the apparent absence of things, but you just said you cannot prove a negative. Just because we have not see it yet does not mean it does not exist yes? Just now, Karger said: This is actually extrapolation. A necessary exercise when trying to deduce from a limited amount of information clearly not designed for the purpose of conveying the messages we are looking for. There is extrapolation and then conflation. The statements you are making are not reasonable to me based on the information we have. Just now, Karger said: Pat's Fantasy Hotlist Interview (May 25, 2010) #7 Share Copy Patrick Regarding The Way of Kings, given the fact that the synopsis doesn't shed much light on what the tale is about, what can you tell us about the book and the rest of the Stormlight Archive sequence? You know, a little something to whet your fans' appetite! Brandon Sanderson I'm actually preparing a blog post on this. I've had a very tough time describing The Way of Kings. I've been working on this book for many, many years. Parts of it I can trace back 15, 17 years ago to my very early days as an aspiring writer in my teens. Beyond that, I'm planning a very large story that spans many books. So what this book is and means to me is a lot more extensive than with other books I've worked on. Because of that it's really defied my ability to describe it. What can they expect? Well, it's about the length of Lord of Chaos. It will be much more epic and larger in scope than anything I have published so far on my own. There's a whole lot more worldbuilding to it—I have somewhere in the neighborhood of 200,000 words of worldbuilding notes, scattered across several documents, that I'm now coalescing into a wiki. I don't know that this is new information, but the story of the Stormlight Archive revolves around ten orders of knights, each of whom had their own magics and abilities, who fell thousands of years ago for reasons no one understands. Some say they betrayed mankind, others say they were destroyed, others say they were charlatans all along. The Stormlight Archive deals with the history of these knights, discovering what happened to them. It also deals, perhaps, with their redemption. Another big theme has to do with the onset of a magical industrial revolution, so to speak. Think of this as Renaissance-era technology where people are discovering how to harness magic and use it in practical ways. I've always wanted to do a story about the dawning of something like the Age of Legends in the Wheel of Time books. I already mentioned this. Scadrial has technology in metallurgy far exceeding what they should have considering their technological Era, because of the importance of metal in their society. I am saying it would make sense to me that Roshar would have technology further along regarding gemstones far exceeding what they should have considering their technological Era, because of the importance of gemstones in their society. 1
ZenBossanova Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 2 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I still feel foie gras would be the better example as it is the artifical enlargement of an organ to sizes that far exceed what is natural for the animal for harvesting. Such an enlargement that results in rampant health problems for the animal. The problem with foie gras, is that there is not enough incentive to carefully breed, because they are not eaten as often as milk is drunk. It really is a niche thing. Cows have enlarged utters, and it doesn't cause half the problems you see with foie gras.
Karger he/him Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 8 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: it is exaggerating when you say "make new systems of knowledge", when you already said we do not know the extent of their knowledge in that field. It clearly does not extend to the point where they can easily synthesize gemstones or they would already be doing it. As such they need a new method for doing it. As such they would be creating a new method. 9 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Quote and Page please! “All I’m saying,” Shallan continued, “is that it’s worth thinking about and studying. What would it be like if you could start raising chasmfiends, growing them to juveniles in batches like men raise chulls?" Ebook so no page number sorry. 17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: You deduced all this based on the apparent absence of things, but you just said you cannot prove a negative. Just because we have not see it yet does not mean it does not exist yes? Yes but Occam's razor. The simplest explanation for why we have not seen something that would be eminently useful in the hands of people in a situation with the means to acquire it is that it does not exist. If they had any explosive easily producible beyond oil they would have used it at the Rift. Remember Dalinar was going for as much destruction as easily as possible and wanted to burn the city to the ground. Plenty of oil or plant based explosives exist but he did not use them. Even if I can't prove they do not exist I can still find evidence that they do not. 25 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: There is extrapolation and then conflation. The statements you are making are not reasonable to me based on the information we have. Please don't take this the wrong way but at this point I am not sure that either of us are being reasonable. I think the best thing to do at this point would be to call for outside arbitration if we actually want to settle the debate. Verification of a claim by an independent authority is often a good demonstration that your thinking is wrong.
ZenBossanova Posted August 5, 2019 Author Posted August 5, 2019 39 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: The Stormlight Archive deals with the history of these knights, discovering what happened to them. It also deals, perhaps, with their redemption. Another big theme has to do with the onset of a magical industrial revolution, so to speak. Think of this as Renaissance-era technology where people are discovering how to harness magic and use it in practical ways. I've always wanted to do a story about the dawning of something like the Age of Legends in the Wheel of Time books. Regardless of how we can get more gemstones, Brandon is explicitly pointing out that Roshar is going to have a "magical industrial revolution". We are just arguing how they are going to do it. It might be, that you keep your lit spheres for running your appliances, as if the amount of money you have, determines how much "electricity" you can get from a highstorm.
Pathfinder Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 1 hour ago, ZenBossanova said: The problem with foie gras, is that there is not enough incentive to carefully breed, because they are not eaten as often as milk is drunk. It really is a niche thing. Cows have enlarged utters, and it doesn't cause half the problems you see with foie gras. France loves eating foie gras. It is only rare in the United States, and other select countries that have outlawed the practice as inhumane. In France there are still numerous farms that do so daily. Utters are not internal organs. At least that is my rationale. 48 minutes ago, Karger said: It clearly does not extend to the point where they can easily synthesize gemstones or they would already be doing it. As such they need a new method for doing it. As such they would be creating a new method. There is a shelled animal that is raised for its meat and the heliodors it produces to soulcast meat. If breeding larger creatures for larger gemhearts was easy, or if breeding shelled animals to create larger and larger gemhearts was easy, then clearly they would already be doing it. So since we have not seen them doing so, or speaking of such, clearly it must be impossible. See the issue with that logic? 48 minutes ago, Karger said: “All I’m saying,” Shallan continued, “is that it’s worth thinking about and studying. What would it be like if you could start raising chasmfiends, growing them to juveniles in batches like men raise chulls?" Ebook so no page number sorry. Little further in the same exact scene: "Just a small list of impossibilities" 48 minutes ago, Karger said: Yes but Occam's razor. The simplest explanation for why we have not seen something that would be eminently useful in the hands of people in a situation with the means to acquire it is that it does not exist. If they had any explosive easily producible beyond oil they would have used it at the Rift. Remember Dalinar was going for as much destruction as easily as possible and wanted to burn the city to the ground. Plenty of oil or plant based explosives exist but he did not use them. Even if I can't prove they do not exist I can still find evidence that they do not. Considering the rains from highstorms, maybe oil is the best for an army to carry. They did not originally intend to burn the Rift. Perhaps the oil is for other uses, and Dalinar got the idea to use it for that. One does not preclude the other. Just because they didn't use an explosive you have in your mind, does not mean it does not exist, or is impossible. 30 minutes ago, ZenBossanova said: Regardless of how we can get more gemstones, Brandon is explicitly pointing out that Roshar is going to have a "magical industrial revolution". We are just arguing how they are going to do it. It might be, that you keep your lit spheres for running your appliances, as if the amount of money you have, determines how much "electricity" you can get from a highstorm. I agree. All I am saying is one way I could see them going. I was then told by Karger it is impossible. So I was stating why I do not think it is impossible. I whole heartily agree. They already do that to a degree. They rotate infused and dun spheres as lighting in highways behind cages. Money lenders have cages for them to be infused during a highstorm, and charge a nominal fee to infuse them for you. Their entire economy is dependent on gemstones. Soon their entire technology will be dependent on them, if it isn't already. 2
Karger he/him Posted August 5, 2019 Posted August 5, 2019 7 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: There is a shelled animal that is raised for its meat and the heliodors it produces to soulcast meat. If breeding larger creatures for larger gemhearts was easy, or if breeding shelled animals to create larger and larger gemhearts was easy, then clearly they would already be doing it. So since we have not seen them doing so, or speaking of such, clearly it must be impossible. See the issue with that logic? No. We know that they are breeding them and so they are probably breeding them for larger gemstones if they can be bread in such a way. Considering that we only have about two lines in the entirety of the stormlight archive about them and that the knowledge would not be of much use one way or another in any practical way(it takes generations to breed animals for a significant change in population quality). 14 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: "Just a small list of impossibilities" Considering the majority of those impossibilities were solved in the next few chapters(getting Shallan onto the plains and having her examine a crystallizes) I am convinced that such a statement was hyperbole. 15 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: Considering the rains from highstorms, maybe oil is the best for an army to carry. They did not originally intend to burn the Rift. Perhaps the oil is for other uses, and Dalinar got the idea to use it for that. One does not preclude the other. Just because they didn't use an explosive you have in your mind, does not mean it does not exist, or is impossible. Except they soulcast the oil while there and while having a soulcaster that could make oil and plantmater which as I said can make a variety of more explosive substances if you have the chemical knowledge. 17 minutes ago, Pathfinder said: I agree. All I am saying is one way I could see them going. I was then told by Karger it is impossible. So I was stating why I do not think it is impossible. I think your current methodology is impossible not that the revolution could not happen. Considering that they have a large population, several decent centers of learning, the ability to make food fairly cheaply a worldwide communications network, and a verity of useful magical processes that have yet to be explored I think that they are actually in a pretty good place for one to happen.
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